[__ Prayer __] Too Formal or not?

[RandyK]

Liturgical worship--sacramentalism or genuine?
I don't think anybody would *claim* that repetitious statements of love and worship for God is a bad thing. If for no other reason, repetition fixes an idea in our minds--something we need to do in our worship of God.

But can repetition lead to an excess? Can form displace substance in our liturgical worship? Of course it can!

If we, for example, wish to show our love for our wife by opening a door for her, repeating this exercise isn't any less "loving" or "real" if we do it for the thousandth time! But if in our heart we lose love for our wife, and simply open the door for her out of a formality, out of fear of social pressure, then obviously repetition does not reinforce love at all.

In our worship, our love for God should have an element of spontaneity, if our love is genuine. We don't have to be told how to perform, or cued as to when to be polite or friendly. Out of love and respect for our God we always defer to Him, humble ourselves before Him, and ask His help on all matters in order to please Him.

Obviously, in our public worship, we have to have order in order to show our love for God together with other worshipers. For this we need help from a liturgy or some kind of form that puts us all on the same page. And it helps us to steer clear of errors, reinforcing in our minds what is proper in our worship and beliefs.

I'm not at all recommending here any particular order or form that needs to be used in our church worship. I'm just advocating for "keeping it real."


*Note to posters that “deny” has been changed to “claim,” at the request of the OP.

 

[RandyK]

I would add to this that I'm not here advocating for any particular form or liturgy for a church service. I'm just trying to "keep it real."

I think the biggest problem in what I'm calling "Formalism" or "Sacramentalism" is in how the particular set of worshipers, or church, views God Himself. If He is viewed as distant, in almost an agnostic sense, then our worship is from afar, and likely to be an almost empty kind of formalism, a mere "mystical" kind of ritual that draws upon its form for beauty, awe, contemplation, and perhaps even entertainment.

A purely mystical, almost-agnostic kind of worship is practiced by those who have not been living in close proximity to God, not keeping His Word, or practicing actively the Faith. Such a lifestyle is certain to remove God from the picture, making Him the object of worship so very far away, so transcendent that the worshiper is only left admiring Him or the thought of Him, or perhaps even the beauty of His creation.

I'm advocating instead for a close connection with God, through obedience, faith, and the emulation of His character, and in this way maintaining a sense of Him as a certainty and a Father figure who is intimately aware of all our needs and wants. This kind of worship needs less prompting, and less religious mandate to "attend church" or engage in some neglected ritual.

Liturgies then take on life and excitement, particularly as a congregation joins together in mutual admiration for their God and for their religion. Such majesty can attain heights far above that of a stadium celebrating a superbowl victory. ;)

 

[Christ_empowered]

I dunno

Christianity is based upon an ongoing relationship with Jesus Christ. Unlike more egalitarian relationships this is an extremely unequal relationship between a fallen frail creature and The Redeemer. So…

I can see people falling in love with doctrine and ancient traditions but missing out on an actual relationship with Jesus. I can also see that happening in any church ️. Get into a church subculture not so much actually in an actual relationship with Jesus Christ.

No real solution I can think of honestly.

 

[RandyK]

I would post my comments from someone favoring liturgies against informal worship from another forum....

Also, there are problems with the opposite of "too-liturgical" emphases in worship. It can be too irreverent, entertaining, and familiar, and lacking opportunity for participation.

I've experienced both extremes, but grew up with the half-dead liturgical-emphasis kind of worship. It drove me out into the world to experiment and look for greater meaning where there were more "free spirits." I began to adopt those who seemed to be lacking in "spiritual meaning" and yet unsatisfied in their lives--sometimes even from broken home experiences.

In the end I returned to my roots, but ended up in the other extreme, lacking cohesion and participation, a disorganized overly-impromtu kind of worship. I accept both kinds without their short-comings. But I'm also realistic--we're not perfect.

I cannot make a succinct point in this. It it's a life-experience more than a philosophy or form that "works." The mix in a congregation determines how "alive" the worship is, regardless of the form. If the people in the congregation lack faith and true devotion, or even fail to live by good Christian standards, the worship will be weak, regardless of the form.

I will add this, because it may help you understand me as I write this. I grew up in a church originating with "state churches." The RCC and Lutheran church denominations originated and grew up as State churches, as did the Orthodox church.

These churches tend to almost indiscriminately invite all citizenry to attend, with the result being a mix of both "hot" and "cold." The more separatistic kind of churches I came to attend later were allegedly consisting mostly of pure believing, and practicing, Christians. They did not assume that all citizens who attend are, by definition, believing and practicing Christians.

These more "separatistic churches" tend to be hostile to my sense of inclusiveness that comes from my upbringing in the "state church" types. They want more of a pedigree of faith, displayed in a "born again" experience (Methodist), "Spirit Baptized" experience (Pentecostal), or some kind of extreme legal practice indicating one is truly "obedient to the faith."

This really limits who is being invited. On the other hand, I believe that once all citizenry is made welcome to attend, those who live the opposite of Christian standards should be discouraged from attending, to avoid spiritual contamination. This is what causes, I believe, the "half-dead half-alive" experience I've had in my upbringing in the Lutheran church.

 

[Hidden In Him]

A purely mystical, almost-agnostic kind of worship is practiced by those who have not been living in close proximity to God, not keeping His Word, or practicing actively the Faith. Such a lifestyle is certain to remove God from the picture, making Him the object of worship so very far away, so transcendent that the worshiper is only left admiring Him or the thought of Him, or perhaps even the beauty of His creation.

Yes, and good thread!

I think it all stems from forms of Christianity where there is very little in the way of hearing from Him directly, and if the words we preach and teach and hear are not Spirit-breathed, there will be no true life in them. I have no great problems with liturgy, but put the life of God in the service somehow...

I was thinking about this whole subject just yesterday as a matter of fact. I had a choice between creating a study that was filled with nothing but scriptural refutation of a false doctrine, or including some passages from heavenly visions that proved it false as well. I chose to go with the latter. Why? Because we have all heard the passages a thousand times, and not everyone is deeply moved by a bunch of scriptural refutation for the 1000th time in forum history. What they might find refreshing, however, is the Spirit of God revealing in OUR time just how damaging the doctrine really is, and warning those who have ears to hear in the churches.

I think it's the same principle. Are we actually hearing from HIM, i.e. from the Spirit of God in what we say and do, or are we just going through the motions again (and again)?

 

[Johann!@#]

I dunno

Christianity is based upon an ongoing relationship with Jesus Christ. Unlike more egalitarian relationships this is an extremely unequal relationship between a fallen frail creature and The Redeemer. So…

I can see people falling in love with doctrine and ancient traditions but missing out on an actual relationship with Jesus. I can also see that happening in any church ️. Get into a church subculture not so much actually in an actual relationship with Jesus Christ.

No real solution I can think of honestly.

How about this?

1Co 2:1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, did not come with excellence of speech or of wisdom declaring to you the testimony of God.
1Co 2:2 For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified.
1Co 2:3 I was with you in weakness, in fear, and in much trembling.
1Co 2:4 And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,
1Co 2:5 that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.

Shalom.

J.

 

[RandyK]

Yes, and good thread!

I think it all stems from forms of Christianity where there is very little in the way of hearing from Him directly, and if the words we preach and teach and here are not Spirit-breathed, there will be no true life in them. I have no great problems with liturgy, but put the life of God in the service somehow...

I was thinking about this whole subject just yesterday as a matter of fact. I had a choice between creating a study that was filled with nothing but scriptural refutation of a false doctrine, or including some passages from heavenly visions that proved it false as well. I chose to go with the latter. Why? Because we have all heard the passages a thousand times, and not everyone is deeply moved by a bunch of scriptural refutation for the 1000th time in forum history. What they might find refreshing, however, is the Spirit of God revealing in OUR time just how damaging the doctrine really is, and warning those who have ears to hear in the churches.

I think it's the same principle. Are we actually hearing from HIM, i.e. from the Spirit of God in what we say and do, or are we just going through the motions again (and again)?

I'm on another forum, and I'm close to calling it quits, but haven't yet. The Christians there are weak, and many are from the "high churches" of the kind I described as "State Christianity." They love the rituals, the liturgies, and the "bliss" of spiritual atmosphere--whatever that is?

So I've tried to go it slowly, showing them I'm not hostile, and not against all liturgical forms of worship. But in our day, the High Churches have lapsed into serious deadness, much like ancient Phariseeism was. I don't question the Christianity of these folks--they just lack the intimacy you and I have with God. I'm concerned for them because God was concerned for me when I was half-dead in my faith experience.

But what made me nearly give up on them was, a frequent poster started a thread to discuss the new Pope, and expressed the wish that he continue with Francis' liberalism towards gay people. Of course, this spurred me on to reply negatively towards any kind of tolerance of gays--not necessarily to stop them from attending a church initially, but to stop the church from endorsing their lifestyle.

After 4 or 5 posts back and forth, with several Christians rejecting my position as "judgmental" or even "hostile," the moderator stepped in, deleted most of my posts, and then demanded that we not discuss "homosexuality" anymore! That irritated me because the moderator had no problem with the thread, which suggested Francis' approach towards LG+ people be followed.

These people (in that forum) are very mixed in their Christian faith, and fall under the category of "lukewarm" or even "apostate." But I can see how calling a Pope an "apostate" might cause problems! ;) Of course, I didn't do that. I just quoted Paul where he said that homosexuality was bad (Romans 1).

The man initiating the thread questioned Paul's authority on this matter, while accepting some of his Scriptural authority. He believed that only God can judge--not Paul.

Anyway, I told him that without a baseline fixed on Scriptural authority, we can't come to any agreement on such matters. But then I was told by the moderator that we can't even discuss homosexuality anymore.

This kind of fits into the warnings you were giving, about the creep of Gnosticism into the Church. It has indeed been happening!

 

[Hidden In Him]

They love the rituals, the liturgies, and the "bliss" of spiritual atmosphere--whatever that is?

LoL. We have one here who speaks of this. I have sometimes admired the austerity of standing in a beautiful, artistically-built cathedral, but there needs to be more to Christianity than just an atmosphere, because once you walk out the door you can't take it with you. At Pentecost they brought it out into the streets, and I think that is ultimately the true model (though easier said than done, of course).

But what made me nearly give up on them was, a frequent poster started a thread to discuss the new Pope, and expressed the wish that he continue with Francis' liberalism towards gay people. Of course, this spurred me on to reply negatively towards any kind of tolerance of gays--not necessarily to stop them from attending a church initially, but to stop the church from endorsing their lifestyle.

And that is going to take whatever hope of the Spirit of God continuing to preside over things right out of the picture. I'm not into bashing either, and yet the truth has to be spoken. It is depicted in Revelations that the "mother church" will eventually become a home for every "foul bird," and that's a veiled symbolic reference to demonic spirits. The inclusion of behaviors like that is what invites unclean spirits, not the Holy Spirit, and the result will be that God eventually has to give them over to it.

I think I was recalling a vision just recently that kinda suggested the same thing... trying to remember now.

Anyway, starting up in earnest with responding more to studies tomorrow, since I have managed to get two studies ahead somehow, and maybe I can actually get involved in them for a change. Gonna go back through and see what all I missed, and maybe you will have more to respond to.

Also, if you should have any threads like this you'd like responses to, feel free to tag me. I need to get more involved again in general.

Blessings,
- H

 

[jasonc]

I will bite.

one reads the Bible daily ,at some point you will repeat that over and over . maybe it's my days of doing kata over and over .but no matter how much I did pinan nidan et all there was something to work on .at times it was mundane then once I was shown why this was that way it was all new .

I see a problem with concert type worship in churches where it's emotional driven . I think that is an extreme at times . there is the danger of the other but honestly I have experienced low and high church .I prefer the high church .

few get the why stain glasses windows exist or such grandeur where one is small and sees biblical illustrations of why it appears you must look up go find clouds and see how tiny you are looking at a image of Jesus on the throne before the glass sea.

honestly the best church I had was not in America .the danger of death ,well that changes things

 

[RandyK]

LoL. We have one here who speaks of this. I have sometimes admired the austerity of standing in a beautiful, artistically-built cathedral, but there needs to be more to Christianity than just an atmosphere, because once you walk out the door you can't take it with you. At Pentecost they brought it out into the streets, and I think that is ultimately the true model (though easier said than done, of course).


And that is going to take whatever hope of the Spirit of God continuing to preside over things right out of the picture. I'm not into bashing either, and yet the truth has to be spoken. It is depicted in Revelations that the "mother church" will eventually become a home for every "foul bird," and that's a veiled symbolic reference to demonic spirits. The inclusion of behaviors like that is what invites unclean spirits, not the Holy Spirit, and the result will be that God eventually has to give them over to it.

I think I was recalling a vision just recently that kinda suggested the same thing... trying to remember now.

Anyway, starting up in earnest with responding more to studies tomorrow, since I have managed to get two studies ahead somehow, and maybe I can actually get involved in them for a change. Gonna go back through and see what all I missed, and maybe you will have more to respond to.

Also, if you should have any threads like this you'd like responses to, feel free to tag me. I need to get more involved again in general.

Blessings,
- H

I've seen your "Gnostic invasion into the Church" thing. Let me just recount for you, though you don't know all the circumstances, and may not even agree. I've been on lots of newsgroups/forums--all of them were at least partly "Christian." Most all of them in recent years have been Christian moderated.

One forum got taken over by perverts who filled the posts with dirty invitations. The people in charge could not remove the virus and the forum collapsed. I was attacked by a moderator on the forum for telling someone who was anti-Israel that it made them sound Anti-Semitic. I was chastised and warned for that.

On another forum I discussed how I thought Hell would be a punishment, and yet not a literal burning of people alive for all eternity in a literal fire. I was shut down for a moderator for posting favorably on "Annihilationism." I certainly wasn't, but I had my post put into a controversial category.

Another forum I discussed the Trinity. A moderator told us we could not discuss the Trinity.

Another forum was moderated by a "Christian" who ultimately admitted transitioning from a male to a female. I indicated I thought that was wrong, and I was temporarily banned. I quit.

Another forum recently told me I could not speak against homosexuality as someone mentioned his interest in the Pope supporting Gays. The pro-Gay position was left intact, but my posts against the Gay position was removed. That was very recent.

Need I continue? On these Christian forums I see a lot of hate for Trump and for Conservatism, as well as outright hostility towards any sense of a "Christian State." And I see a lot of love for the form of religion, as opposed to its substance--a love for religious rites and less interest in prayer, worship, and obedience to God's word.

But this is where we are. The masses tend to go downhill over time with peer pressure, as society descends into darkness. People want to be liked, and refuse to "judge" others. ;) What they really want is to live independent of God's Spirit, making their own choices, just like Adam and Eve did.

But we're here to witness until the end. Let's get crackin.'

 

[Johann!@#]

I've seen your "Gnostic invasion into the Church" thing. Let me just recount for you, though you don't know all the circumstances, and may not even agree. I've been on lots of newsgroups/forums--all of them were at least partly "Christian." Most all of them in recent years have been Christian moderated.

One forum got taken over by perverts who filled the posts with dirty invitations. The people in charge could not remove the virus and the forum collapsed. I was attacked by a moderator on the forum for telling someone who was anti-Israel that it made them sound Anti-Semitic. I was chastised and warned for that.

On another forum I discussed how I thought Hell would be a punishment, and yet not a literal burning of people alive for all eternity in a literal fire. I was shut down for a moderator for posting favorably on "Annihilationism." I certainly wasn't, but I had my post put into a controversial category.

Another forum I discussed the Trinity. A moderator told us we could not discuss the Trinity.

Another forum was moderated by a "Christian" who ultimately admitted transitioning from a male to a female. I indicated I thought that was wrong, and I was temporarily banned. I quit.

Another forum recently told me I could not speak against homosexuality as someone mentioned his interest in the Pope supporting Gays. The pro-Gay position was left intact, but my posts against the Gay position was removed. That was very recent.

Need I continue? On these Christian forums I see a lot of hate for Trump and for Conservatism, as well as outright hostility towards any sense of a "Christian State." And I see a lot of love for the form of religion, as opposed to its substance--a love for religious rites and less interest in prayer, worship, and obedience to God's word.

But this is where we are. The masses tend to go downhill over time with peer pressure, as society descends into darkness. People want to be liked, and refuse to "judge" others. ;) What they really want is to live independent of God's Spirit, making their own choices, just like Adam and Eve did.

But we're here to witness until the end. Let's get crackin.'

Definitely worth reading, especially the part about wanting to be liked and avoiding judgment. I’ve noticed a trend here, but I hesitate to speak up because I know I’d get banned. It’s the “goosebump” ecclesia mentality- "just me, my Bible, and directly hearing from the Holy Spirit"-
and if you don’t experience it that way, you’re seen as not part of the “brotherhood.”

Yup, let's get "crackin'"

J.

 

[RandyK]

Definitely worth reading, especially the part about wanting to be liked and avoiding judgment. I’ve noticed a trend here, but I hesitate to speak up because I know I’d get banned. It’s the “goosebump” ecclesia mentality- "just me, my Bible, and directly hearing from the Holy Spirit"-
and if you don’t experience it that way, you’re seen as not part of the “brotherhood.”

Yup, let's get "crackin'"

J.

A minute ago I was deleted and reprimanded on my other forum because I informed someone that we could not continue discussing homosexuality because the disccusion had been banned by an administrator. I understand that--if I was a moderator I wouldn't want my decisions to be openly discussed either.

However, this is a hill I'm willing to die on. I'm done with that forum. If they allow people to speak favorably of homosexuality, and don't allow me to speak negatively against it, that forum has become hostile to the very religion it pretends to represent.

If all the forum wants are religious "pleasantries," then they should go join a local fraternal organization or jump on the Woke cause bandwagon--not pretend to be a Christian "forum." You think?

 

[Johann!@#]

A minute ago I was deleted and reprimanded on my other forum because I informed someone that we could not continue discussing homosexuality because the disccusion had been banned by an administrator. I understand that--if I was a moderator I wouldn't want my decisions to be openly discussed either.

However, this is a hill I'm willing to die on. I'm done with that forum. If they allow people to speak favorably of homosexuality, and don't allow me to speak negatively against it, that forum has become hostile to the very religion it pretends to represent.

If all the forum wants are religious "pleasantries," then they should go join a local fraternal organization or jump on the Woke cause bandwagon--not pretend to be a Christian "forum." You think?

I completely agree with your points, brother. I've read plenty of negative reviews about joining online forums, and I've been banned from most U.S. forums myself. I’ve already received warnings here too--it almost feels like you can’t question anyone without risking backlash. What do you think? Is this truly a Christian online forum?

Some people here seem to get "tired" of hearing others correct their brothers and sisters, as if correction itself is the problem. It happened just a few hours ago, and the go-to reaction-not response-is always, "Thou shalt not judge or accuse me."

I really do appreciate you reaching out and wanting to hear my thoughts. For now, though, I’m just going to tread lightly. I know there are charismatics and Pentecostals here, and to be honest, I do see some flaws.

So, what’s your take? I totally agree about the religious pleasantries and the whole WOKE culture--it’s diabolic.

Is this a place where we can genuinely have a "heart to heart" and share meaningful fellowship? Or is it just a lot of glossolalia and surface-level chatter?

Shalom.

J.

 

[jasonc]

I completely agree with your points, brother. I've read plenty of negative reviews about joining online forums, and I've been banned from most U.S. forums myself. I’ve already received warnings here too--it almost feels like you can’t question anyone without risking backlash. What do you think? Is this truly a Christian online forum?

Some people here seem to get "tired" of hearing others correct their brothers and sisters, as if correction itself is the problem. It happened just a few hours ago, and the go-to reaction-not response-is always, "Thou shalt not judge or accuse me."

I really do appreciate you reaching out and wanting to hear my thoughts. For now, though, I’m just going to tread lightly. I know there are charismatics and Pentecostals here, and to be honest, I do see some flaws.

So, what’s your take? I totally agree about the religious pleasantries and the whole WOKE culture--it’s diabolic.

Is this a place where we can genuinely have a "heart to heart" and share meaningful fellowship? Or is it just a lot of glossolalia and surface-level chatter?

Shalom.

J.

my pastor and elder a few weeks ago noticed that I didn't take communion and asked why ,and if it was something they could pray about .

rare in churches these days . I have seen my elders deny such to visitors who they were told were in sin as they cohabitated and openly admitted it .

correction ,no one likes it ,but the fact is it may save your soul!

 

[Johann!@#]

my pastor and elder a few weeks ago noticed that I didn't take communion and asked why ,and if it was something they could pray about .

rare in churches these days . I have seen my elders deny such to visitors who they were told were in sin as they cohabitated and openly admitted it .

correction ,no one likes it ,but the fact is it may save your soul!

Which reminds me of this--since there is correction in the body of Messiah of which we are members as opposed to excommunicate the practicing homosexuals etc.


Pretenders in the Church
The Bible warns us about those who appear godly but lack genuine faith. In 2 Timothy 3:5, Paul describes such people as “holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power” (Greek verb: ἔχοντες - having, ἠρνημένοι - having denied). He instructs believers to “avoid such men as these” (Greek verb: ἀποτρέπου - turn away).

Jesus Himself warned about false prophets in Matthew 7:15, saying, “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves” (Greek verbs: Προσέχετε - watch out for, ἔρχονται - come, εἰσίν - are). The implication here is that we must be discerning and not merely accept appearances at face value.

Similarly, in Titus 1:16, Paul speaks of those who “profess to know God, but by their deeds they deny Him” (Greek verbs: ὁμολογοῦσιν - profess, ἀρνοῦνται - deny). This indicates that genuine faith is revealed through consistent, godly actions rather than empty claims.

Reactions to Correction--
One of the common reactions when confronted with truth or correction is to label it as judgment. In Galatians 4:16, Paul asks, “So have I become your enemy by telling you the truth?” (Greek verbs: γεγόνα - have I become, ἀληθεύων - telling the truth).

Sometimes, speaking biblical truth, even in love, makes others uncomfortable.

Even within the church, some resist correction and prefer superficial peace over confronting sin.

Peter 2:1 warns that “there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies” (Greek verbs: ἔσονται - will be, παρεισάξουσιν - will secretly introduce). Their resistance to correction is often masked by appealing to unity while compromising truth.

These kinds of people are everywhere--I can discern them simply by testing (δοκιμάζω) their words and actions.

The Bible clearly instructs us to “test the spirits” (δοκιμάζετε τὰ πνεύματα) in 1 John 4:1, where John warns us: “Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God” (Greek verbs: πιστεύετε - believe, δοκιμάζετε - test). Discernment is essential because many false prophets (ψευδοπροφῆται) have gone out into the world.

Paul echoes this in 1 Thessalonians 5:21, commanding believers to “examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good” (Greek verbs: δοκιμάζετε - examine, κατέχετε - hold fast).

In doing so, we guard against deception and false teachings.

Jesus also emphasized discernment in Matthew 7:20, saying, “You will know them by their fruits” (Greek verb: ἐπιγνώσεσθε - you will know).

The evidence of true faith is seen in consistent, godly behavior, not just in words or superficial appearances.

So yes, I can discern (διακρίνω) these pretenders because Scripture instructs us to test and examine their claims against the truth.

Thanks for avoiding my direct question brother--is this a "Christian" online forum?

J.

my pastor and elder a few weeks ago noticed that I didn't take communion and asked why ,and if it was something they could pray about .

rare in churches these days . I have seen my elders deny such to visitors who they were told were in sin as they cohabitated and openly admitted it .

correction ,no one likes it ,but the fact is it may save your soul!

 

[jasonc]

it claims to be ,I'm not staff .

 

[Johann!@#]

it claims to be ,I'm not staff .

You think?

J.

 

[jasonc]

You think?

J.

I was a moderator here about a decade ago .some of the changes since about 2016 ,meh . politics got ugly ,they banned that brought it back .IMHO got a bit soft in some things .problem with online is unlike a church where the elders can confront and observe people saying things and rebuke and remove it's harder to do that .

 

[RandyK]

I completely agree with your points, brother. I've read plenty of negative reviews about joining online forums, and I've been banned from most U.S. forums myself. I’ve already received warnings here too--it almost feels like you can’t question anyone without risking backlash. What do you think? Is this truly a Christian online forum?

Some people here seem to get "tired" of hearing others correct their brothers and sisters, as if correction itself is the problem. It happened just a few hours ago, and the go-to reaction-not response-is always, "Thou shalt not judge or accuse me."

I really do appreciate you reaching out and wanting to hear my thoughts. For now, though, I’m just going to tread lightly. I know there are charismatics and Pentecostals here, and to be honest, I do see some flaws.

So, what’s your take? I totally agree about the religious pleasantries and the whole WOKE culture--it’s diabolic.

Is this a place where we can genuinely have a "heart to heart" and share meaningful fellowship? Or is it just a lot of glossolalia and surface-level chatter?

Shalom.

J.

To be perfectly honest, I've been in Pentecostal/Charismatic churches for many years, but only in the last few years agreed to become a member of my own AoG church. That was because some Board members had conspired to terminate our then-current pastor, who I really liked. I couldn't vote in favor of this pastor while I was not a member. And so I joined in order to vote for this brother.

Nevertheless, the entire church was enabled to vote, member or not, and the majority voted to oust both the pastor and the Board! We went back into "pioneer church" status, and had appointed for us a temporary pastor to moderate on behalf of the denomination.

This was some time ago. And we've had probably 3 attempts now at conspiracies within the church leadership to have a pastor removed, involving 3 different pastors! My wife and I are the only remaining original members of the church. The founding pastor died at a ripe old age. But he did not support all of this anarchy and rebellion.

So I've not wanted to be a card-carrying member of the AoG, not just because of the chaos of dealing with "majority votes," rivalries, etc., but also because I don't agree with all of the doctrinal positions held by the AoG. I wrote the national headquarters, but they apparentlly leave such matters to the local leadership. I talked with the local superintendant, and he agreed that 100% agreement is not necessary for him.

But my pastors were quite willing to come down to my house and visit with me. But there was little willingness to discuss or debate any of the theological positions that concerned me. I continue to go because quite frankly we're encouraged to continue meeting, for purposes of edification and strengthening. I also don't feel we need to have 100% agreement.

But lately, there has been some open mocking of beliefs I hold to by those who know I hold to them. I'm a Postribulationist--an issue I've never made a matter of open contention--neither do I hide my position. But there is a fine line between disagreement and being mocked at in church. This is the equivalent of a moderator saying he can state his views, but you can't.

I have other views that seem to be "mocked," which is perhaps a bit more understandable, because they are controversial. I don't believe a 10% tithe is legally required in the Scriptures. I believe there should be more than a single pastor with all-encompassing authority. And I don't believe Tongues is a "Prayer Language" available to all Christians. How Pentecostal am I? It depends on who you talk to.

I recognize I'm not always right. I have ideas about what the Lord is telling us, and I have opinions as to why we're not having much success in evangelism or ministry right now. I'm willing to be patient until the Lord makes things more clear.

When I started out in forums more than 20 years ago, on Usenet, I delibately avoided moderated forums and chose instead to debate, "Hell or High Water." I was willing to listen to those who disagreed, even in an insulting manner. This was preferable to arbitrary censorship by a moderator with "hurt feelings." Power is addicting, you think?

Anyway, I think you can read my feelings on this. I've been warned on every forum except for this one. There's usually some fine people on every forum--I just quit when there is no longer much opportunity for stating the unvarnished truth. And when the moderators/admin begins to tolerate false doctrine and ban good doctrine, I'm done.

But on this forum I haven't had so much difficulty. It seems to me that sensitivies have not translated into rigitidy and temperamental moderation. I've found a few true friends here, even without a "doctrinal compact." ;)

Take care, brother. I don't want to lose you because you slip up and say something a little "off beat!" ;) I don't have the money to buy you out of purgatory, nor do I have those kinds of connections.

 

[Johann!@#]

I was a moderator here about a decade ago .some of the changes since about 2016 ,meh . politics got ugly ,they banned that brought it back .IMHO got a bit soft in some things .problem with online is unlike a church where the elders can confront and observe people saying things and rebuke and remove it's harder to do that .

I hate politics, to be so frank, it seems to permeate every discussion, and what they do behind close doors, even more disgusting-correct?

I was in a outreach ministry, a ministry foreign to most, diametrical opposed to the over 45, 000 denominations, and climbing-I think?

Correction must be welcomed, not shunned, but it must be done in the RIGHT manner-- and we are not "lone rangers"

Luke 17:3
“Be on your guard! If your brother sins, rebuke him (ἐπιτίμησον); and if he repents, forgive him.”

ἐπιτίμησον (epitímēson) - rebuke, an imperative verb instructing direct confrontation when a fellow believer sins.

This verse highlights the responsibility to correct (ἐπιτιμάω) a brother in love, especially when there is repentance.

2. 2 Timothy 4:2
“Preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove (ἔλεγξον), rebuke (ἐπιτίμησον), exhort (παρακάλεςον), with great patience and instruction.”

ἔλεγξον (elégxon) - reprove, meaning to expose or bring to light.

ἐπιτίμησον (epitímēson) - rebuke, emphasizing a firm correction.

παρακάλεςον (parakáleson) - exhort, encouraging someone to follow the right path.

Paul instructs Timothy to balance correction (ἔλεγξον, ἐπιτίμησον) with encouragement (παρακάλεςον), showing that rebuke must be done with patience and instruction.

3. Titus 1:13
“This testimony is true. For this reason reprove them (ἔλεγχε) severely so that they may be sound in the faith.”

ἔλεγχε (elégche) - reprove, indicating a strong correction to restore sound faith.

The context shows the importance of correcting those spreading false teachings to preserve doctrinal integrity.

4. Matthew 18:15
“If your brother sins, go and show him his fault (ἔλεγξον) in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother.”

ἔλεγξον (elégxon) - show him his fault, meaning to expose or confront the sin directly.

This process emphasizes a private, loving confrontation before involving others.

5. Galatians 6:1
“Brethren, even if anyone is caught in any trespass, you who are spiritual, restore (καταρτίζετε) such a one in a spirit of gentleness.”

καταρτίζετε (katartízete) - restore, indicating a goal of bringing the erring brother back to spiritual health.

This verse highlights that rebuke (ἔλεγξον) is not merely for condemnation but for restoration and healing.

6. James 5:19–20
“My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back (ἐπιστρέψῃ), let him know that he who turns (ἐπιστρέψας) a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.”

ἐπιστρέψῃ (epistrépsei) - turn back, actively guiding the erring one to the truth.

ἐπιστρέψας (epistrépsas) - having turned back, showing that the act of rebuking and restoring can lead to salvation from spiritual death.


Rebuking an erring believer is not merely about calling out sin but about correcting (ἐπιτίμησον), reproving (ἔλεγξον), and restoring (καταρτίζετε) in a spirit of gentleness. The goal is always to bring back (ἐπιστρέψῃ) the one who has strayed, preserving their spiritual well-being and the integrity of the faith community.

Correct? jasonc?

J.