[__ Prayer __] Too Formal or not?

[Johann!@#]

What makes you think I have an issue with you?

You don't?

J.

 

[Free]

You don't?

J.

Of course not. Why would I?

 

[Johann!@#]

Of course not. Why would I?

All good then?

J.

 

[Free]

Yes, of course.

 

[RandyK]

Neglect some of the finer points of doctrine-please clarify.

Could you explain that a bit more? I’m not really into analogies.

Of course I do. Is there something in my discussion with the brother that you feel isn’t edifying?

And I fully concur--

Heb 6:1 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,
Heb 6:2 of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
Heb 6:3 And this we will do if God permits.
Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
Heb 6:6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
Heb 6:7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God;
Heb 6:8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.
Heb 6:9 But, beloved, we are confident of better things concerning you, yes, things that accompany salvation, though we speak in this manner.
Heb 6:10 For God is not unjust to forget your work and labor of love which you have shown toward His name, in that you have ministered to the saints, and do minister.
Heb 6:11 And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence to the full assurance of hope until the end,
Heb 6:12 that you do not become sluggish, but imitate those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.
The Certainty of God's Promise
Heb 6:13 For when God made a promise to Abraham, because He could swear by no one greater, He swore by Himself,
Heb 6:14 saying, "SURELY BLESSING I WILL BLESS YOU, AND MULTIPLYING I WILL MULTIPLY YOU."
Heb 6:15 And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.
Heb 6:16 For men indeed swear by the greater, and an oath for confirmation is for them an end of all dispute.
Heb 6:17 Thus God, determining to show more abundantly to the heirs of promise the immutability of His counsel, confirmed it by an oath,
Heb 6:18 that by two immutable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we might have strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold of the hope set before us.
Heb 6:19 This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast, and which enters the Presence behind the veil,
Heb 6:20 where the forerunner has entered for us, even Jesus, having become High Priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.

We are under tremendous persecution here brother, in South Africa, and would appreciate how you want me to interact with the brother without "checking the boxes"

I would welcome your input and directives.

Shoot straight with me brother, I can handle it.

J.

Oh, I see what it was--been busy today, and I forgot what I was thinking. You said this:

While we may have differences in theology, the essential truth of Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection should unite us as believers. Dividing over non-essential theological points weakens our testimony, while standing firm on the core gospel message brings glory to Christ.

I agree with you that our testimony is "weakened" if we argue over non-essential things to the point where we stop acting like Christians. And I'm suggesting that rather than dismiss these "non-essential things," we retain them in discussions with those who are able to discuss them in a more "Christian" way.

It's not a disagreement with you. I'm just suggesting that there are people you can discuss the non-essentials with, and people you just can't. Some things, however, have to be mentioned, ie the essentials, because they are what make us Christians.

 

[RandyK]

Neglect some of the finer points of doctrine-please clarify.

To elaborate further, I'm saying that we should make an effort to deal with both the essentials and the not-as-essentials. And that's because even the smallest, least-essential truths in Scripture have value, being that God put them in His book.

I made the analogy that some vitamins are more essential than others. For example, you have potassium, phosphorus, and nitrogen. These make plants grow well. But there are trace elements that can aid in plant growth and health, as well. Micro-nutrients are also necessary even though they don't show up as one of the "Big Three" on fertilizer bags.

This is equally true of people. We need certain vitamins in our diet. But beyond the basic categories there are many minerals that we need for good health. There are macronutrients such as fat, protein, and carbohydrates. And there are micronutrients, including minerals and vitamins.

This I'm using as an analogy as applied to our spiritual diet. We feed off of God's word, which operates through knowledge working through the Spirit. Our basic needs involve the revelation of Christ, who he is and what he is for us in terms of righteousness.

But beyond this there is the entire history of Israel giving us a model by which to extend our knowledge from Israel to the nations. And we have many examples of how God has dealt with individuals, both OT and NT.

All these things contribute to our knowledge of how God operates in our lives. There are a few basic things to know, including our regeneration, resurrection, and spiritual development. But along the way there are many things to know to help us endure in a difficult environment. The most important things being present do not make the lesser things unnecessary or undesirable.

I'm not saying you're saying any different. You were talking about how it weakens our testimony as Christians when we fight over every little thing. And this is true.

I'm just saying this doesn't make it undesirable to tackle the little things, whether sanctification, prophecy, or the afterlife, as long as we do so with those who can manage doing it in the right spirit.

Could you explain that a bit more? I’m not really into analogies.

See above. A long time ago I may have prevailed upon Walter Martin, in a letter, to get him to do a tape on Postribulationism. Being that it was controversial, and not the main focus of his ministry, Martin begrudgingly did it, stating that it was purely a "peripheral teaching."

Nevertheless, I think it is useful to teach things that God put into His word, even if it is indeed "peripheral." It helps to deal with "tribulation" in this life, as opposed to hoping to escape it.

This is an example that may explain to you where I'm coming from?

 

[Johann!@#]

To elaborate further, I'm saying that we should make an effort to deal with both the essentials and the not-as-essentials. And that's because even the smallest, least-essential truths in Scripture have value, being that God put them in His book.

I made the analogy that some vitamins are more essential than others. For example, you have potassium, phosphorus, and nitrogen. These make plants grow well. But there are trace elements that can aid in plant growth and health, as well. Micro-nutrients are also necessary even though they don't show up as one of the "Big Three" on fertilizer bags.

This is equally true of people. We need certain vitamins in our diet. But beyond the basic categories there are many minerals that we need for good health. There are macronutrients such as fat, protein, and carbohydrates. And there are micronutrients, including minerals and vitamins.

This I'm using as an analogy as applied to our spiritual diet. We feed off of God's word, which operates through knowledge working through the Spirit. Our basic needs involve the revelation of Christ, who he is and what he is for us in terms of righteousness.

But beyond this there is the entire history of Israel giving us a model by which to extend our knowledge from Israel to the nations. And we have many examples of how God has dealt with individuals, both OT and NT.

All these things contribute to our knowledge of how God operates in our lives. There are a few basic things to know, including our regeneration, resurrection, and spiritual development. But along the way there are many things to know to help us endure in a difficult environment. The most important things being present do not make the lesser things unnecessary or undesirable.

I'm not saying you're saying any different. You were talking about how it weakens our testimony as Christians when we fight over every little thing. And this is true.

I'm just saying this doesn't make it undesirable to tackle the little things, whether sanctification, prophecy, or the afterlife, as long as we do so with those who can manage doing it in the right spirit.

See above. A long time ago I may have prevailed upon Walter Martin, in a letter, to get him to do a tape on Postribulationism. Being that it was controversial, and not the main focus of his ministry, Martin begrudgingly did it, stating that it was purely a "peripheral teaching."

Nevertheless, I think it is useful to teach things that God put into His word, even if it is indeed "peripheral." It helps to deal with "tribulation" in this life, as opposed to hoping to escape it.

This is an example that may explain to you where I'm coming from?

Want you to really listen to this--I am not Reformed, but I need you to listen.

J.

 

[Johann!@#]

Oh, I see what it was--been busy today, and I forgot what I was thinking. You said this:

While we may have differences in theology, the essential truth of Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection should unite us as believers. Dividing over non-essential theological points weakens our testimony, while standing firm on the core gospel message brings glory to Christ.

I agree with you that our testimony is "weakened" if we argue over non-essential things to the point where we stop acting like Christians. And I'm suggesting that rather than dismiss these "non-essential things," we retain them in discussions with those who are able to discuss them in a more "Christian" way.

It's not a disagreement with you. I'm just suggesting that there are people you can discuss the non-essentials with, and people you just can't. Some things, however, have to be mentioned, ie the essentials, because they are what make us Christians.

Hey RandyK -- I get where you’re coming from...it feels like we’re talking past each other. I think the confusion here is between what’s essential to being a Christian versus what’s not.

So, let me break it down in a way that makes sense. See if you agree.

Essentials - The Core of Being a Christian
There are some beliefs that you can’t really call yourself a Christian without holding to...they’re foundational. For example--

Who Jesus Is:

Jesus is God...not just a good teacher or prophet. The Bible makes it clear:

John 1:1 - “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”

Colossians 2:9 - “For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form.”

How We’re Saved--

We’re saved by God’s grace through faith in Jesus...not by anything we do. It’s not about being good enough.

Ephesians 2:8-9 - “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.”

Jesus’ Death and Resurrection:

If Jesus didn’t rise from the dead, our faith is pointless. That’s why this is non-negotiable.

1 Corinthians 15:3-4 - “Christ died for our sins...was buried...and was raised on the third day.”

The Gospel Message Itself--

Simply put, it’s about confessing Jesus as Lord and believing God raised Him from the dead.

Romans 10:9 - “If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.”

The Trinity--

One God in three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Matthew 28:19 - “...baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.”

These are the big ones...the things that make Christianity what it is.

Non-Essentials - Things We Can Disagree On
Then there are the “non-essentials”...things that Christians might see differently, but they don’t change whether you’re a true believer or not:

Baptism Methods

Some churches dunk you underwater...others sprinkle. Honestly, Scripture doesn’t demand one way over the other. It’s the heart behind it that counts.

Romans 6:4 talks about the symbolism of being buried with Christ and raised to a new life, but it doesn’t say how much water you need.

Diet and Special Days--

Some Christians don’t eat certain foods or observe special days, but Paul makes it clear that’s a personal conviction.

Romans 14:3 - “The one who eats is not to regard with contempt the one who does not eat...”

How Jesus Will Return--

We all agree Jesus is coming back, but some folks see the timeline differently...like pre-millennial, post-millennial, or amillennial. The important thing is believing He will return.

Matthew 24:44 - “...for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He will.”

Spiritual Gifts--I put this under the "non essentials"

Some think tongues and prophecy are for today...others don’t. Either way, these aren’t what make you a Christian.

1 Corinthians 12:4-6 - “There are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit...”

Life in the Spirit
Once you believe the essentials, God’s Spirit lives in you. That’s how you know you’re His.

Romans 8:9 - “If anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.”

Basically, once you’re in Christ, it’s not about getting hung up on the smaller stuff. We’re called to move beyond the basics and grow in maturity...learning to live out our faith day by day. "Pentecostal style?"

Does that make more sense?

I’ve read this phrase over and over--"the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life"--and I’d like to get your take on it. It’s from 2 Corinthians 3:6, where Paul says:

"Who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life." (NASB)

From what I understand, Paul is contrasting the old covenant (the Law of Moses) with the new covenant brought by Christ. The "letter"--meaning the written Law--brings death because it exposes sin and condemns us since no one can perfectly keep it. The Law shows us how far short we fall, but it doesn’t have the power to save.

Romans 7:10 - "And this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me."

Galatians 3:21 - "For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law."

On the other hand, the "Spirit"--meaning the new covenant through Jesus--brings life because the Holy Spirit regenerates us and empowers us to live righteously. The Spirit doesn’t just point out our sin but transforms us from within.

Romans 8:2 - "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death."

John 6:63 - "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life."

To me, being a Christian means being born again by the Spirit through faith in Jesus. It’s not just about following a set of religious rules or trying to keep the Law. The difference is that the Law condemns, but the Spirit gives life and transforms us.

John 3:5 - "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

Romans 8:9 - "However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you."

Am I on the right track with this? Let me know if you see it differently or if I’m missing something.

So again, using the sword, give me examples what you see as "essential" or "non essential"

J.

 

[Johann!@#]

See above. A long time ago I may have prevailed upon Walter Martin, in a letter, to get him to do a tape on Postribulationism. Being that it was controversial, and not the main focus of his ministry, Martin begrudgingly did it, stating that it was purely a "peripheral teaching."

So we should rather concentrate on eschatology--even with the many different views?

Nevertheless, I think it is useful to teach things that God put into His word, even if it is indeed "peripheral." It helps to deal with "tribulation" in this life, as opposed to hoping to escape it.

This is an example that may explain to you where I'm coming from?

How do you think what helps with tribulation?
And forgive me, I don't know from what "angle" you are coming from. I prefer biblical terminologies and not confusion.

J.

 

[RandyK]

Want you to really listen to this--I am not Reformed, but I need you to listen.

J.

I don't listen to anything and everything others post to me. It is a courtesy to explain what the video is, how long it is, and what the point you're making is. It could cost me a long time and take me on a wild goose chase. I'm not saying this is what you're doing, but I do listen to lots of videos sent my way--even long ones. I just don't do it if no time is spent explaining what it is and what the point is. But thanks for trying...

On the matter of Reform beliefs, I don't have a problem with any of the major reform movements, even if I don't agree with every point. I'm interested in every Christian movement, from Catholic and Orthodox to all of the Protestant and Revival movements. I've spent some time reading the history of Christianity, and enjoy learning more about it. There's a lot there!

 

[RandyK]

Hey RandyK -- I get where you’re coming from...it feels like we’re talking past each other. I think the confusion here is between what’s essential to being a Christian versus what’s not.

So, let me break it down in a way that makes sense. See if you agree.

Essentials - The Core of Being a Christian
There are some beliefs that you can’t really call yourself a Christian without holding to...they’re foundational. For example--

Who Jesus Is:
How We’re Saved--
Jesus’ Death and Resurrection:
The Gospel Message Itself--
The Trinity--
These are the big ones...the things that make Christianity what it is.

Non-Essentials - Things We Can Disagree On
Then there are the “non-essentials”...things that Christians might see differently, but they don’t change whether you’re a true believer or not:

Baptism Methods
Diet and Special Days--
How Jesus Will Return--
Spiritual Gifts--I put this under the "non essentials"
Life in the Spirit

Yes, I agree with a lot of that--pretty well summarized. The creeds cover the essentials.

On the Gifts of the Spirit I may disagree with some Pentecostals, though I'm a Charismatic/Pentecostal. I often hear from them that Christians should have access to all the gifts of the Spirit, and that all Christians should be able to exercise a "Prayer Language" (Tongues).

I don't find that to be true to the Word. Paul makes a point of stating that not all have the gift of Prophecy, and not all have the gift of Tongues. The Spirit, by contrast, gifts individuals according to how He wishes to gift them.

I’ve read this phrase over and over--"the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life"--and I’d like to get your take on it. It’s from 2 Corinthians 3:6, where Paul says:

"Who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life." (NASB)

The "Letter," I believe, refers to the Law of Moses, which was written down in the Penteteuch. That Law "killed" Israel because in the practice of this Covenant Israel enacted their guilt unto death.

They killed sacrificial animals, indicating they all deserved death. All of the superstructure of the Tabernacle worship had to be mitigated by blood, indicating that all who worship under this system are enjoying a temporary reprieve from immediate death under divine judgment.

So this "Letter" killed--at least symbolically. Ultimately, it confirmed that all who inherited the sentence of death from Adam would have to die, as well. So, how do we obtain "Life?"

Paul is here referring to Eternal Life, specifically, which comes as a reward for faith in Jesus Christ, just as Israel obtained temporal life when they obeyed the Law of Moses. That is, when Israel lived in obedience to their Covenant with God, God granted them a reprieve from judgments that lead to death. Their lives were blessed, and as such, extended to a "full life."

But believing in Jesus Christ, which involves obedience to his commandments, as well, also leads to life--but to a superior life, namely Eternal Life. Not only can our lives be extended in this life beyond immediate judgment, but we can have hope in a resurrection unto Eternal Life.

Contrasting this with the "Letter" Paul makes reference to the Spirit of Christ that enters not upon a document, but better, within us so that we can live by the Spirit of him who rose from the dead. We are saved not just from more immediate judgments in this life, but from eternal judgment, as well.

From what I understand, Paul is contrasting the old covenant (the Law of Moses) with the new covenant brought by Christ. The "letter"--meaning the written Law--brings death because it exposes sin and condemns us since no one can perfectly keep it. The Law shows us how far short we fall, but it doesn’t have the power to save.

Exactly.

On the other hand, the "Spirit"--meaning the new covenant through Jesus--brings life because the Holy Spirit regenerates us and empowers us to live righteously. The Spirit doesn’t just point out our sin but transforms us from within.

Absolutely.

To me, being a Christian means being born again by the Spirit through faith in Jesus. It’s not just about following a set of religious rules or trying to keep the Law. The difference is that the Law condemns, but the Spirit gives life and transforms us.

We are transformed, yes. Israel was also transformed, but not yet given a guarantee of immortality. They had not yet received Eternal Life--only the ability to be "transformed" by the word.

Deut 30.11 Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.

Am I on the right track with this? Let me know if you see it differently or if I’m missing something.

So again, using the sword, give me examples what you see as "essential" or "non essential"

J.

My response would be too long if I gave references here.

The "essentials" are in the creeds. I see them as belief in who Christ is, and in the need to be "transformed" by him, as you suggest. We not only are able to be changed within by adopting his word as our guide, but we can then obey Christ's commandments.

Some Reform-theology oriented Christians state the extreme, that we can do *nothing* in terms of obeying Christ's commandments. They are afraid of stating that we have anything to do with justifying ourselves.

But choosing to put our faith in Christ, and choosing to therefore obey his commandments is not Self-Justification. It is the choice to work together with God's word to do what the Creator made us to do, to live in His Spirit, to live by His word, and to obey His mandates, living in His image and likeness.

So I consider it essential that we live in righteousness by the power of the Holy Spirit, by our faith in Christ, and by our willingness to be transformed into true servants of Christ. We can argue the Millennium, the Tribulation, the Rapture, Baptism, the Eucharist, Sanctification, and a whole lot of different views on various passages of Scriptures.

All I'm saying is that we should continue to pursue growth in *all* areas, and not just in the essential ones. After all, Hebrews tells us we should, at some point, not continue to focus only on the essentials, but move on to spiritual growth and maturity (not leaving the foundational essentials behind, of course).

Thanks for a well-thought out post. I think we agree on most of it. And if we don't, we'll just keep on working on it. ;) It's not a competition. We all want to be on the Lord's side, and not on the side of any particular "school."

 

[RandyK]

So we should rather concentrate on eschatology--even with the many different views?

It depends on what God draws you to. God's Spirit may draw you towards a particular ministry and kind of ministry.

Speaking of my petitioning Martin to do a tape on Postrib, I understood his reluctance. His ministry was largely to the American cults.

But Martin was also diverse and became "The Bible Answerman." So he had to answer questions involving all cults, religions, and biblical questions. He felt obligated to answer a question on eschatology, even though it appeared to be outside of his main scope, and had the potential to separate some believers. His friend Chuck Smith was an ardent Pretribber and seemed to wish to "die on that hill."

But I have always felt drawn to studies in Eschatology. From childhood I was drawn to it. I have a long testimony about this, but I won't bore you. I became a Postribber from memorizing 2 Thessalonians.

Before that I had become a Pretribber, due to my friends being Pretribbers. I was raised in the Lutheran Church, which was Amillennial and Postribulation, but didn't emphasize the Tribulation at all. So nobody changed my views from Pretrib to Postrib--it was just memorizing what Paul said, and then choosing to believe him.

On controversial, divisive subjects I try to be non-dogmatic in my way of sharing my own personal beliefs. Sometimes I may be quite sure I'm right, but on some matters I'm clearly not sure. So I try to be fair and tolerant in these "non-essential" matters.

However, if these matters arise from the study of Scriptures we shouldn't avoid them. Some matters have taken me many, many years before God gave me any sense of certainty. Even then I want to give others the luxury of coming to their own "certainty" or conviction.

How do you think what helps with tribulation?

My Postrib beliefs stems from the sense that the book of Revelation was written to Christians who were being persecuted for their faith. The book helps Christians all down through the ages who also are being persecuted for their faith.

Emphasizing an escape by Rapture before the Reign of Antichrist seems to defeat this theme, although I'm sure Pretribbers can refute this in some measure. It's just my conviction. Thanks.

If you need Scriptural references I have more than 50 years of them. ;) So I'll have to do it one post at a time.

 

[Johann!@#]

It depends on what God draws you to. God's Spirit may draw you towards a particular ministry and kind of ministry.

Speaking of my petitioning Martin to do a tape on Postrib, I understood his reluctance. His ministry was largely to the American cults.

But Martin was also diverse and became "The Bible Answerman." So he had to answer questions involving all cults, religions, and biblical questions. He felt obligated to answer a question on eschatology, even though it appeared to be outside of his main scope, and had the potential to separate some believers. His friend Chuck Smith was an ardent Pretribber and seemed to wish to "die on that hill."

But I have always felt drawn to studies in Eschatology. From childhood I was drawn to it. I have a long testimony about this, but I won't bore you. I became a Postribber from memorizing 2 Thessalonians.

Before that I had become a Pretribber, due to my friends being Pretribbers. I was raised in the Lutheran Church, which was Amillennial and Postribulation, but didn't emphasize the Tribulation at all. So nobody changed my views from Pretrib to Postrib--it was just memorizing what Paul said, and then choosing to believe him.

On controversial, divisive subjects I try to be non-dogmatic in my way of sharing my own personal beliefs. Sometimes I may be quite sure I'm right, but on some matters I'm clearly not sure. So I try to be fair and tolerant in these "non-essential" matters.

However, if these matters arise from the study of Scriptures we shouldn't avoid them. Some matters have taken me many, many years before God gave me any sense of certainty. Even then I want to give others the luxury of coming to their own "certainty" or conviction.

My Postrib beliefs stems from the sense that the book of Revelation was written to Christians who were being persecuted for their faith. The book helps Christians all down through the ages who also are being persecuted for their faith.

Emphasizing an escape by Rapture before the Reign of Antichrist seems to defeat this theme, although I'm sure Pretribbers can refute this in some measure. It's just my conviction. Thanks.

If you need Scriptural references I have more than 50 years of them. ;) So I'll have to do it one post at a time.

I don’t want to derail your thread, brother. For me, it all comes down to putting God’s Word into daily practice, not just accumulating knowledge about the Scriptures. It’s about living it out every day.

I didn’t grow up in a traditional church setting, but in an outreach ministry similar to what David Wilkerson did, putting Matthew 25 into action. I can tell you, the presence of the Holy Spirit was overwhelming.

But enough about me.

God bless.

J.

 

[RandyK]

I don’t want to derail your thread, brother. For me, it all comes down to putting God’s Word into daily practice, not just accumulating knowledge about the Scriptures. It’s about living it out every day.

I didn’t grow up in a traditional church setting, but in an outreach ministry similar to what David Wilkerson did, putting Matthew 25 into action. I can tell you, the presence of the Holy Spirit was overwhelming.

But enough about me.

God bless.

J.

I don't know why you assume that my post was "all about knowledge alone?" If you dismiss "knowledge" entirely, I'm not sure what you'll have?

The knowledge I believe is crucial is *spiritual knowledge,* ie the knowledge of Christ and the knowledge of how his righteousness translates into our righteousness. That's real, substantial knowledge, and I can't see how that can be disparaged or refuted?

Don't worry about "derailing my thread." I've never complained about tangential arguments. Go for it!

As for David Wilkerson, there is a lot I could say. Let me just say I respect what he did with Teen Challenge, and I suspect his "Vision" was real. But on some matters I think he was guessing a bit, and I did write him about it.

Just a few personal notes. Many, many years ago my brother and I went forward at one of his meetings in the Seattle area. Many "hippie types" were giving up their drugs, and even throwing them up on stage. My brother and I had already "returned to the fold" previously, but wanted to step up with all those doing similarly.

I learned in recent years that my cousin lived in Lindale, Texas where Wilkerson lived at the time. She actually babysat for him--probably for his grandchildren--not sure?

My cousin spoke glowingly of the man, and to this day she is an exemplary Christian. And having been in the drug rehab business for a short time, I noted that Teen Challenge had probably the highest rate of success in keeping people off drugs once they quit.

 

[Johann!@#]

The knowledge I believe is crucial is *spiritual knowledge,* ie the knowledge of Christ and the knowledge of how his righteousness translates into our righteousness. That's real, substantial knowledge, and I can't see how that can be disparaged or refuted?

I said nothing that "ουσιώδης γνώσις" should be disparage or refuted. Miscommunication.

Philippians 3:8-9 (NASB)
More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ, and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith.

2 Peter 1:2-3 (NASB)
Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence.

2 Peter 3:18 (NASB)
But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

Romans 10:3-4 (NASB)
For not knowing about God’s righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

Ephesians 4:13 (NASB)
Until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.

2 Corinthians 5:21 (NASB)
He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Powerful verses in context, and the "put on" and "put off" re the old man.

I hope you and I read these verses with the same mind, the mind of Christ?

As for David Wilkerson, there is a lot I could say. Let me just say I respect what he did with Teen Challenge, and I suspect his "Vision" was real. But on some matters I think he was guessing a bit, and I did write him about it.

Right, there seems to be a misunderstanding here. It looks like you don’t quite grasp what an outreach ministry is. Just to clarify, I don’t hold to visions and dreams as authoritative since they must be tested against God’s Word (δοκιμάζω - dokimazō - "to test" or "to examine" - 1 Thessalonians 5:21).

I hope that clears things up.

I was affiliated with The Ark in Durban, long closed now

My cousin spoke glowingly of the man, and to this day she is an exemplary Christian. And having been in the drug rehab business for a short time, I noted that Teen Challenge had probably the highest rate of success in keeping people off drugs once they quit.

You’re getting close, but I can’t help but feel like we’re παραβάλλω (paraballō - "to throw beside" or "to compare"), almost like we’re parrying with each other, testing the waters--perhaps?

One question to you, if I may---do you hear "directly" from the Holy Spirit? Audible voice? Or do you "experience" your walk in the Spirit, like an "experiential walk?" Like 24/7?

And before you ask, I don't.

Nice "chatting" with you.

J.

 

[RandyK]

I said nothing that "ουσιώδης γνώσις" should be disparage or refuted. Miscommunication.

Okay.

Right, there seems to be a misunderstanding here. It looks like you don’t quite grasp what an outreach ministry is.

I don't "grasp" what an outreach ministry is? What makes you think I need your "special glasses" to grasp things?

Just to clarify, I don’t hold to visions and dreams as authoritative since they must be tested against God’s Word (δοκιμάζω - dokimazō - "to test" or "to examine" - 1 Thessalonians 5:21).

If you don't hold to visions and dreams, then you're going to have to reject Joseph's dreams and Daniel's dreams which are entirely biblical! The Prophets claimed to have received "visions" from the Lord. Peter quoted Joel, who predicted that in the last days people would have dreams and see visions. Peter applied this *to the Church.* Peter had a vision himself!

Paul said that prophecy had to be tested--not disposed of. Paul said that prophecy should not be discouraged, but rather, done in an organized, controlled way.

I hope that clears things up.

I was affiliated with The Ark in Durban, long closed now

Don't know anything about it. But my daughter has been associated with "Celebrate Recovery."

You’re getting close, but I can’t help but feel like we’re παραβάλλω (paraballō - "to throw beside" or "to compare"), almost like we’re parrying with each other, testing the waters--perhaps?

To be honest, hearing your posts worrying about how others feel about you I can't help but think you suffer from a paranoia problem? I don't mean to be insulting--I'm just very familiar with this Personality Disorder. It's something one has to fight, if he or she is beset with constant worrying about what others are saying about them.

One question to you, if I may---do you hear "directly" from the Holy Spirit? Audible voice? Or do you "experience" your walk in the Spirit, like an "experiential walk?" Like 24/7?

And before you ask, I don't.

I think very few people hear God's audible voice. And that's because it isn't necessary for God to speak audibly. He wouldn't do so, perhaps, because the minute we actually hear a voice we begin to doubt who is speaking (young Samuel). But God found it necessary on some of the matters that He felt should be supported with an audible sound.

I think of God as "watching us" most of the time. He's a kind of "Watcher." I'm always aware of His presence, and I know how He feels on all moral matters. I don't need Him to tell me it's wrong to covet somebody else's property. Most of us, including the "world," don't need God to speak audibly to know it's wrong to murder, rape, or steal.

Nice "chatting" with you.

J.

Thank you!

 

[Johann!@#]

I don't "grasp" what an outreach ministry is? What makes you think I need your "crystal ball" to grasp things?

Yup things are getting "sour"-yes, you don't have the foggiest idea what I'm getting at.

If you don't hold to visions and dreams, then you're going to have to reject Joseph's dreams and Daniel's dreams which are entirely biblical! The Prophets claimed to have received "visions" from the Lord. Peter quoted Joel, who predicted that in the last days people would have dreams and see visions. Peter applied to *to the Church.*

Paul said that prophecy had to be tested--not disposed of. Paul said that prophecy should not be discouraged, but rather, done in an organized, controlled way.

Are you my psychiatrist now, here to analyze my "symptoms"? There’s nothing wrong with my cognitive abilities or reasoning. Honestly, I don’t care what you think. How’s that for straight talk?
My wife was a highly qualified psychiatrist, well acquainted with personality disorders.

I’m not going to share what I’ve picked up from this short conversation.

I think very few people hear God's audible voice. And that's because it isn't necessary for God to speak audibly. He would do so because the minute we actually hear a voice we begin to doubt who is speaking (young Samuel). But God found it necessary on some of the matters that He felt should be supported with an audible sound.

I think of God as "watching us" most of the time. He's a kind of "Watcher." I'm always aware of His presence, and I know how He feels on all moral matters. I don't need Him to tell me it's wrong to covet somebody else's property. Most of us, including the "world," don't need God to speak audibly to know it's wrong to murder, rape, or steal.

Thanks for not answering my direct question. This might get me into trouble, but I’m old school. I prefer to have a conversation using biblical terminology and Scripture to avoid misunderstandings.

It feels like you just want to pontificate without really making a clear point. As Proverbs 18:2 (NASB) says, "A fool does not delight in understanding, but only in revealing his own mind."

That’s just my observation.

All good? Perhaps not. And frankly, I really don't care. Push the right buttons, and a reaction you will get, right?

If you think I’m here to play the victim, you’re dead wrong, friend.

Walk the talk, don't talk the walk.

J.