Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Do you need to believe Jesus is God to be saved?

Greetings again JLB, Alfred Persson and WalterandDebbie,
Do you believe the Angel of the LORD refers to the Father or the Son?
No, an ArchAngel, and in this case most probably Michael the ArchAngel. He is a Messenger of the One God, Yahweh, God the Father. Jesus the Son of God was not yet born.
Don't group me with others. I don't get notified when you respond to me after another poster.
Most of my answers are applicable to all the other members and you have posted too much irrelevant matter.
You missed the logic. Baptized in the name of God, Father Son and Holy Spirit.
Your logic is based on the Trinity and not on the Scriptural revelation concerning the Yahweh Name.
Jesus Christ is Yahweh [God the Son] to the glory of God the Father. (Phil. 2:10-11)
In some contexts the Name Yahweh is applied to Jesus because he represents Yahweh and fulfills the development contained within the Yahweh Name. Plese note, that the whole process of salvation summarised here is to the glory of the One God, Yahweh, God the Father, not to the glory of the supposed Trinity or supposed God the Son.
Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM" (John 8:42, 55-58). .........."And God said to Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you" (Exo.3:14).
I have already stated that John 8:58 should be translated "I am he" and Exodus 3:14 should be translated as "I will be".

Kind regards
Trevor
 
Greetings again JLB, Alfred Persson and WalterandDebbie,

No, an ArchAngel, and in this case most probably Michael the ArchAngel. He is a Messenger of the One God, Yahweh, God the Father. Jesus the Son of God was not yet born.

Most of my answers are applicable to all the other members and you have posted too much irrelevant matter.

Your logic is based on the Trinity and not on the Scriptural revelation concerning the Yahweh Name.

In some contexts the Name Yahweh is applied to Jesus because he represents Yahweh and fulfills the development contained within the Yahweh Name. Plese note, that the whole process of salvation summarised here is to the glory of the One God, Yahweh, God the Father, not to the glory of the supposed Trinity or supposed God the Son.

I have already stated that John 8:58 should be translated "I am he" and Exodus 3:14 should be translated as "I will be".

Kind regards
Trevor
Incorrect, I proved my point syllogistically, using elementary logic. The ability to make sound elementary deductions is a requirement for anyone who wants to read with comprehension and rightly divide God's Word of Truth the Bible:

Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth (2 Tim. 2:15 NKJ)

PS:

The vast majority of the churches represented at the council of Nicea were Trinitarian. Their universal belief in such a complex doctrine just a couple of centuries after Christ, cannot be explained if the doctrine of the Trinity was the invention of a few individuals.

The only way the doctrine would be universally believed throughout the earth by the vast majority of churches, is because the apostles taught it to them.

It doesn't require the fictional character of Sherlock Holmes to make elementary deductions. Just common sense. Every church tried their best to follow apostolic teaching and beware of "innovations"

3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. (Jude 1:3-5 KJV)
 
Last edited:
Greetings again Alfred Persson,
Incorrect, I proved my point syllogistically, using elementary logic. The ability to make sound elementary deductions is a requirement for anyone who wants to read with comprehension and rightly divide God's Word of Truth the Bible
There is such a thing as a faulty syllogism, where some of the factors are ignored, e.g. The Book of Job.
The only way the doctrine would be universally believed throughout the earth by the vast majority of churches, is because the apostles taught it to them.
The fairly rapid development of this error has been and can be traced.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
Greetings again JLB, Alfred Persson and WalterandDebbie,

No, an ArchAngel, and in this case most probably Michael the ArchAngel. He is a Messenger of the One God, Yahweh, God the Father. Jesus the Son of God was not yet born.

Most of my answers are applicable to all the other members and you have posted too much irrelevant matter.

Your logic is based on the Trinity and not on the Scriptural revelation concerning the Yahweh Name.

In some contexts the Name Yahweh is applied to Jesus because he represents Yahweh and fulfills the development contained within the Yahweh Name. Plese note, that the whole process of salvation summarised here is to the glory of the One God, Yahweh, God the Father, not to the glory of the supposed Trinity or supposed God the Son.

I have already stated that John 8:58 should be translated "I am he" and Exodus 3:14 should be translated as "I will be".

Kind regards
Trevor
PS:

The church that endured being burned at the stake, or cast into an arena to be eaten by lions, wouldn't depart from the truth taught by the apostles, because someone had a "new idea". They were "hyper-conservative" and it resulted in the "papacy" as a means to stop "innovations." Unfortunately, that didn't work.

The absurd theory of JWs that Nicaea invented the Trinity is not just improbable, it is infinitesimal. The doctrine of the Trinity is too complex to be an invention of anyone in the historical record. None of the people we are aware of, had the intellectual capacity to "invent it." AND it is impossible to believe those who are being eaten by lions, were following the latest theological fad invented by a schismatic.
 
Greetings again Alfred Persson,

There is such a thing as a faulty syllogism, where some of the factors are ignored, e.g. The Book of Job.

The fairly rapid development of this error has been and can be traced.

Kind regards
Trevor
Trace it for us then. Be specific. A complete itemized list, of each specific trinitarian belief and who it sprang from .
 
Greetings again Alfred Persson,
Trace it for us then. Be specific. A complete itemized list, of each specific trinitarian belief and who it sprang from .
There are most probably a number of Modern Books that deal with this subject. I am the Librarian for our meeting, and in one of my 2nd hand book shop ventures I came across the following book, and I have quoted a few portions:

History of the Dogma of the Deity of Christ by A Reville 1904 (from translation 1905)
Professor of the History of Religion at the College of France.

Page 4: The maxim of Vincent de Leyrins, more boastful than true, ‘the Church, when it employs new terms, never says anything new’, influenced the entire history of Christianity; philosophers and submissive believers were equally satisfied with it.

After a brief summary of the doctrine of the Trinity he says:
Page 9: Such is the doctrine which, having been slowly elaborated, arrived at supremacy in the Christian Church towards the end of the fifth century, and which, after continuing undisputed, excepting in connection with some obscure heresies, for eleven centuries, has been gradually from the sixteenth century losing its prestige, although it is still the professed belief of the majority of Christians.

Page 10: … the religious sentiment … is not in the least alarmed at contradictions; on the contrary, there are times when it might be said that it seeks and delights in them. They seem to strengthen the impression of mystery, an attitude which belongs to every object of adoration.

Speaking of the developments in the second century:
Page 54: … the ‘celestial being’ increasingly supplanted the human being, except among the Jewish-Christians of the primitive type … These firmly maintained the opinion that Jesus was a man, … fully inspired by God … admitted his miraculous conception.

Page 59: The Platonists began to furnish brilliant recruits to the churches of Asia and Greece, and introduced among them their love of system and their idealism. To state the facts in a few words, Hellenism insensibly supplanted Judaism as the form of Christian thought, and to this is mainly owing the orthodox dogma of the deity of Jesus Christ.

Page 60: Hence the rapidity with which a philosophical doctrine of much earlier origin than Christianity, and at first foreign to the Church, was brought into it, and adapted itself so completely to the prevailing Christology as to become identical therewith, and to pass for the belief which had been professed by the disciples from the beginning.

Page 96: There were some Jewish-Christians who admitted without difficulty the miraculous birth of Jesus, but would not hear of his pre-existence.

Page 105: It is curious to read the incredible subtleties by which Athanasius and the orthodox theologians strove to remove the stumbling-block from the history of a dogma which they desired to represent as having been invariable and complete since the earliest days.

Pages 108-109: … the minds of men … either inclined to lay great stress upon the subordination of the Son, in order to keep as close as possible to the facts of Gospel history, or they dwelt strongly upon his divinity, in order to satisfy an ardent piety, which felt as if it could not exalt Christ too highly. From this sprang two doctrines, that of Arius and of Athanasius. In reality, though under other forms, it was a renewal of the struggle between rationalism and mysticism.

Page 115: In reality, Arius, whose character and doctrine have been unjustly vilified by orthodox historians, was stating the ecclesiastical doctrine that had been in common acceptance.

Speaking of the Nicene Creed:
Page 121: … the majority of the council would have preferred a middle course, maintaining the traditional idea of the subordination of the Son to the Father, while ascribing to the Son as much divine attributes as they could without openly passing this limit.

Page 124: Arianism, which had been overcome by the imperial will more than by the free judgement of the bishops, retained its power in the churches.

Page 126: People did not believe at that period in the infallibility of councils. The West alone remained firm in adhesion to the faith of Nicea.

Page 136: The Arian party, representing as it did the opposition to ecclesiastical authority and dogmatising mysticism, was the party generally preferred by the freer minds. It was consequently the least united. For the same reason was it the most opposed to the ascetic, monkish, and superstitious customs which more and more pervaded the church.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
Greetings again JLB, Alfred Persson and WalterandDebbie,

No, an ArchAngel, and in this case most probably Michael the ArchAngel. He is a Messenger of the One God, Yahweh, God the Father. Jesus the Son of God was not yet born.

Most of my answers are applicable to all the other members and you have posted too much irrelevant matter.

Your logic is based on the Trinity and not on the Scriptural revelation concerning the Yahweh Name.

In some contexts the Name Yahweh is applied to Jesus because he represents Yahweh and fulfills the development contained within the Yahweh Name. Plese note, that the whole process of salvation summarised here is to the glory of the One God, Yahweh, God the Father, not to the glory of the supposed Trinity or supposed God the Son.

I have already stated that John 8:58 should be translated "I am he" and Exodus 3:14 should be translated as "I will be".

Kind regards
Trevor
In the OT the word LORD, as in the burning bush,
always refers to God Father.

(as asked by JLB to you re who the angel represented speaking to Moses)
 
Greetings again Godsgrace,
In the OT the word LORD, as in the burning bush, always refers to God Father.
(as asked by JLB to you re who the angel represented speaking to Moses)
Most Trinitarians incorrectly claim that the appearances of YHWH in the OT is God the Son, so you need to get the story correct and check the story with other members.

The following is relevant:
Exodus 23:20–21 (KJV): 20 Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. 21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.

Also in the following passages there are two Beings who are called "YHWH":
Genesis 19:24–25 (KJV): 24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven; 25 And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground.

Zechariah 3:1–2 (KJV): 1 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him. 2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?

And Jude identifies this YHWH Angel as Michael the ArchAngel:
Jude 9 (KJV): Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
Greetings again JLB, Alfred Persson and WalterandDebbie,

No, an ArchAngel, and in this case most probably Michael the ArchAngel. He is a Messenger of the One God, Yahweh, God the Father. Jesus the Son of God was not yet born.

Most of my answers are applicable to all the other members and you have posted too much irrelevant matter.

Your logic is based on the Trinity and not on the Scriptural revelation concerning the Yahweh Name.

In some contexts the Name Yahweh is applied to Jesus because he represents Yahweh and fulfills the development contained within the Yahweh Name. Plese note, that the whole process of salvation summarised here is to the glory of the One God, Yahweh, God the Father, not to the glory of the supposed Trinity or supposed God the Son.

I have already stated that John 8:58 should be translated "I am he" and Exodus 3:14 should be translated as "I will be".

Kind regards
Trevor
Good morning Trevor, How are you and your wife? and thank you for your reply.

Love always, Walter And Debbie
 
Hello, And how are you all? Interesting Thread,

Who Was "the Angel of the Lord"?

Jesus showed He is that true light, saying, also: "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I AM [remember, as the Son of God, He became also the "I AM" -- part of the Godhead -- who spoke to Moses in the burning bush, saying His name was "I AM THAT I AM" -- see Exodus 3:14] the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star" (Rev.22:16). Jesus Christ -- Yeshua the Anointed One -- also used this expression, "I AM," in a fascinating context in John 8, where He said to the Rabbis who were questioning Him: "If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. . . . Yet ye have not known him, but I know him. . . . Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM" (John 8:42, 55-58). The One that appeared to Moses in the burning bush, many have thought, was God the Father. But this simply cannot be so. In fact, we read in Exodus, "And the ANGEL [Hebrew melek meaning "messenger"] of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of the bush" (Exo.3:2). This was not the Father Himself, but His agent -- His "messenger." Yet it was far more than just any angelic messenger. This messenger was the Word -- the Logos -- the second member of the Elohim Godhead! For He said to Moses, later, when asked His name: "And God said to Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you" (Exo.3:14).

Notice! This "angel of the LORD" went on to say to Moses, "And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, the LORD [the Hebrew Tetragrammaton, or YHVH -- Yah, Yahu, or Yahveh, and perhaps other forms, meaning the Eternal, Self-Existent one, the One who is, was, and shall always be, as well as the One who Causes to be or not to be, the Creator of all there is] God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is MY MEMORIAL unto all generations" (Exo.3:15). 238 This One who spoke to Moses was not God the Father, as many have assumed. This had to be the second member of the Godhead -- the Logos -- who was created by the Father, and became His very own Son, through whom He created the Universe to follow. How do we know this? Simple: This great Being later spoke the Ten Commandments, and all Israel heard Him (Exo.20:1-17).

"And God spake all these words, saying . . ." (v.1). The One who would speak would naturally be the Word, the Spokesman, the Utterer, the Speaker -- The Logos spoke on behalf of the Father. The people all heard Him speak the Ten Commandments, but were afraid, and said to Moses, "Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die" (Exo.20:18-19). God Himself, the Logos, said to Moses, "Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, Ye have seen that I have talked with you from heaven" (Exo.20:22). From this point on, God spoke with Moses, and Moses communicated His message to the people.

By The Deceased William F. Dankenbring Title: The Awesome Mystery of GOD The Father, the Logos, the Messiah, the Mystery of Christ

Sub-Title: Chapter 15 Who Is the"ANGEL of the LORD"and the MESSIAH?

Love, Walter And Debbie

I have never heard of William F. Dankenbring but have been teaching that revelation of Jesus from Exodus 3 for the last 10 years on this Forum and to my family and friends.

Jesus Christ is LORD; YHWH the LORD God.



Thus the LORD my God will come, and all the saints with You.
Zechariah 14:5





JLB
 
No, an ArchAngel, and in this case most probably Michael the ArchAngel. He is a Messenger of the One God, Yahweh, God the Father. Jesus the Son of God was not yet born.


So you believe Michael the Archangel is God?

Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock to the back of the desert, and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.”
So when the LORD saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!”
And he said, “Here I am.”
Then He said, “Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.”
Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:16


The scriptures refer to the Angel of the LORD as God.


Surely you don’t believe Michael the angel is God, right?







JLB
 
Greetings again Alfred Persson,

There are most probably a number of Modern Books that deal with this subject. I am the Librarian for our meeting, and in one of my 2nd hand book shop ventures I came across the following book, and I have quoted a few portions:

History of the Dogma of the Deity of Christ by A Reville 1904 (from translation 1905)
Professor of the History of Religion at the College of France.

Page 4: The maxim of Vincent de Leyrins, more boastful than true, ‘the Church, when it employs new terms, never says anything new’, influenced the entire history of Christianity; philosophers and submissive believers were equally satisfied with it.

After a brief summary of the doctrine of the Trinity he says:
Page 9: Such is the doctrine which, having been slowly elaborated, arrived at supremacy in the Christian Church towards the end of the fifth century, and which, after continuing undisputed, excepting in connection with some obscure heresies, for eleven centuries, has been gradually from the sixteenth century losing its prestige, although it is still the professed belief of the majority of Christians.

Page 10: … the religious sentiment … is not in the least alarmed at contradictions; on the contrary, there are times when it might be said that it seeks and delights in them. They seem to strengthen the impression of mystery, an attitude which belongs to every object of adoration.

Speaking of the developments in the second century:
Page 54: … the ‘celestial being’ increasingly supplanted the human being, except among the Jewish-Christians of the primitive type … These firmly maintained the opinion that Jesus was a man, … fully inspired by God … admitted his miraculous conception.

Page 59: The Platonists began to furnish brilliant recruits to the churches of Asia and Greece, and introduced among them their love of system and their idealism. To state the facts in a few words, Hellenism insensibly supplanted Judaism as the form of Christian thought, and to this is mainly owing the orthodox dogma of the deity of Jesus Christ.

Page 60: Hence the rapidity with which a philosophical doctrine of much earlier origin than Christianity, and at first foreign to the Church, was brought into it, and adapted itself so completely to the prevailing Christology as to become identical therewith, and to pass for the belief which had been professed by the disciples from the beginning.

Page 96: There were some Jewish-Christians who admitted without difficulty the miraculous birth of Jesus, but would not hear of his pre-existence.

Page 105: It is curious to read the incredible subtleties by which Athanasius and the orthodox theologians strove to remove the stumbling-block from the history of a dogma which they desired to represent as having been invariable and complete since the earliest days.

Pages 108-109: … the minds of men … either inclined to lay great stress upon the subordination of the Son, in order to keep as close as possible to the facts of Gospel history, or they dwelt strongly upon his divinity, in order to satisfy an ardent piety, which felt as if it could not exalt Christ too highly. From this sprang two doctrines, that of Arius and of Athanasius. In reality, though under other forms, it was a renewal of the struggle between rationalism and mysticism.

Page 115: In reality, Arius, whose character and doctrine have been unjustly vilified by orthodox historians, was stating the ecclesiastical doctrine that had been in common acceptance.

Speaking of the Nicene Creed:
Page 121: … the majority of the council would have preferred a middle course, maintaining the traditional idea of the subordination of the Son to the Father, while ascribing to the Son as much divine attributes as they could without openly passing this limit.

Page 124: Arianism, which had been overcome by the imperial will more than by the free judgement of the bishops, retained its power in the churches.

Page 126: People did not believe at that period in the infallibility of councils. The West alone remained firm in adhesion to the faith of Nicea.

Page 136: The Arian party, representing as it did the opposition to ecclesiastical authority and dogmatising mysticism, was the party generally preferred by the freer minds. It was consequently the least united. For the same reason was it the most opposed to the ascetic, monkish, and superstitious customs which more and more pervaded the church.

Kind regards
Trevor
The only thing specific is Arius (250-336) condemned by his own bishop for his "ambition to be a teacher". Just as the bishop over him rejected his innovations, so did the rest of the churches.

His theory of Trinitarianism springing up from nothing had no historical support, its just his theory.

There was also a certain Arius, who wore the habit of piety and was similarly possessed with the ambition to be a teacher. Phileas (c. 307, E), 6.164.

Arius denies the Godhood of our Savior and preaches that He is only the equal of all others. Having collected all the passages that speak of His plan of salvation and His humiliation for our sake, … [his followers] ignore altogether the passages in which His eternal Godhood and unutterable glory with the Father is set forth. Alexander of Alexandria (c. 324, E), 6.291.

I have stirred myself up to show you the faithlessness of these men, who say that there was a time when the Son of God was not. And that He who did not exist before came into existence afterwards—becoming such when at length He was made, even as every man is necessarily born. They say that God made all things from things that did not exist, including even the Son of God in the creation of all things rational and irrational. To this, they add that, as a consequence, He is of a changeable nature, capable of both virtue and vice. Having assumed these propositions, that He is made from things that did not exist, they overturn the sacred writings concerning His eternity. For they reveal the immutability and the Divinity of Wisdom and the Word that are Christ.… They say that since God foreknew and had foreseen that His Son would not rebel against Him, He chose Him from all. For He did not choose Him as if by nature He had anything special beyond His other sons, or any peculiar properties of His own. For they say that no one is by nature a Son of God. Rather, God chose Him who was of a mutable nature, because of His careful life and practices. For He in no way turned to that which is evil. So, according to this, if Paul and Peter had striven for this, there would have been no difference between their sonship and His. Alexander of Alexandria (c. 324, E), 6.292.


-Arius, Arianism. (1998). In D. W. Bercot (Ed.), A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs: A Reference Guide to More than 700 Topics Discussed by the Early Church Fathers (p. 35). Hendrickson Publishers.

If Arianism were the belief of the church universal, and Trinitarianism the invention the situation would be reversed. The Bishop would have condemned it instead of Arianism.

And Arianism remains just as absurd today as when Arius was alive, to say that Christ who created all things is created! How then did He create ALL things? How were all things created "through" Him and how can all things consist inside His infinite Being?

As in the movie the Matrix, the computer generating the Matrix was omnipresent inside the matrix, but not in the matrix like everything created. In the computer all things created in the Matrix "consist": are "held together" by it just like all things in our Matix were created by and through Jesus and are "held together" in Him by His Infinite Mind and Power:


1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. (Jn. 1:1-3 KJV)


16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. (Col. 1:16-17 NKJ)
 
Last edited:
I have never heard of William F. Dankenbring but have been teaching that revelation of Jesus from Exodus 3 for the last 10 years on this Forum and to my family and friends.

Jesus Christ is LORD; YHWH the LORD God.



Thus the LORD my God will come, and all the saints with You.
Zechariah 14:5





JLB
Good morning JLB, and how are you all? He was our Leader/Minister,
William F. Dankenbring was a prolific author and researcher in the realm of Christian-related topics. Let’s explore some of his work:
  1. “The Mysterious Events of the Year 30 A.D.!”: In this intriguing piece, Dankenbring delves into the events surrounding Jesus Christ’s crucifixion on the 14th of Nisan, which coincided with the Passover sacrifice. He also highlights other unusual occurrences during that remarkable year 1.
  2. “America and Great Britain: Our Identity Revealed”: Dankenbring authored this book, which explores the historical and biblical connections between America and Great Britain. It touches on topics such as ancient history, current events, and Christian beliefs 2.
  3. “The Last Days”: Another work by Dankenbring, this book delves into eschatological themes and prophecies related to the end times 3.
  4. “Your Keys to Radiant Health”: Dankenbring also wrote about health-related matters, emphasizing keys to maintaining vibrant well-being 4.
His contributions spanned various subjects, from biblical studies to health, leaving a lasting impact on those who engaged with his writings.

Learn more​


1of30

Show learn more suggestions
  • Tell me more about his book on America and Great Britain.
  • What other topics did Dankenbring explore?

Love, Walter And Debbie
 
  • Like
Reactions: JLB
The only thing specific is Arius (250-336) condemned by his own bishop for his "ambition to be a teacher". Just as the bishop over him rejected his innovations, so did the rest of the churches.

His theory of Trinitarianism springing up from nothing had no historical support, its just his theory.

There was also a certain Arius, who wore the habit of piety and was similarly possessed with the ambition to be a teacher. Phileas (c. 307, E), 6.164.

Arius denies the Godhood of our Savior and preaches that He is only the equal of all others. Having collected all the passages that speak of His plan of salvation and His humiliation for our sake, … [his followers] ignore altogether the passages in which His eternal Godhood and unutterable glory with the Father is set forth. Alexander of Alexandria (c. 324, E), 6.291.

I have stirred myself up to show you the faithlessness of these men, who say that there was a time when the Son of God was not. And that He who did not exist before came into existence afterwards—becoming such when at length He was made, even as every man is necessarily born. They say that God made all things from things that did not exist, including even the Son of God in the creation of all things rational and irrational. To this, they add that, as a consequence, He is of a changeable nature, capable of both virtue and vice. Having assumed these propositions, that He is made from things that did not exist, they overturn the sacred writings concerning His eternity. For they reveal the immutability and the Divinity of Wisdom and the Word that are Christ.… They say that since God foreknew and had foreseen that His Son would not rebel against Him, He chose Him from all. For He did not choose Him as if by nature He had anything special beyond His other sons, or any peculiar properties of His own. For they say that no one is by nature a Son of God. Rather, God chose Him who was of a mutable nature, because of His careful life and practices. For He in no way turned to that which is evil. So, according to this, if Paul and Peter had striven for this, there would have been no difference between their sonship and His. Alexander of Alexandria (c. 324, E), 6.292.


-Arius, Arianism. (1998). In D. W. Bercot (Ed.), A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs: A Reference Guide to More than 700 Topics Discussed by the Early Church Fathers (p. 35). Hendrickson Publishers.

If Arianism were the belief of the church universal, and Trinitarianism the invention the situation would be reversed. The Bishop would have condemned it instead of Arianism.

And Arianism remains just as absurd today as when Arius was alive, to say that Christ who created all things is created! How then did He create ALL things? How were all things created "through" Him and how can all things consist inside His infinite Being?

As in the movie the Matrix, the computer generating the Matrix was omnipresent inside the matrix, but not in the matrix like everything created. In the computer all things created in the Matrix "consist": are "held together" by it just like all things in our Matix were created by and through Jesus and are "held together" in Him by His Infinite Mind and Power:


1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. (Jn. 1:1-3 KJV)


16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. (Col. 1:16-17 NKJ)

Arian theology holds that Yeshua is the Son of Yahweh actually begotten of God the Father with the difference that the Son of God did not always exist but was begotten. Therefore, Jesus was not coeternal with God the Father, but nonetheless Jesus began to exist outside time. Arianism holds that the Son is distinct from the Father and therefore subordinate to him.

Now I am not going to say Aries was perfect, just a lot closer than most and definitely closer than what the Ecumenical Councils came up with, which was the one God formula. The one point here that is interesting is this… but nonetheless Jesus began to exist outside time. All through the Old Testament Yahweh states that He is the only God and there is no one like Him.

Yeshua does not appear in the Old Testament…..by name or action. In other words Yahweh and Yeshua are not talking to or referring to each other like in the New Testament. No event or action is specifically attributed to Yeshua in the Old Testament.

But then you have the statement…. but nonetheless Jesus began to exist outside time and Albert Einstein’s theism of the relativity of time. It is the nature of a God to exist to some extent in all time periods, past, present, and future. Yeshua was born a God….the real Son of Yahweh….as a God to some extent He existed in all time periods.

But the Christian Gods are three God the Father Yahweh, God the Son Yeshua, and God the Holy Spirit, the unnamed God.

The history of being God….the short version

There are theological topics that are so complex that the research takes a lot of digging through the hard pan of misinformation and then explaining it to people is a whole other challenge…. The whole thing is tangled up so tightly that it is like the giant ball of twine in Ripple’s Believe It Or Not, that sat out in the weather for decades.

Social programming is a real thing. People have been programmed to believe the one God formula for over 1500 years. What do you think process foods are? Processed food is bad for you….milk from the cow is bad for you….2% milk is highly processed food. We live in an age that if you are paying attention you know social programming exists because you are being hit from all directions and most swallow it hook line and sinker.

How much misinformation has been feed to people and for how long? How long has this programming been going on?

Well, it starts out with one God….stating that He is the only God and there is no one like Him….Yahweh makes this clear in the Old Testament a few times.

Is it a Hell bound offense to mess with the scriptures….I mean intentionally change them…..I hope so. Yahweh’s name(s) appeared in the original scriptures 6,800 times….So they decided to take His name out….so they removed His name 6,800 times and then started to insert various words and reconstructed the sentences to adjust for the changes. This is an incredible violation of scriptures! An immense corruption that would be hard to correct. Most of the words that were inserted where either God or Lord. This all happened before the time of Christ.

So now a lot people believe that is His name….His name is God! NO, God is a Divine position, not a name. This game continues into the New Testament because Christ’s name is not in the scriptures either. The word that is used in the New Testament is a Greek word that means healer or honorable healer, it is a word not a name. Christ’s name was a common and popular name….But Iēsous is a Greek word that is why you do not see Greek people commonly named Iēsous in history.

So the deception was complete the names of the Christian Gods are not in the Bible…..Mission accomplished!….but who’s mission was it. Who would not want the names of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit in the Bible? Holy Spirit is not a name by the way. Because they used this phrase people have thought that the Holy Spirit was a ghost, not a God….or the Spirit of Yahweh or Yeshua or both.

All through the Gospels we can see Yahweh and Yeshua working together and communicating with each other. The word Trinity is not in the scriptures but it occurs before the Ecumenical Councils, but it is the Ecumenical Councils that come up with the one God formula for the Trinity upon the insistence of Emperor Constantine that they settle the arguments about Yahweh and Yeshua.

There were people with strong beliefs regarding Yahweh and Yeshua that did not agree….Emperor Constantine insisted on agreement. But the disagreements and arguments were neutralized if they were one person. It was not about establishing a true belief it was about stopping the disagreements that is why there was so many punishments involved with not believing it or preaching against it.

The doctrine was not popular at all because the disagreements were not about them being one….the doctrine was just an off the wall alternative to stop the arguments. So they had to force the belief on people upon threat of death or excommunication. Saying they could not even be saved if they did not believe the lie. Such is the way of the Romans. There are more Catholic doctrines on forcing this belief than the doctrine itself.

Yahweh…God Almighty….Creator of Heaven and Earth
Yeshua…God the Son….the real Son….Savior….Messiah
The Holy Spirit….the unnamed God….strengthener…guide......Faith.

For the long version….


https://www.christianityboard.com/threads/grailhunter%E2%80%99s-corner.32434/
 
Greetings again JLB,
Jesus Christ is LORD; YHWH the LORD God.
No, Yahweh is the Name of the One God, Yahweh, God the Father. Jesus is the Son of God.
So you believe Michael the Archangel is God?
The word translated in English as "God" is the Hebrew word "Elohim" and this Hebrew word has a wider range of application than our English word. "Elohim" is applied to the One God, Yahweh, God the Father Himself, and also to Angels, Judges, especially to Jesus and in prospect to the resurrected faithful.

One example of the occurrence of "Elohim" for an Angel is when Jacob wrestled with an Angel and prevailed:
Genesis 32:24–30 (KJV): 24 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day. 25 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob’s thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him. 26 And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me. 27 And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob. 28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. 29 And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there. 30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

Hosea 12:2–6 (KJV): 2 The LORD hath also a controversy with Judah, and will punish Jacob according to his ways; according to his doings will he recompense him. 3 He took his brother by the heel in the womb, and by his strength he had power with God: 4 Yea, he had power over the angel, and prevailed: he wept, and made supplication unto him: he found him in Bethel, and there he spake with us; 5 Even the LORD God of hosts; the LORD is his memorial. 6 Therefore turn thou to thy God: keep mercy and judgment, and wait on thy God continually.


The Angel fully represents God, Yahweh, and speaks and acts on His behalf, but Yahweh was in heaven both in Exodus 3 and in this incident with Jacob. Trinitarians refuse to acknowledge this use of "Elohim" because they erroneously want to squeeze or inject God the Son into the O.T. record.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
It is the nature of a God to exist to some extent in all time periods, past, present, and future. Yeshua was born a God….the real Son of Yahweh….as a God to some extent He existed in all time periods.

But the Christian Gods are three God the Father Yahweh, God the Son Yeshua, and God the Holy Spirit, the unnamed God.


...

Yahweh…God Almighty….Creator of Heaven and Earth
Yeshua…God the Son….the real Son….Savior….Messiah
The Holy Spirit….the unnamed God….strengthener…guide......Faith.
Deu 4:35 To you it was shown, that you might know that the LORD is God; there is no other besides him.

Deu 4:39 Acknowledge and take to heart this day that the LORD is God in heaven above and on the earth below. There is no other.

Deu 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.

Deu 32:39 "'See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand.

Isa 37:16 "LORD Almighty, the God of Israel, enthroned between the cherubim, you alone are God over all the kingdoms of the earth. You have made heaven and earth.

Isa 37:20 Now, LORD our God, deliver us from his hand, so that all the kingdoms of the earth may know that you, LORD, are the only God."

Isa 42:8 I am the LORD; that is my name; my glory I give to no other, nor my praise to carved idols.

Isa 43:10 "You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me.
Isa 43:11 I, I am the LORD, and besides me there is no savior.

Isa 44:6 Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: "I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god.

Isa 44:8 Fear not, nor be afraid; have I not told you from of old and declared it? And you are my witnesses! Is there a God besides me? There is no Rock; I know not any."

Isa 44:24 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, who formed you from the womb: "I am the LORD, who made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself,

Isa 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is no other, besides me there is no God; I equip you, though you do not know me,
Isa 45:6 that people may know, from the rising of the sun and from the west, that there is none besides me; I am the LORD, and there is no other.

Isa 45:18 For thus says the LORD, who created the heavens (he is God!), who formed the earth and made it (he established it; he did not create it empty, he formed it to be inhabited!): "I am the LORD, and there is no other.

Isa 45:21 Declare and present your case; let them take counsel together! Who told this long ago? Who declared it of old? Was it not I, the LORD? And there is no other god besides me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none besides me.
Isa 45:22 "Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other.

Isa 46:9 remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me,

(All ESV.)

There was, is, and ever will be only one God. Ever. God himself says so: "Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me." That is precisely why the doctrine of the Trinity best takes into account all that God reveals of himself in Scripture. Tritheism is heresy, and that is not a word I use lightly.
 
Greetings again Alfred Persson,
The only thing specific is Arius (250-336) condemned by his own bishop for his "ambition to be a teacher". Just as the bishop over him rejected his innovations, so did the rest of the churches.
I do not endorse the teaching of Arius, as it is extreme in one direction, just as Trinitarianism is extreme in the other direction.
(Jn. 1:1-3 KJV) (Col. 1:16-17 NKJ)
Two favourite Trinitarian Scriptures. I understand "The Word" to be a personification similar to the Wise Woman "Wisdom" of Proverbs 8. I consider that Colossians speaks of the New Creation in Jesus.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
Good morning JLB, and how are you all? He was our Leader/Minister,
William F. Dankenbring was a prolific author and researcher in the realm of Christian-related topics. Let’s explore some of his work:
  1. “The Mysterious Events of the Year 30 A.D.!”: In this intriguing piece, Dankenbring delves into the events surrounding Jesus Christ’s crucifixion on the 14th of Nisan, which coincided with the Passover sacrifice. He also highlights other unusual occurrences during that remarkable year 1.
  2. “America and Great Britain: Our Identity Revealed”: Dankenbring authored this book, which explores the historical and biblical connections between America and Great Britain. It touches on topics such as ancient history, current events, and Christian beliefs 2.
  3. “The Last Days”: Another work by Dankenbring, this book delves into eschatological themes and prophecies related to the end times 3.
  4. “Your Keys to Radiant Health”: Dankenbring also wrote about health-related matters, emphasizing keys to maintaining vibrant well-being 4.
His contributions spanned various subjects, from biblical studies to health, leaving a lasting impact on those who engaged with his writings.

Learn more​


1of30

Show learn more suggestions
  • Tell me more about his book on America and Great Britain.
  • What other topics did Dankenbring explore?

Love, Walter And Debbie

Thank you very much.



Be blessed.
 
Back
Top