Bible Study Christian nations or Christian nationalism

[RandyK]

Here is what I think was an interesting conversation I had with my brother regarding the promise to Abraham to bear "nations." My brother's comments are italicized.

Your email prompted me to look up the promise to Abraham. Genesis 12:2 says that God will make of him a great nation. Genesis 18:18 especially caught my eye, where God says that Abraham will "surely become a great and mighty nation and all the nations of the earth will be blessed in him." I also landed on Genesis 22:19, "And in your offspring shall all the nations of the earth be blessed."


These promises are a key to understanding Scripture, but the focus seems to be not so much on the nation, but on offspring who would come from that nation, Jesus. When I look for evidence of Israel becoming a great and mighty nation, I find that as well, though, in the reigns of David, Solomon, Hezekiah, and Josiah. Paul says that they were a blessing by their unbelief in that the Gentiles received the Gospel, and it will be a blessing again should they be grafted back into the olive tree (Romans 11:12)."

In my view, when the Scriptures indicate that Abraham's offspring or Israel's offspring would bless the whole world, the idea is on Christ ultimately, but certainly at the time was focused on the people of Israel as a whole, particularly among those who shared the faith of Abraham. Christ is the focus of our Salvation, but the People of God carried out the ministry that is associated with getting that message across.

Israel was still a full "nation" when the Gospel came to be. So it could be said that the "nation blessed the world" when only a relative few were believers and transmitted that message to the rest of the world. But at that point the "nation," as such, had fallen on hard times, and was not, for the most part, exemplary of Christian standards. It was about to fall.

The remnant of Jewish believers then ceased to be a "national blessing" to the world. The Gentile Church picked up where Israel left off, becoming themselves "Christian nations." They were just beginning in faith, and God allowed them time for development, just as He had for Israel. But this history goes well beyond the Scriptural account, and in my view is not "unscriptural" with regard to the prophecies that predicted "nations" to Abraham.


"These are wonderful insights into God's plan for Israel. Beyond that, though, I don't find a promise of God raising up, for example, Christian theocracies. Is that what we are talking about? It sure has been tried, but the failures have been spectacular."


I've come to hate the word "theocracy" because with the Protestant Reformation, opposing Catholic imperial government, and with the Enlightenment opposing the establishment of religion, Christian "national" status has lost any appeal in the modern world. With bad examples of Christian government in Catholic countries and with bad examples of a "theocracy" in Islamic countries, the idea of a Christian theocracy has completely lost favor.

However, the promise to Abraham of the nation Israel and of the nations, to join in with Abraham's faith, one has to accept that a political state went along with the whole idea of "nations." Israel had a monarchy, which when joined with the Law of God, came to represent a kind of "theocracy." God certainly sanctioned both the monarchy/theocracy combo, and fully embraced David's political rule.

It would not be different if a modern democratic government, which was predominantly "Christian," called itself a Christian "theocracy." It would not be a subversive use of the term "theocracy," but more, the idea of a political government deliberately placed under divine government.

If Jesus sanctioned the Davidic kings, and saw that as a partial fulfillment of God's promise to Abraham, then "theocracies" are indeed a part of God's plan for fulfilling God's promise to Abraham to bring about believing nations. Again, this is just my opinion, recognizing it involves controversial terms and is therefore unpopular.


"You mentioned that the word "salvation" is key. I can understand that it is, but if we're talking biblical theology, then biblical terms must be given meaning based on the specific text they are found in. You are right in that "salvation" has many uses and references in the Bible, but their meanings are unique to their context. If we're going to talk about political salvation, I would be interested in knowing from which Scripture the idea or meaning of "political" is taken. Maybe part of my challenge is that where the idea of modern nation is different than that of the Bible, the idea of "political" seems a rather modern term not found in Scripture to my knowledge. I imagine that alone becomes a red flag for some on the forum. If there is a verse or verses where political salvation is mentioned in Scripture, perhaps in synonymous terms, a case might be built for using that expression with greater clarity."


The Scriptures that refer to "salvation" combine, as I suggested, the ideas of political and spiritual salvation. If you look at the blessings and the curses on Mt. Gerizim and Mt. Ebal, you will see the connection I alluded to. Israel repents, in order to achieve a spiritual connection with God, and the result is political salvation.

Spiritual Salvation is more fully developed in the New Testament because Eternal Life was not given under the Law. Spiritual Salvation, under the Law, then would not be viewed as "Eternal Salvation," but only as a temporary deliverance from suffering a variety of curses for disobedience. This is where "political salvation" comes into play.


"Again, my focus is on how words are used in Scripture and using their context to understand what is meant by them. I think that is foundational to exegesis, and exegesis is foundational to biblical theology. At the same time, I realize that there are volumes written on theology with little Scripture cited. I've had to read some of those. (Those liberal Germans!) But I find that the appeal is to philosophy, to ethics, to comparative religion, to history, etc. It ends up sounding to me like the tree of knowledge, where we can determine from our own thinking apart from God what is truth about God. That is not at all what you are doing, but I think my experience in this area has given me a bias against much of that kind of reasoning. Give me Scripture.
Mark Kluth"


Thanks, I do understand since I've been sharing these things for years. I know the responses, but I appreciate your unique perspective as someone well-educated in the language of Scriptures.

Much of what I believe is indeed about the language of Scriptures. The terms may not be "political salvation," but the concept of political deliverance is there, alluding to a spiritual connection as well.

I don't think these things are quickly sorted out because of the long history of hate for all things Christian, including for Christian government and Christian statehood or Christian nationality. I don't like to use the word "Christian nationalism" because that conveys an activist sense of forcing Christianity upon a nation and a state. I think to be truly Christian, a country would have to have a virtual consensus with a predominant group who genuinely believe and want laws favoring Christianity and disfavoring immoral, pagan practices. I'm not a "freedom for all religions" kind of guy except that under our current post-Christian, or semi-Christian democracy, it's either freedom for all religions or freedom for none at all.

Thanks again for your well-thought-out response. I don't know how much we'll agree or disagree on these matters, but it's always fun to look at things from all angles, positive or negative. My purpose is not to use controversial issues for notoriety or attention. Rather, my aim is to understand the word of God and to promote it faithfully out of love for God.
Randy

 

[RandyK]

I needed to cleanup the post a little, and can no longer "edit." So I'm re-posting....

Here is what I think was an interesting conversation I had with my brother regarding the promise to Abraham to bear "nations." My brother's comments are italicized.

Your email prompted me to look up the promise to Abraham. Genesis 12:2 says that God will make of him a great nation. Genesis 18:18 especially caught my eye, where God says that Abraham will "surely become a great and mighty nation and all the nations of the earth will be blessed in him." I also landed on Genesis 22:19, "And in your offspring shall all the nations of the earth be blessed."

These promises are a key to understanding Scripture, but the focus seems to be not so much on the nation, but on offspring who would come from that nation, Jesus. When I look for evidence of Israel becoming a great and mighty nation, I find that as well, though, in the reigns of David, Solomon, Hezekiah, and Josiah. Paul says that they were a blessing by their unbelief in that the Gentiles received the Gospel, and it will be a blessing again should they be grafted back into the olive tree (Romans 11:12)."


In my view, when the Scriptures indicate that Abraham's offspring or Israel's offspring would bless the whole world, the idea is on Christ ultimately, but certainly at the time was focused on the people of Israel as a whole, particularly among those who shared the faith of Abraham. Christ is the focus of our Salvation, but the People of God carried out the ministry that is associated with getting that message across.

Israel was still a full "nation" when the Gospel came to be. So it could be said that the "nation blessed the world" when only a relative few were believers and transmitted that message to the rest of the world. But at that point the "nation," as such, had fallen on hard times, and was not, for the most part, exemplary of Christian standards. It was about to fall.

The remnant of Jewish believers then ceased to be a "national blessing" to the world. The Gentile Church picked up where Israel left off, becoming themselves "Christian nations." They were just beginning in faith, and God allowed them time for development, just as He had for Israel. But this history goes well beyond the Scriptural account, and in my view is not "unscriptural" with regard to the prophecies that predicted "nations" to Abraham.


"These are wonderful insights into God's plan for Israel. Beyond that, though, I don't find a promise of God raising up, for example, Christian theocracies. Is that what we are talking about? It sure has been tried, but the failures have been spectacular."


I've come to hate the word "theocracy" because with the Protestant Reformation, opposing Catholic imperial government, and with the Enlightenment opposing the establishment of religion, Christian "national" status has lost any appeal in the modern world. With bad examples of Christian government in Catholic countries and with bad examples of a "theocracy" in Islamic countries, the idea of a Christian theocracy has completely lost favor.

However, the promise to Abraham of the nation Israel and of the nations, to join in with Abraham's faith, one has to accept that a political state went along with the whole idea of "nations." Israel had a monarchy, which when joined with the Law of God, came to represent a kind of "theocracy." God certainly sanctioned both the monarchy/theocracy combo, and fully embraced David's political rule.

It would not be different if a modern democratic government, which was predominantly "Christian," called itself a Christian "theocracy." It would not be a subversive use of the term "theocracy," but more, the idea of a political government deliberately placed under divine government.

If Jesus sanctioned the Davidic kings, and saw that as a partial fulfillment of God's promise to Abraham, then "theocracies" are indeed a part of God's plan for fulfilling God's promise to Abraham to bring about believing nations. Again, this is just my opinion, recognizing it involves controversial terms and is therefore unpopular.


"You mentioned that the word "salvation" is key. I can understand that it is, but if we're talking biblical theology, then biblical terms must be given meaning based on the specific text they are found in. You are right in that "salvation" has many uses and references in the Bible, but their meanings are unique to their context. If we're going to talk about political salvation, I would be interested in knowing from which Scripture the idea or meaning of "political" is taken. Maybe part of my challenge is that where the idea of modern nation is different than that of the Bible, the idea of "political" seems a rather modern term not found in Scripture to my knowledge. I imagine that alone becomes a red flag for some on the forum. If there is a verse or verses where political salvation is mentioned in Scripture, perhaps in synonymous terms, a case might be built for using that expression with greater clarity."


The Scriptures that refer to "salvation" combine, as I suggested, the ideas of political and spiritual salvation. If you look at the blessings and the curses on Mt. Gerizim and Mt. Ebal, you will see the connection I alluded to. Israel repents, in order to achieve a spiritual connection with God, and the result is political salvation.

Spiritual Salvation is more fully developed in the New Testament because Eternal Life was not given under the Law. Spiritual Salvation, under the Law, then would not be viewed as "Eternal Salvation," but only as a temporary deliverance from suffering a variety of curses for disobedience. This is where "political salvation" comes into play.


"Again, my focus is on how words are used in Scripture and using their context to understand what is meant by them. I think that is foundational to exegesis, and exegesis is foundational to biblical theology. At the same time, I realize that there are volumes written on theology with little Scripture cited. I've had to read some of those. (Those liberal Germans!) But I find that the appeal is to philosophy, to ethics, to comparative religion, to history, etc. It ends up sounding to me like the tree of knowledge, where we can determine from our own thinking apart from God what is truth about God. That is not at all what you are doing, but I think my experience in this area has given me a bias against much of that kind of reasoning. Give me Scripture.
Mark Kluth"


Thanks, I do understand since I've been sharing these things for years. I know the responses, but I appreciate your unique perspective as someone well-educated in the language of Scriptures.

Much of what I believe is indeed about the language of Scriptures. The terms may not be "political salvation," but the concept of political deliverance is there, alluding to a spiritual connection as well.

I don't think these things are quickly sorted out because of the long history of hate for all things Christian, including for Christian government and Christian statehood or Christian nationality. I don't like to use the word "Christian nationalism" because that conveys an activist sense of forcing Christianity upon a nation and a state. I think to be truly Christian, a country would have to have a virtual consensus with a predominant group who genuinely believe and want laws favoring Christianity and disfavoring immoral, pagan practices. I'm not a "freedom for all religions" kind of guy except that under our current post-Christian, or semi-Christian democracy, it's either freedom for all religions or freedom for none at all.

Thanks again for your well-thought-out response. I don't know how much we'll agree or disagree on these matters, but it's always fun to look at things from all angles, positive or negative. My purpose is not to use controversial issues for notoriety or attention. Rather, my aim is to understand the word of God and to promote it faithfully out of love for God.
Randy

 

[RandyK]

The following conversation on another forum shows the typical reponse I get from others when I identify "Christian nations" as the literal fulfillment of God's promises to Abraham...

[Someone Said]....
There has never been such thing as "The Gentile Church". And who were these "Christian nations" that you're talking about?

[I Said]...
I get this response all the time. It's very strange since all one has to do is look it up on the internet. You might as well ask me where I get the notion of "Christian" or the notion of "nation?" It's extremely weird to me because with the tremendous opposition there is to the very thing God promised Abraham we get a complete denial of what has been and what still is.

I'm adding a little more to this response this morning, because I think I owe it to you. Often "Church" is used in a more comprehensive way, referring to an imagined collection of churches comprising God's People. This is as opposed to using the word "church" in only the local sense of individual churches.

So when I refer to the "Gentile Church" I'm identifying the predominance of nations not including Israel, primarily because Israel ceased to exist as a nation for many hundreds of years. In effect the entire collection of Christian denominations consisted of nations that were not "Israel."

Some Christians, however, define "Israel" as a spiritualized term referring to all believers, Jewish or non-Jewish. I don't share that view, nor do I believe in Replacement Theology.

When Israel lost her national status, it was thought by many Christians that God was defacing political realities that distinguish nations and ethnic groups, and declaring irrelevant the separation of nations that use words like "Gentiles" or "Christians." Terms like "Germany" or "German" came to be viewed as antithetical to any sense of who a "Christian" was.

Whatever one believes, it is normal in Christian literature and discussion to refer to "Christian nations" when a country is viewed as favoring Christianity predominantly, with no sense that the entire nation has to be 100% Christian or that 100% of the Christians in that country have to be perfect followers of Jesus' teachings.

The thought is only that the majority in a nation has favored Christianity among all religions and has wished to use Christian values as the primary interest in producing society's laws and customs. To deny that "Christian nations" is used or has value in conversation therefore seems to be just a means to avoid discussion that does not see God's promises as neutral with respect to nationality and ethnicity.

 

[miamited]

Hey RandyK

Well, I don't believe that there are any christian nations. There are only christian people. The only nation that was ever created to be beholden to God was Israel and they failed miserably at it. I don't think anyone who is familiar with the teachings of the Scriptures could possibly look at any nation now existing upon the earth and make the claim that such nation is a christian nation. But there are several nations with many christians working as a part of their people to spread the gospel of Jesus and who believe in the one true and living God.

Christian nationalism on the other hand is a great misnomer and danger as it is practiced today. It foments a lot of the hate that we see evident in nations that attempt to practice it.

 

[JLB]

At the same time, I realize that there are volumes written on theology with little Scripture cited. I've had to read some of those. (Those liberal Germans!) But I find that the appeal is to philosophy, to ethics, to comparative religion, to history, etc. It ends up sounding to me like the tree of knowledge, where we can determine from our own thinking apart from God what is truth about God.

Beautiful!!!



Big salute to your brother.

 

[JLB]

Hey RandyK

Well, I don't believe that there are any christian nations. There are only christian people. The only nation that was ever created to be beholden to God was Israel and they failed miserably at it. I don't think anyone who is familiar with the teachings of the Scriptures could possibly look at any nation now existing upon the earth and make the claim that such nation is a christian nation. But there are several nations with many christians working as a part of their people to spread the gospel of Jesus and who believe in the one true and living God.

Christian nationalism on the other hand is a great misnomer and danger as it is practiced today. It foments a lot of the hate that we see evident in nations that attempt to practice it.

I believe the Christians in any nation would rather have a leader whose policies are aligned with their beliefs.

Wouldn’t you?

 

[miamited]

I believe the Christians in any nation would rather have a leader whose policies are aligned with their beliefs.

Wouldn’t you?

Hey JLB

Absolutely! But I've read the Scriptures. That isn't going to happen. But yes, I've always voted for the person whose beliefs more closely aligned with mine.

 

[RandyK]

Hey RandyK

Well, I don't believe that there are any christian nations. There are only christian people.

Hi Ted, we disagree on this. Many people disagree with me on this--not on use of the term "Christian nations" but rather, on any sense that Christians nations are part of God's plan.

The only nation that was ever created to be beholden to God was Israel and they failed miserably at it.

I don't think God fails at anything, including on producing the Israeli nation. It's a temporary setback, in my opinion.

I don't think anyone who is familiar with the teachings of the Scriptures could possibly look at any nation now existing upon the earth and make the claim that such nation is a christian nation.

I don't know how anybody, familiar with history, can deny that there have been *many* Christian nations?

But there are several nations with many christians working as a part of their people to spread the gospel of Jesus and who believe in the one true and living God.

There are Christians in nations, and there are Christian nations. Only the ignorant would say otherwise. However, you may be saying something else, in the theological sense?

Christian nationalism on the other hand is a great misnomer and danger as it is practiced today. It foments a lot of the hate that we see evident in nations that attempt to practice it.

I don't believe Christian nationalists are hateful just because they believe in striving to make their nation Christian. But I do think they are uninspired if they think they can coerce a people to be a Christian nation when that nation's majority don't wish to have that.

 

[RandyK]

Beautiful!!!



Big salute to your brother.

He's a good brother, but I disagree with his denial that there is such a thing as Christian nations. Anybody who knows history knows there have been many Christian nations. My brother has a major, I think, in history, and yet he denies, as you do, such a thing as Christian nations.

I think it is because when we think of God promising Abraham children we can only think of those children being true-blue Christians--born again Christians. We cannot think of something so secular as a nation being a truly born again, Christian nation.

But can you imagine saying you don't live in a house because the house is flawed? Neither can I question that a Christian nation is a Christian nation just because some nominal Christians there are insincere.

I wouldn't say it has ceased to be of God's interst only because some are given to produce precious materials and some more common materials. Together they comprise a society that benefits and produces true Christians. The nation is a means to an end, and is precisely what God promised Abraham.

So we respectfully disagree. But I'm not going to die on this hill. There are more important things we must agree on than this one issue.

 

[miamited]

Hi Ted, we disagree on this. Many people disagree with me on this--not on use of the term "Christian nations" but rather, on any sense that Christians nations are part of God's plan.

Hey RandyK

You're certainly welcome to disagree on the matter. And as you've already noted, you're understanding is out of step with many others, also. But I think it says in the Scriptures that all the nations will ultimately rise up against Jesus and his army and Israel when he returns, but you're certainly able to disagree with my understanding. Question: Can you name for me a nation that you believe has ever been a christian nation?

I don't think God fails at anything, including on producing the Israeli nation. It's a temporary setback, in my opinion.

Odd how you read things into comments that aren't there. I never said that God failed at anything. I said Israel failed to honor and follow God's commands. But you read that to mean that I believe that God has failed at something, hmmmmm. Is that generally how your reading comprehension works? That you start with some preconceived worldview as you read and, therefore, try to fit other's comments into that worldview understanding without actually comprehending what the writer is saying

No!!! Absolutely God has never failed at anything. People fail. And even with the rampant failure of Israel overall, God still accomplished the task through them that He set out to do. He had them to write out His testimony to the world and then had them to slay the final Passover Lamb. Having His promise to Abraham fulfilled. That his generations would be a blessing to all people.

I don't know how anybody, familiar with history, can deny that there have been *many* Christian nations?

Well, I set before you in my first response above the opportunity for you to name some of them.

Only the ignorant would say otherwise. However, you may be saying something else, in the theological sense?

No, I think that you understood my claim correctly. I have no problem with your seeing me as ignorant as regards that matter. But of course, after you've listed for me all of the christian nations throughout history, maybe I'll revise my understanding.

I don't believe Christian nationalists are hateful just because they believe in striving to make their nation Christian. But I do think they are uninspired if they think they can coerce a people to be a Christian nation when that nation's majority don't wish to have that.

Have you read the second half of the first chapter, as we divide the Scriptures, of Paul's letter to the Roman believers? Have you read Paul's instructions to us that we are not to judge those who are not a part of us? And is it your understanding that if we can stop women from having abortions, or people from other nations to desire to live here and make attempt to do that, or 'heal' someone with some sexual immorality that we are increasing the kingdom of our God?

Look, Jesus has told you what you are to do as you sojourn on this earth among the lost and dying, condemned to eternal separation from God. Spread the gospel. That for the sexually immoral who divorce their spouse; for those who are confused about their sexual nature; to those who want to live in a greedy consumer centered nation; to those who find themselves considering ending a pregnancy, that God calls all of that nature and desire in our hearts... sin. But He has made a way through His Son, that those sins can be forgiven. For those who will believe, baptize them. For those who have believed and been baptized... then teaching them to obey all that he has commanded. You see, we keep trying to do it backwards. Condemning and hating all those who are sinners and pointing our fingers at them as to how very disgusting they are before God. And quite generally never even mentioning to them that there is a cure for their sin. We just want to point our fingers in condemnation at people who are exactly like you and I used to be.

Anyway, today I will be traveling for 16 hours. Flying from Panama City to South Carolina. And hoping that the CBP finds me worthy to re-enter the country,

i think all that I have written here is supported in the Scriptures.

 

[JLB]

My brother has a major, I think, in history, and yet he denies, as you do, such a thing as Christian nations.

Wow. That’s interesting. I didn’t know that I denied such a thing as a Christian nation.

 

[JLB]

He's a good brother, but I disagree with his denial that there is such a thing as Christian nations. Anybody who knows history knows there have been many Christian nations. My brother has a major, I think, in history, and yet he denies, as you do, such a thing as Christian nations.

I think it is because when we think of God promising Abraham children we can only think of those children being true-blue Christians--born again Christians. We cannot think of something so secular as a nation being a truly born again, Christian nation.

But can you imagine saying you don't live in a house because the house is flawed? Neither can I question that a Christian nation is a Christian nation just because some nominal Christians there are insincere.

I wouldn't say it has ceased to be of God's interst only because some are given to produce precious materials and some more common materials. Together they comprise a society that benefits and produces true Christians. The nation is a means to an end, and is precisely what God promised Abraham.

So we respectfully disagree. But I'm not going to die on this hill. There are more important things we must agree on than this one issue.

What I was saluting about your brother, was what I quoted from his email.

Not that he denies there are no such things as Christian nations.

Remember, just because some of the citizens of a nation may not be Christian, doesn’t mean it’s not a Christian nation.

If the leader of a nation and those who elected him are Christian’s, and they leader declares that nation to be Christian, then it’s a Christian nation.

Of course when I say Christian I’m referring to true Christian’s.


Obama declared openly that America was no longer a Christian nation.

The highest authority in a nation or kingdom Carrie’s a lot of weight spiritually.

That is why Satan fights so hard to get his man or woman as a leader of a nation installed, (even by fraud).

If America wasn’t a Christian nation, then why did Obama say America is no longer a Christian nation.

 

[JLB]

He's a good brother, but I disagree with his denial that there is such a thing as Christian nations. Anybody who knows history knows there have been many Christian nations. My brother has a major, I think, in history, and yet he denies, as you do, such a thing as Christian nations.

I think it is because when we think of God promising Abraham children we can only think of those children being true-blue Christians--born again Christians. We cannot think of something so secular as a nation being a truly born again, Christian nation.

But can you imagine saying you don't live in a house because the house is flawed? Neither can I question that a Christian nation is a Christian nation just because some nominal Christians there are insincere.

I wouldn't say it has ceased to be of God's interst only because some are given to produce precious materials and some more common materials. Together they comprise a society that benefits and produces true Christians. The nation is a means to an end, and is precisely what God promised Abraham.

So we respectfully disagree. But I'm not going to die on this hill. There are more important things we must agree on than this one issue.

Here we see God’s will for the earth, that all nations and kingdoms become Christian Nations.

• The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ

Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!” Revelation 11:15


If anyone doesn’t want to see their nation turn to Christ, then their is only one other option; they want their nation to turn to Satan.

 

[JLB]

but I disagree with his denial that there is such a thing as Christian nations.

So do I.

 

[RandyK]

Hey RandyK

You're certainly welcome to disagree on the matter. And as you've already noted, you're understanding is out of step with many others, also. But I think it says in the Scriptures that all the nations will ultimately rise up against Jesus and his army and Israel when he returns, but you're certainly able to disagree with my understanding. Question: Can you name for me a nation that you believe has ever been a christian nation?

Look up "Christian State" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_state) or "Christendom" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christendom) or "Christianity by Country" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_by_country)

Constantine brought tolerance of Christianity into the Roman Empire, and Theodosius made Christianity the official religion of the Empire. Both branches, Eastern and Western, became "Christendom" from then on, the Eastern part the Orthodox Church and the Western part the Catholic Church. They made not just a nation "Christian" but they made an empire "Christian."

As this great Empire receded and evolved, the various states of Europe picked up the "Christian" mantle independently, even as the imperial Christian entity continued via the Holy Roman Empire. Both Eastern and Western states of Europe, and colonial states emerging elsewhere, have claimed to be "Christian countries" or "Christian states."

How people cannot acknowledge this I don't know? I think the problem is theological, rather than lingual. We twist the meaning of words rather than acknowledge the reality, as I see it.

Odd how you read things into comments that aren't there. I never said that God failed at anything. I said Israel failed to honor and follow God's commands. But you read that to mean that I believe that God has failed at something, hmmmmm. Is that generally how your reading comprehension works? That you start with some preconceived worldview as you read and, therefore, try to fit other's comments into that worldview understanding without actually comprehending what the writer is saying

No, it's just the way I answered that offends you. I certainly wasn't saying that *you said* God failed! ;) I was putting a twist on my answer by relying on the assumption that it's true--God promised Abraham the biological inheritance of a nation in perpetuity, ie Israel. If so, and I'm making that assumption, then God would have to "fail" if He did not enable Israel to prevail through their apparent failures.

In fact it can be said that Israel did fail miserably (not God). But inasmuch as God promised their failure would not be in perpetuity God would have to fail if He did not restore them eventually.

Comprendes? I'm sorry if you drew the conclusion that I felt *you* were calling God a "liar!" I certainly don't think that.

Have you read the second half of the first chapter, as we divide the Scriptures, of Paul's letter to the Roman believers?

I memorized most all of Romans back in the early 70s. I have obviously read and was interested in the letter! ;)

Have you read Paul's instructions to us that we are not to judge those who are not a part of us? And is it your understanding that if we can stop women from having abortions, or people from other nations to desire to live here and make attempt to do that, or 'heal' someone with some sexual immorality that we are increasing the kingdom of our God?

Look, Jesus has told you what you are to do as you sojourn on this earth among the lost and dying, condemned to eternal separation from God. Spread the gospel. That for the sexually immoral who divorce their spouse; for those who are confused about their sexual nature; to those who want to live in a greedy consumer centered nation; to those who find themselves considering ending a pregnancy, that God calls all of that nature and desire in our hearts... sin. But He has made a way through His Son, that those sins can be forgiven. For those who will believe, baptize them. For those who have believed and been baptized... then teaching them to obey all that he has commanded. You see, we keep trying to do it backwards. Condemning and hating all those who are sinners and pointing our fingers at them as to how very disgusting they are before God. And quite generally never even mentioning to them that there is a cure for their sin. We just want to point our fingers in condemnation at people who are exactly like you and I used to be.

1st, I don't think preaching the Gospel is our 1st duty as a Christian. If it were so we would many of us be abject failures because most of us can't say we lead more than a very few to the Lord in our Christian lives.

God made us "witnesses," and that is something different. Our witness is to bring conviction to those who are in sin in the hope they repent. If they don't repent they were warned. That's our job, to live it, to speak it, but not to badger people with the truth, which just turns them away.

It is not, by the way, "judging" in a malicious way to speak out our view that certain behaviors of biblically wrong and morally bankrupt. It is indeed our duty to "judge" in this way--just not in an improper way. There are several forms of wrong "judging," such as judging by appearnaces only or judging before the time.

But we are to judge those within the church who are not acting accordingly. And we indirectly judge others simply by living an exemplary life and stating that we think to live otherwise is "sin." In some capacities we may have to judge more directly, such as if we were an actual court judge, an officer of a Christian state, or a prophet like John the Baptist who judged King Herod, and was killed for it.

A Christian State has every right to make illegal homosexual behavior, abortions, transgender practices and the like. Even written material that is subversive to common Christian morality can be banned in such a state, and should be, if peace is desired in the country. But a Christian State must have a dominant Christian majority for this to succeed, or there will be civil war.

Activist nationalism of the Christian kind is, I feel, a form of zealotry that is not what God required when asking of us a testimony. We are to have an answer for those who ask when our light so shines that some are interested. We are to live pure lives and to shun the invitation to wickedness that surrounds us in non-Christian countries and even in Christian countries that are suffering a moral collapse.

I hope this helps. Hope your flight goes well. Thanks for your questions and your interest. I have no wish to offend you with the way I answer--I'm flawed.
Randy

 

[RandyK]

Wow. That’s interesting. I didn’t know that I denied such a thing as a Christian nation.

Maybe you didn't. My brother Mark and I were discussing whether a "Christian nation" is a biblical concept, and you applauded Mark's contribution, which did not see the concept of a "Christian nation" biblical. Sorry if I drew the wrong conclusion!

 

[RandyK]

What I was saluting about your brother, was what I quoted from his email.

Not that he denies there are no such things as Christian nations.

Remember, just because some of the citizens of a nation may not be Christian, doesn’t mean it’s not a Christian nation.

If the leader of a nation and those who elected him are Christian’s, and they leader declares that nation to be Christian, then it’s a Christian nation.

Of course when I say Christian I’m referring to true Christian’s.

This is probably the best answer I've received in the number of years I've raised this issue on the forums. Usually I get an angry response indicating how wrong I am to think a "Christian nation" is truly "Christian!" ;)

You're right. The whole problem revolves around "how Christian" a Christian nation really is, and whether that nation is the thing that God promised Abraham. Whether you agree or not I sincerely appreciate the way you phrased this and answered it!

Obama declared openly that America was no longer a Christian nation.

The highest authority in a nation or kingdom Carrie’s a lot of weight spiritually.

That is why Satan fights so hard to get his man or woman as a leader of a nation installed, (even by fraud).

If America wasn’t a Christian nation, then why did Obama say America is no longer a Christian nation.

My brother sent this to me:

 

[JLB]

This is probably the best answer I've received in the number of years I've raised this issue on the forums. Usually I get an angry response indicating how wrong I am to think a "Christian nation" is truly "Christian!" ;)

You're right. The whole problem revolves around "how Christian" a Christian nation really is, and whether that nation is the thing that God promised Abraham. Whether you agree or not I sincerely appreciate the way you phrased this and answered it!

My brother sent this to me:

Your brother may be coming around.

Did you read post 13.

 

[RandyK]

Here we see God’s will for the earth, that all nations and kingdoms become Christian Nations.

• The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ

Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!” Revelation 11:15


If anyone doesn’t want to see their nation turn to Christ, then their is only one other option; they want their nation to turn to Satan.

Wonderfully said! Thank you. Sorry if I misread some of your comments. The real issue for me concerns what God was promising Abraham when he promised him "nations," and how it is being fulfilled. I appreciate you regardless of your position on this.

Most Christians see being Born Again more important than being part of a "Christian nation" or even part of a "Christian church." And I think that's right.

So the important thing is that we be "saved." Studying my question is also an important part of God's word, and so I explore it as indicated. Understanding Abraham's Covenant and how it is to be fulfilled is a very big part of the Scriptures. We can only benefit from understanding it properly.

But on the issue of "Christian nations" emerging as an answer to Abraham we have to look beyond Scriptures, because Scriptures stopped being written before Christian nations even emerged. We have to indulge in a bit of speculation, even as we try to stay on point with the Scriptures.

 

[RandyK]

Your brother may be coming around.

Did you read post 13.

My brother has taught at a Christian school and pioneered a baby church for the Christian Missionary Alliance. It has done well. He then went on to be administrator at a local high school. I'm not so arrogant as to talk down to him. ;)

We argue but we love each other. He will never sacrifice his convictions for me, his brother, and the same for me. We love each other *in the Lord* too much!

I'm in the process of reading your posts. You have a good spirit, and that matters more to me than agreeing on speculative beliefs.