Do you need to believe Jesus is God to be saved?
- Thread starter electedbyHim
- Start date
-
Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
-
Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
-
Yes Jesus is the Son.
He has the same name as His Father.
Here we see Him before He became flesh, as He appeared to Moses from the burning bush and spoke to Moses, as the Angel of the LORD.
Angels are sons of God.
The Angel of the LORD is The Son of God.
Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock to the back of the desert, and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.”
So when the LORD saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!”
And he said, “Here I am.”
Then He said, “Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.”
Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:16
The scriptures refer to the Angel of the LORD as God.
JLB
Where is your warrant for doing so for both of your understandings?
Regarding John 1:1-3 (and v. 14):
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Looking at the first clause, "In the beginning" is clearly a reference to Gen 1:1. The word "was" is the Greek, en, which is a form of eimi (I Am), and speaks of continuous action in the past, that is, absolute preexistence before any creation. What that statement means is that when the beginning began, the Word was already in existence, and hence, there was never a time when he did not exist. The very same applies to the Father, who has absolute preexistence.
In the second clause, "and the Word was with God," it is the Greek pros that is translated as "with." But it isn't merely speaking of being together or near. It expresses “direction towards,” as in interpersonal relationship and communion, implying intimacy. It is important to note here that in the Greek the article is present, so it reads, "the Word was with [the] God." So, God is a reference to someone other than the Word, at a minimum it is a reference to the Father.
When it comes to the last clause, "the Word was God," it is significant that "God" doesn't have the article in the Greek, as it was in the preceding clause. If the article had been present then "Word" and "God" become interchangeable, and they are one and the same, which is the error of Modalism/Oneness theology. But this whole passage is about the logos, who the logos is, not who God is, so John purposely doesn't use the article to avoid equating the two words. What it can only mean then, is that the Word was divine in nature, or deity. However, since there is only one God, it is rightly translated as "the Word was God."
There is only one understanding of this verse--the Word existed for eternity past in intimate relationship with another, who is God the Father (at a minimum), and the Word is divine in nature, making him also God.
Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
We see a repeat of verse 1 with the use of en, pros, and God with the article, reaffirming the timeless preexistence of the Word who was in active communion with the Father.
Joh 1:3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Simple, straightforward logic tells us that since "all things were made through" the Word, and that "without him was not any thing made that was made," it necessarily follows that the Word is not something that was made (see also 1 Cor 8:6; Col 1:16-17; Heb 1:2). That is, there never was a time when the Word did not exist.
John then makes it clear in verse 14 that "the Word became flesh and dwelt among us." That is, the Word entered into time--Greek for "become" is egeneto (same as "made" in verse 3)--and took on human flesh. This is all precisely what Paul is speaking of in Phil 2:5-8.
Ideas, statements, speeches, etc., cannot fit with what John was meaning; only a person can. Only a person can be in intimate relationship with another person.
And that is supported by 1 John 4:8 and 16--"God is love." The highest and fullest expression of love is an action from one person to another (such as in John 15:13). If God's nature is love, then it necessarily must have always been expressed in the highest and fullest expression within himself, since there are no other gods. But if God is unitarian, wouldn't that be impossible? God would have needed creation in order to love. However, if God needed creation in order to become love, then he could not be love; love could not be intrinsic to his nature. It only makes sense if God is a Trinity (or at least a "binity"), that love can be an attribute of being. That agrees rather well with John 1:1b and 1:2, does it not?
John is remarkably consistent. What he states in the prologue of his gospel is also very much in line with what Jesus says about himself, which is precisely why John states what he does:
Joh 6:38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.
…
Joh 6:62 Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before?
Joh 8:23 He said to them, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.
Joh 8:24 I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.”
…
Joh 8:58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”
Joh 12:44 And Jesus cried out and said, “Whoever believes in me, believes not in me but in him who sent me.
Joh 12:45 And whoever sees me sees him who sent me.
Joh 12:46 I have come into the world as light, so that whoever believes in me may not remain in darkness.
Joh 13:3 Jesus, knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he had come from God and was going back to God,
Joh 16:27 for the Father himself loves you, because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God.
Joh 16:28 I came from the Father and have come into the world, and now I am leaving the world and going to the Father.”
Joh 16:29 His disciples said, “Ah, now you are speaking plainly and not using figurative speech!
Joh 16:30 Now we know that you know all things and do not need anyone to question you; this is why we believe that you came from God.”
Joh 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.
Joh 17:4 I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do.
Joh 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.
...
Joh 17:8 For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me.
...
Joh 17:23 I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me.
Joh 17:24 Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world.
(All ESV.)
Multiple times Jesus explicitly states that he "is from above," that he "came from God," and was "sent" into the world by the Father. And, that isn't an exhaustive list. So, we can clearly see that the Word is not a mere personification, but rather is the preincarnate Son, having existed for eternity "past" in an intimate, loving relationship with God, the agent of creation, being also truly God in nature and equal to the Father.
As for Col 1:16-17, we see Paul repeat John 1:3:
Col 1:16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. (ESV)
Again, simple logic shows us that Jesus (rather the Son) cannot have been created--there never was a time when he did not exist--otherwise what Paul (and John) says is false (also in 1 Cor 8:6). "All things" means "all things ever created," as is evidenced by "in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities." It is also worth noting that it is in the Son that "all things hold together." That is not speaking of only the new creation; that is speaking of all that has ever been created. We see all of this repeated in Hebrews:
Heb 1:2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.
Heb 1:3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, (ESV)
And, we must also include the support of Heb 1:10-12, where the Father says of the Son:
Heb 1:10 And, “You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands;
Heb 1:11 they will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment,
Heb 1:12 like a robe you will roll them up, like a garment they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will have no end.” (ESV)
Is that true or is the writer of Hebrews wrong and being blasphemous by having the Father attribute a creation passage of Yahweh to the Son?
Now, as to the topic, here is what Paul gives us in Romans:
Rom 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.
Rom 10:11 For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.”
Rom 10:12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him.
Rom 10:13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” (ESV)
Paul is equating confess "Jesus is Lord" with calling "on the name of the Lord [Yahweh]." That is very consistent with all the passages above.
Curious theory. Can you find similar examples where a "Personification" becomes flesh, dwells among humans who behold His glory, how He is full of grace and truth?
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. (Jn. 1:14 NKJ)
If you cannot cite other examples of this occurring, in scripture or other literature....It would appear to be a "false theory", an "impossible theory" that does not occur.
A "personification" didn't choose 12 disciples, preach and heal for 3+years, and then get crucified on a tree. It happened to the Word who became flesh. Ergo, He cannot be a personification.
Last edited:
Greetings again JLB,
John 10:29–36 (KJV): 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and my Father are one. 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
Kind regards
Trevor
Jesus is the major development of the Yahweh Name. The Name Yahweh is incorporated in the Name Jesus "Yah-Oshea", that is Jesus is Yahweh's Salvation. Jesus is the Saviour though whom the One God, Yahweh, God the Father has accomplished salvation, through His Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, a human, now exalted to sit at the right hand of God, in God the Father's Throne, and Jesus is The Son of God by birth, character and resurrection.
No, the Scriptures apply the Hebrew word "Elohim" to God, the Angels, the Judges, especially to the Lord Jesus Christ and in prospect to the resurrected faithful. As such the word "Elohim" has a wider range of meaning than our English word "God". Jesus explains one aspect of this when he is talking about the corrupt Judges in Israel, and this was being replicated by the current Sanhedrin:
John 10:29–36 (KJV): 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and my Father are one. 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
Kind regards
Trevor
Greetings Free,
Proverbs 8:22–31 (KJV): 22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. 23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. 24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. 25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth: 26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. 27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth: 28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep: 29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth: 30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him; 31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.
Another portion of Scripture that gives a partial personification to the "Word" is the following:
Isaiah 55:6–11 (KJV): 6 Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near: 7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon. 8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. 10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: 11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
Kind regards
Trevor
I appreciate your wide range of Trinitarian concepts. But to respond to John 1:1 and your statement above please answer: Who is the Wise Woman WISDOM, who was the companion of Yahweh in the creation?
Proverbs 8:22–31 (KJV): 22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. 23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. 24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. 25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth: 26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. 27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth: 28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep: 29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth: 30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him; 31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.
Another portion of Scripture that gives a partial personification to the "Word" is the following:
Isaiah 55:6–11 (KJV): 6 Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near: 7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon. 8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. 10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: 11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
Kind regards
Trevor
Greetings again Alfred Persson,
John 1:1 and John 1:14 are speaking in the realm of ideas, of how the Divine character became developed in a human, Jesus the only begotten Son of God, not the transmission of "God the Son" into the womb of Mary. We need to go to Matthew 1:20-21 and Luke 1:34-35 to understand the method whereby Jesus was conceived and born. To superimpose Trinitarain concepts into John 1, Matthew 1, Luke 1 is erroneous.
Kind regards
Trevor
God's thoughts, logic (Logos), plans, purposes came to a reality and became a human, flesh, in the birth, development and ministry of our Lord Jesus Christ and when John beheld Jesus he beheld his moral glory, full of grace and truth.
John 1:1 and John 1:14 are speaking in the realm of ideas, of how the Divine character became developed in a human, Jesus the only begotten Son of God, not the transmission of "God the Son" into the womb of Mary. We need to go to Matthew 1:20-21 and Luke 1:34-35 to understand the method whereby Jesus was conceived and born. To superimpose Trinitarain concepts into John 1, Matthew 1, Luke 1 is erroneous.
Kind regards
Trevor
Impossible theory, self contradiction. A thought isn't flesh, that demands everyone repents and then is crucified at Calvary. Or rises from the dead three days later.
You confuse a plan with a personification. Personifications happen in literature, not become flesh born of a virgin in Bethlehem.
No?
- Without a doubt the scriptures refer to the Angel of the LORD as God.
The scriptures in Exodus 3, plainly refers to the angel of the LORD that appeared to Moses.
And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. Exodus 3:2
The scriptures plainly state that Moses was afraid to look upon God.
Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:6
- Without a doubt the scriptures refer to the Angel of the LORD as God.
Here in Judges, Samson's parents have a visitation from the Angel of the LORD, and He reveals to them one of the many names the bible refers to as Jesus; Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God...
And the Angel of the LORD said to him, “Why do you ask My name, seeing it is wonderful?”
So Manoah took the young goat with the grain offering, and offered it upon the rock to the LORD. And He did a wondrous thing while Manoah and his wife looked on— it happened as the flame went up toward heaven from the altar—the Angel of the LORD ascended in the flame of the altar! When Manoah and his wife saw this, they fell on their faces to the ground. When the Angel of the LORD appeared no more to Manoah and his wife, then Manoah knew that He was the Angel of the LORD. And Manoah said to his wife, “We shall surely die, because we have seen God!” Judges 13:18-22
Again, without question the scriptures plainly refer to the Angel of the LORD as God.
- “We shall surely die, because we have seen God!”
Again in Zechariah --
In that day the LORD will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; the one who is feeble among them in that day shall be like David, and the house of David shall be like God, like the Angel of the LORD before them. It shall be in that day that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. Zechariah 12:8-10
- in that day shall be like David, and the house of David shall be like God, like the Angel of the LORD before them.
- And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced.
JLB
Greetings again Alfred Persson and JLB,
Kind regards
Trevor
You have ignored Proverbs 8. The focus of God's plan and purpose for this earth became realised in the birth, development and ministry of Jesus. It was a development, not because a separate GOD, God the Son accomplished all this. The result was all the work of the One God, Yahweh, God the Father though the responsiveness and trust of His human Son, our Lord Jesus Christ.
Yes, but you have ignored what I have stated and established.
Kind regards
Trevor
Hopefully we can now come to agree that the Angel of the LORD is God, not Michael the angel.
So the question remains:
Do you believe the Angel of the Lord is a reference to the Father or the Son?
Greetings again JLB,
The following is some of my exposition concerning the Judges being called "God":
The Role and Responsibility of the Judges
It is interesting to note that the translators had difficulty with the relevant verses where the Judges acted in the role of God (Hebrew Elohim):
Exodus 21:6 (KJV): 6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.
Exodus 21:6 (ASV): then his master shall bring him unto God, and shall bring him to the door, or unto the door-post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an awl; and he shall serve him for ever.
Exodus 22:8-9 (KJV): 8 If the thief be not found, then the master of the house shall be brought unto the judges, to see whether he have put his hand unto his neighbour's goods. 9 For all manner of trespass, whether it be for ox, for donkey, for sheep, for raiment, or for any manner of lost thing, which another challengeth to be his, the cause of both parties shall come before the judges; and whom the judges shall condemn, he shall pay double unto his neighbour.
Exodus 22:8-9 (ASV): 8 If the thief be not found, then the master of the house shall come near unto God, to see whether he have not put his hand unto his neighbor's goods. 9 For every matter of trespass, whether it be for ox, for donkey, for sheep, for raiment, or for any manner of lost thing, whereof one saith, This is it, the cause of both parties shall come before God; he whom God shall condemn shall pay double unto his neighbour.
The role and responsibility of the judges is indicated in the following:
Deuteronomy 1:17 (KJV): Ye shall not respect persons in judgment; but ye shall hear the small as well as the great; ye shall not be afraid of the face of man; for the judgment is God's: and the cause that is too hard for you, bring it unto me, and I will hear it.
2 Chronicles 19:6 (KJV): And said to the judges, Take heed what ye do: for ye judge not for man, but for the LORD, who is with you in the judgment.
So the judges were called God or gods because they were united in administering the work or judgements of God. Jesus was claiming a similar though superior role as The Son of God, by calling and claiming God as His Father. A careful consideration of verses 30 and 36 show that Jesus is not claiming to be God, but the Son of God.
John 10:30,36 (KJV): 30 I and my Father are one. 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
He was united with His Father in character and works.
Other passages relevant to the Judges:
Exodus 22:28 (KJV): Thou shalt not revile the gods, nor curse the ruler of thy people.
1 Samuel 2:25 (KJV): If one man sin against another, the judge (elohim) shall judge him (or mediate for him): but if a man sin against the LORD, who shall intreat for him? Notwithstanding they hearkened not unto the voice of their father, because the LORD would slay them.
I have been disappointed with your failure to comprehend so far, and I imagine based on this you will have similar difficulty with the ideas and concepts concerning the Judges being called "God" (Hebrew Elohim). I have added this at least for the benefit of those that can reasonably comprehend the obvious.
Kind regards
Trevor
I believe that the Angel that appeared to Moses was an ArchAngel, most probably Michael the ArchAngel. You are ignoring what I stated and established.
The following is some of my exposition concerning the Judges being called "God":
The Role and Responsibility of the Judges
It is interesting to note that the translators had difficulty with the relevant verses where the Judges acted in the role of God (Hebrew Elohim):
Exodus 21:6 (KJV): 6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.
Exodus 21:6 (ASV): then his master shall bring him unto God, and shall bring him to the door, or unto the door-post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an awl; and he shall serve him for ever.
Exodus 22:8-9 (KJV): 8 If the thief be not found, then the master of the house shall be brought unto the judges, to see whether he have put his hand unto his neighbour's goods. 9 For all manner of trespass, whether it be for ox, for donkey, for sheep, for raiment, or for any manner of lost thing, which another challengeth to be his, the cause of both parties shall come before the judges; and whom the judges shall condemn, he shall pay double unto his neighbour.
Exodus 22:8-9 (ASV): 8 If the thief be not found, then the master of the house shall come near unto God, to see whether he have not put his hand unto his neighbor's goods. 9 For every matter of trespass, whether it be for ox, for donkey, for sheep, for raiment, or for any manner of lost thing, whereof one saith, This is it, the cause of both parties shall come before God; he whom God shall condemn shall pay double unto his neighbour.
The role and responsibility of the judges is indicated in the following:
Deuteronomy 1:17 (KJV): Ye shall not respect persons in judgment; but ye shall hear the small as well as the great; ye shall not be afraid of the face of man; for the judgment is God's: and the cause that is too hard for you, bring it unto me, and I will hear it.
2 Chronicles 19:6 (KJV): And said to the judges, Take heed what ye do: for ye judge not for man, but for the LORD, who is with you in the judgment.
So the judges were called God or gods because they were united in administering the work or judgements of God. Jesus was claiming a similar though superior role as The Son of God, by calling and claiming God as His Father. A careful consideration of verses 30 and 36 show that Jesus is not claiming to be God, but the Son of God.
John 10:30,36 (KJV): 30 I and my Father are one. 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
He was united with His Father in character and works.
Other passages relevant to the Judges:
Exodus 22:28 (KJV): Thou shalt not revile the gods, nor curse the ruler of thy people.
1 Samuel 2:25 (KJV): If one man sin against another, the judge (elohim) shall judge him (or mediate for him): but if a man sin against the LORD, who shall intreat for him? Notwithstanding they hearkened not unto the voice of their father, because the LORD would slay them.
I have been disappointed with your failure to comprehend so far, and I imagine based on this you will have similar difficulty with the ideas and concepts concerning the Judges being called "God" (Hebrew Elohim). I have added this at least for the benefit of those that can reasonably comprehend the obvious.
Kind regards
Trevor
According to the scripture in Exodus 3 (as well as, Judges 13, and Zechariah 12) The Angel of the LORD is God.
And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire... Exodus 3:2
Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:6
JLB
Greetings again JLB,
When a person was brought before "Elohim" in Exodus 21:6 was it because God the Father or God the Son had taken on a human form in order to pass Judgement?
Kind regards
Trevor
I will commend one of your attributes, you are persistent, even if it is with a wrong doctrine, but it is getting to the stage that you are being tiresome and I am not sure if you are playing some game or other. If I mark your next post with "sad", you will know that I have had enough.
When a person was brought before "Elohim" in Exodus 21:6 was it because God the Father or God the Son had taken on a human form in order to pass Judgement?
Kind regards
Trevor
I hope you think about and study the following points and scriptures.
- The Angel of the LORD appeared to Moses.
- The Angel of the LORD stated He was the God of Abraham.
- Moses said He was afraid to look upon God.
Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock to the back of the desert, and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.”
So when the LORD saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!” And he said, “Here I am.”
Then He said, “Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.” Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:1-6
Furthermore:
- Angels are referred to as sons of God.
- The Angel of the LORD is The Son of God.
In Conclusion:
- The Angel of the LORD said His name was I AM.
- Jesus said He was I AM, and the Jews immediately picked stones to stone Him for His claim.
Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”
Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. John 8:57-59
May God bless you.
JLB
Greetings again JLB,
Kind regards
Trevor
The language and ideas are unique, but yes, I have considered this over many years, and what I have stated is my understanding of these things. The Angel represents Yahweh and speaks and acts on His behalf.
I have given my understanding of these passages in Post #235 as "I am he" for John 8:58 and "I will be" for Exodus 3:14. The KJV is a biased Trinitarian translation.
Kind regards
Trevor
Ok. I can somewhat agree with this statement, because it's true.
The Son does indeed represent His Father and speaks the will of the Father.
When we glorify the Son as YHWH, we are glorifying His Father as YHWH, because the Father sends the Son to express His will.
All these things are true.
Where we seem to disconnect is the scriptural fact that the Son is God, as the only Begotten of the Father.
He is not God the Father, but rather God the Son.
He has the same name as the Father.
I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one. John 17:11
- Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me
We must understand that the Name the Eternal Godhead has chosen to represent them is Jesus, the Name above every name.
For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; Colossians 2:9
If you like I would like to discuss this from another scripture.
JLB
The KJV
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. John 8:58
And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. Exodus 3:14
The phrase is the same; I AM
Jesus applied this name to Himself, I AM.
The Jews fully and completely understood He was applying this name to Himself, and they immediately picked up stones to stone Him for what they perceived as blasphemy; saying He was God.
JLB
Ok.
However, your perspective uses phrases such as
"I am he" for John 8:58 and "I will be" for Exodus 3:14.
When in fact Jesus and the Angel of the LORD specifically says I AM, thus you have ignored what the scripture says.
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I Am. John 8:58
And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. Exodus 3:14
Jesus applied this name to Himself, I AM.
The Jews fully and completely understood He was applying this name to Himself, and they immediately picked up stones to stone Him for what they perceived as blasphemy; saying He was God.
Anyway, thanks for your time.
God Bless.
JLB