Do you need to believe Jesus is God to be saved?

[TrevorL]

Greetings again JLB,

Anyway, thanks for your time.

Yes, I appreciated the interaction. If I continued discussing with you, then it is obvious now from the following that you are also KJVO.

However, your perspective uses phrases such as "I am he" for John 8:58 and "I will be" for Exodus 3:14.
When in fact Jesus and the Angel of the LORD specifically says I AM, thus you have ignored what the scripture says.

I was tempted to give a full exposition of John 8:58 and its context, but your comment above helped to make my decision to discontinue. I have given my understanding of Exodus 3:14 in my thread "The Yahweh Name" where I prefer Tyndale's translation and his unique spelling "Iwilbe" of Exodus 3:14. The Trinitarian KJV translators rejected his interpretation.

For the benefit of those who are not KJVO subscribers, for your own personal contemplation, consider the following two aspects of the context of John 8:58:
1. When did Abraham rejoice to see the day of Christ, when did he actually see this day?
John 8:56 (KJV): Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

2. Some Trinitarians also like to quote John 8:24 where the same Greek words occur as John 8:58 to say that Jesus is also quoting here Exodus 3:14 to claim that Jesus is the "I AM". As such they need to alter the KJV and I should imagine that some of the Trinitarians on the Panel would have preferred this, as in a similar way a few modern translations have done this.
John 8:24 (KJV): I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

On the other hand they quietly ignore John 8:28 where it is obvious that Jesus is not claiming to be Deity, but speaks of his absolute dependence upon God His Father:
John 8:28 (KJV): Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
Jesus is The Son of God.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[JLB]

Yes, I appreciated the interaction. If I continued discussing with you, then it is obvious now from the following that you are also KJVO.

I'm mostly New King James.

 

[JLB]

Jesus is The Son of God.

Agreed. Jesus is the Son of God.

 

[JLB]

On the other hand they quietly ignore John 8:28 where it is obvious that Jesus is not claiming to be Deity, but speaks of his absolute dependence upon God His Father:
John 8:28 (KJV): Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
Jesus is The Son of God.

Please understand that as a flesh and blood man, Jesus demonstrated to us how God intends for mankind to live.

IOW Jesus showcased for us what it looks like to "subdue and have dominion" as spoke to mankind.

When He became flesh, He was made a little lower than the angels.

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone. Hebrews 2:9




JLB

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again JLB,

I'm mostly New King James.

I am a bit reticent to get further involved, but a few things from your latest posts. So you are suggesting that the NKJV translation is "Scripture", but the Tyndale translation is not "Scripture".

Agreed. Jesus is the Son of God.

I suggest that we mean two different concepts by this title. Jesus is not the Son of God because somehow God the Son was injected into the womb of Mary. Jesus is the Son of God because the One God is the father of Jesus in the conception / birth process, while Mary was his mother, and the One God, Yahweh, God the Father is the Father of the character that Jesus revealed, full of grace and truth, and the One God, His Father raised His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ from the dead.

Please understand that as a flesh and blood man,
When He became flesh, He was made a little lower than the angels.
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone. Hebrews 2:9

Perhaps you have quoted from a portion of the Scripture that best teaches that Jesus was a human, not God, and not a God-man. Paul is quoting from Psalm 8 which is a summary and development of Genesis 1 and the creation of Adam. You failed to quote the following:
Hebrews 2:14 (KJV): Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
Jesus was a human, subject to the sentence of mortality upon Adam, and he partook of the fallen nature of Adam.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[JLB]

I am a bit reticent to get further involved, but a few things from your latest posts. So you are suggesting that the NKJV translation is "Scripture", but the Tyndale translation is not "Scripture".

?

I don't believe I ever said that.

They only thing I recall mentioning about "versions" of the bible is my preference for NKJV.

 

[JLB]

I suggest that we mean two different concepts by this title. Jesus is not the Son of God because somehow God the Son was injected into the womb of Mary.

Jesus was the only begotten Son of God the Father, before creation, which has nothing to do with being born of a virgin, or Him becoming flesh.


Again, Jesus created all things in heaven and earth.

Remember Elohim is a plural reference of God.

Then God (Elohim) said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; Genesis 1:26

 

[GodsGrace]

Greetings again Godsgrace,

Most Trinitarians incorrectly claim that the appearances of YHWH in the OT is God the Son, so you need to get the story correct and check the story with other members.

The following is relevant:
Exodus 23:20–21 (KJV): 20 Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. 21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.

Also in the following passages there are two Beings who are called "YHWH":
Genesis 19:24–25 (KJV): 24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven; 25 And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground.

Zechariah 3:1–2 (KJV): 1 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him. 2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?
And Jude identifies this YHWH Angel as Michael the ArchAngel:
Jude 9 (KJV): Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

Kind regards
Trevor

Hi TrevorL
Sorry for delay.

I don't really like to check any bible verse with other members....
Here's the problem with Exodus 3:4
Who is THE LORD in this verse?

Some theologians believe it is Jesus, God the 2nd Person,
and some believe it is God Father.

When something is as unsure as this is I just use my best understanding.

Here's what I would ask myself:

WHO IS THE GOD THAT LIBERATED THE SLAVES FROM EGYPT?
WHO IS THE GOD THAT FOLLOWED THE ISRAELITES LIKE A CLOUD BECAUSE GOD FATHER HAS NEVER BEEN SEEN?
WHO IS THE GOD THAT GAVE MOSES THE 10 COMMANDMENTS ON MT. SINIAI?

My answer to the above is God Father.

As you've guessed, this is not a hill I'd care to die on.
One may believe what he will and be right.
(according to Christian theologians).

 

[JLB]

WHO IS THE GOD THAT LIBERATED THE SLAVES FROM EGYPT?

Jesus, the Son.

Then the Angel of the LORD came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said: “I led you up from Egypt and brought you to the land of which I swore to your fathers; and I said, ‘I will never break My covenant with you. And you shall make no covenant with the inhabitants of this land; you shall tear down their altars.’ But you have not obeyed My voice. Why have you done this? Therefore I also said, ‘I will not drive them out before you; but they shall be thorns in your side, and their gods shall be a snare to you.’ ” So it was, when the Angel of the LORD spoke these words to all the children of Israel, that the people lifted up their voices and wept. Judges 2:1-4

 

[JLB]

WHO IS THE GOD THAT FOLLOWED THE ISRAELITES LIKE A CLOUD BECAUSE GOD FATHER HAS NEVER BEEN SEEN?

The Holy Spirit.

 

[GodsGrace]

Jesus, the Son.

Then the Angel of the LORD came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said: “I led you up from Egypt and brought you to the land of which I swore to your fathers; and I said, ‘I will never break My covenant with you. And you shall make no covenant with the inhabitants of this land; you shall tear down their altars.’ But you have not obeyed My voice. Why have you done this? Therefore I also said, ‘I will not drive them out before you; but they shall be thorns in your side, and their gods shall be a snare to you.’ ” So it was, when the Angel of the LORD spoke these words to all the children of Israel, that the people lifted up their voices and wept. Judges 2:1-4

Interesting JLB
Because the theologians that agree that it indeed is God the Son discuss how the New Covenant fits in with this.
The above is speaking about a Covenant, although I do believe it's the Abrahamic Covenant or perhaps the Mosaic Covenant.

Also, when I see LORD in capitals I was taught that it means God Father.

Will read more about why the New Covenant refers to the Exodus 3:4 verse...
(or V V)

Thanks.

 

[JLB]

WHO IS THE GOD THAT GAVE MOSES THE 10 COMMANDMENTS ON MT. SINIAI?

Jesus the Son; the Angel of the LORD, who is the Glory of the Father.

What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. Galatians 3:19



All these were done according to the will of God the Father, who is seated upon His throne, and unseen by humans.


No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him. John 1:18


The God that was seen in the Old Testament was God the Son, not God the Father.

One of God the Father's titles is "Him who is seated upon the Throne".

Whenever the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to Him who sits on the throne, who lives forever and ever, the twenty-four elders fall down before Him who sits on the throne and worship Him who lives forever... Revelation 4:9-10


JLB

 

[JLB]

Also, when I see LORD in capitals I was taught that it means God Father.

Capitals LORD refers to primarily YHWH, the LORD, which refers to Jesus, but also the eternal Godhead, YHWH Elohim.


One of the clearest scriptures that shows us Jesus the Son is YHWH, is found in Zechariah.


1 Behold, the day of the LORD is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then the LORD will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.
Thus the LORD my God will come, and all the saints with You. Zechariah 14:1-5


Jesus is the One coming on the Day of the LORD with the saints from heaven, to gather His people at the resurrection and rapture.







JLB

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again GodsGrace,

Some theologians believe it is Jesus, God the 2nd Person,
and some believe it is God Father.

I find your situation and the normal Trinitarian position quite amusing. Both ignore what the Scriptures states about God, that man cannot approach unto God or see Him:
1 Timothy 6:13–16 (KJV): 13 I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession; 14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: 15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; 16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Now despite the above statement, you are saying that Moses directly saw God the Father at the burning bush. I consider that Trinitarians are in a similar precarious position. They have two Persons who make up the One Being of the Trinity, God the Father who it is impossible for man to approach and see, and God the Son who can be seen, but these two Persons are co-equal.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again JLB,

I don't believe I ever said that. They only thing I recall mentioning about "versions" of the bible is my preference for NKJV.

You claimed that I was ignoring what "the scripture says":

However, your perspective uses phrases such as "I am he" for John 8:58 and "I will be" for Exodus 3:14.
When in fact Jesus and the Angel of the LORD specifically says I AM, thus you have ignored what the scripture says.
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I Am. John 8:58
And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. Exodus 3:14
Jesus applied this name to Himself, I AM.

But I have given sufficient evidence in my thread "The Yahweh Name" that "I will be" is the correct translation of Exodus 3:14 and that the KJV and NKJV are erroneous.

It was interesting when my online Hebrew tutor, who himself is a Trinitarian and was speaking to an audience of mainly Trinitarians, was asked about the translation of Exodus 3:14, he stated that "Ehyeh" is the Hebrew imperfect and should be rendered "I will be". There was then a murmur of disappointment from his Trinitarian audience. He then went on to say that the Hebrew perfect is found in the earlier verse:
Exodus 3:6 (KJV): Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.
So I suggest that it is you who is ignoring what the Scripture says.

Jesus was the only begotten Son of God the Father, before creation, which has nothing to do with being born of a virgin, or Him becoming flesh.

John 1:14 (KJV): And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
The expression "the only begotten of the Father" is alluding to or quoting from John 1:14 and relates to his conception and birth Matthew 1:20-21, Luke 1:34-35. The One God, Yahweh did not beget another God, God the Son before creation. You cannot create a God.

Remember Elohim is a plural reference of God.
Then God (Elohim) said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; Genesis 1:26

No, this is the One God, Yahweh, God the Father inviting the Angels to participate in the creation of man in the image and likeness of God and the Angels as Psalm 8:5 proves.

Capitals LORD refers to primarily YHWH, the LORD, which refers to Jesus, but also the eternal Godhead, YHWH Elohim.

No Yahweh is the Name of the One God, Yahweh, God the Father while Jesus is the Son of God. The expression "The Son of God" means exactly what is states, that the One God has a Son.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[GodsGrace]

Greetings again JLB,

You claimed that I was ignoring what "the scripture says":

But I have given sufficient evidence in my thread "The Yahweh Name" that "I will be" is the correct translation of Exodus 3:14 and that the KJV and NKJV are erroneous.

It was interesting when my online Hebrew tutor, who himself is a Trinitarian and was speaking to an audience of mainly Trinitarians, was asked about the translation of Exodus 3:14, he stated that "Ehyeh" is the Hebrew imperfect and should be rendered "I will be". There was then a murmur of disappointment from his Trinitarian audience. He then went on to say that the Hebrew perfect is found in the earlier verse:
Exodus 3:6 (KJV): Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.
So I suggest that it is you who is ignoring what the Scripture says.

John 1:14 (KJV): And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
The expression "the only begotten of the Father" is alluding to or quoting from John 1:14 and relates to his conception and birth Matthew 1:20-21, Luke 1:34-35. The One God, Yahweh did not beget another God, God the Son before creation. You cannot create a God.

No, this is the One God, Yahweh, God the Father inviting the Angels to participate in the creation of man in the image and likeness of God and the Angels as Psalm 8:5 proves.

No Yahweh is the Name of the One God, Yahweh, God the Father while Jesus is the Son of God. The expression "The Son of God" means exactly what is states, that the One God has a Son.

Kind regards
Trevor

The correct translation for Exodus 3:14 is
I WAS I AM I WILL BE

 

[GodsGrace]

Greetings again JLB,

You claimed that I was ignoring what "the scripture says":

But I have given sufficient evidence in my thread "The Yahweh Name" that "I will be" is the correct translation of Exodus 3:14 and that the KJV and NKJV are erroneous.

It was interesting when my online Hebrew tutor, who himself is a Trinitarian and was speaking to an audience of mainly Trinitarians, was asked about the translation of Exodus 3:14, he stated that "Ehyeh" is the Hebrew imperfect and should be rendered "I will be". There was then a murmur of disappointment from his Trinitarian audience. He then went on to say that the Hebrew perfect is found in the earlier verse:
Exodus 3:6 (KJV): Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.
So I suggest that it is you who is ignoring what the Scripture says.

John 1:14 (KJV): And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
The expression "the only begotten of the Father" is alluding to or quoting from John 1:14 and relates to his conception and birth Matthew 1:20-21, Luke 1:34-35. The One God, Yahweh did not beget another God, God the Son before creation. You cannot create a God.

No, this is the One God, Yahweh, God the Father inviting the Angels to participate in the creation of man in the image and likeness of God and the Angels as Psalm 8:5 proves.

No Yahweh is the Name of the One God, Yahweh, God the Father while Jesus is the Son of God. The expression "The Son of God" means exactly what is states, that the One God has a Son.

Kind regards
Trevor

1. If God had a Son, that Son is also God.

2. Jesus was born 2 thousand years ago. God's ultimate revelation of Himself.

3. Jesus, as the second PERSON of the Trinity, has always existed...as the LOGOS of God. God always possessed a Logos...it did not come into being.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again GodsGrace,

The correct translation for Exodus 3:14 is I WAS I AM I WILL BE

No. Ehyeh is in the Hebrew Imperfect Tense.

1. If God had a Son, that Son is also God.

No, The Son that was born to God is Jesus, a human. Gods do not beget Gods.

2. Jesus was born 2 thousand years ago. God's ultimate revelation of Himself.

Yes. Jesus was not revealing God the Son, but he was revealing the One God, Yahweh, God the Father, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

3. Jesus, as the second PERSON of the Trinity, has always existed...as the LOGOS of God. God always possessed a Logos...it did not come into being.

No the "LOGOS" of John 1:1 is a personification, similar to the Wise Woman "WISDOM" of Proverbs 8. God has also always possessed Wisdom.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[JLB]

But I have given sufficient evidence in my thread "The Yahweh Name" that "I will be" is the correct translation of Exodus 3:14 and that the KJV and NKJV are erroneous.

The "evidence" is based on commentary of men.

Whether I AM or I will be Jesus claimed that title of YHWH as Himself, and the Jews picked up stones to stone Him for claiming that name.

Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”
Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. John 8:57-59

The point is not whether it's I AM or I will be.


Jesus invoked the name of God for Himself.

The Jews immediately understood what He was saying, but somehow you don't.

This name is the name the Angel of the LORD applied to Himself.

The Angel of the LORD is God.

These are the points I have been showing from the scriptures, and you have denied them.

Denying the truth of the scriptures is not sound theological position.

Again, here are the points of Exodus 3 that I have made:

• the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush.

Point #1 - The Angel of the LORD is who appeared to Moses and is speaking to Moses.

And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. 3 Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.” Exodus 3:2-3

• I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.

Point #2 - The Angel of the LORD said He was the God of Abraham, which correlates to Jesus' statement in John 8:58

Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:6

• for he was afraid to look upon God.

Point # 3 - Moses who was looking and speaking with the Angel of the LORD stated as plain as day he was afraid to look upon God.

These 3 points are irrefutable.




JLB

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again JLB,

The "evidence" is based on commentary of men.

I suggest that this is a very shallow statement. There is a lot of scholarly research into every aspect of the Bible and its translation. You seem to be very close to a NKJV only attitude, and the following comment seems to indicate this.

Whether I AM or I will be Jesus claimed that title of YHWH as Himself, and the Jews picked up stones to stone Him for claiming that name.

If "I will be" is correct then Jesus is not claiming to be Deity, but is contributing to the theme in John's Gospel of whather or not Jesus is the Christ. Another example of this theme is the following, where the same words as John 8:58 and John 8:24 and John 8:28 are used:
John 4:25–26 (KJV): 25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. 26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.

One key to unlocking John 8:58 is to understand when and how Abraham rejoiced to see the day of Christ.
John 8:56 (KJV): 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
I suggest that the Pharisees understood what Jesus was saying, but deliberately muddied the water to stir up the volatile crowd. The Pharisees would be the first to pick up the stones, hoping that someone in the crowd would cast the first stone, but the common people could see through their deception and motivation. This whole scenario reminds me of the many modern protest movements and political rallies where people wave a banner for a particular cause.

The Angel of the LORD is God.

No the Angel of Yahweh is the Messenger of Yahweh. A good exercise would be to consider all of the Theophanies, and see how the Scriptures use the language respecting the Angels who represented God and acted and spoke on His behalf.

Concerning the translation "I will be" the strongest evidence is the context where the same words are translated "I will be" in Exodus 3:12 in EVERY translation and this verse is relevant or essential to the declaration and meaning of the Yahweh Name. The other strong collaboration is the interaction between Moses and the Angel in Exodus 6:1-8 concerning the meaning and purpose behind in giving the Yahweh Name at that particular time, the deliverance of Israel out of the bondage of Egypt and their inheritance of The Land. Most Trinitarians ignore all of this because they are only interested in trying to connect Exodus 3:14 and John 8:58 after the error of the KJV and NKJV. It is interesting if you have an old fashioned Englishman's Concordance that the KJV "I AM" is listed under the future tense section, together with many of the "I will be" references.

Kind regards
Trevor