The Trinity

[Johann!@#]

If the “Trinity” doctrine aligns with scripture then it’s good.

I don’t use the word Trinity, but if someone is using in a discussion then that’s fine if they want to use that term.

Please understand there are variations of the doctrine of the Trinity, and there are variations of the Oneness doctrine, with overlapping areas of agreement.

When it comes down to it, people don’t understand the Godhead the way the Holy Spirit understands the doctrine of the Godhead; what is called the Trinity.

Can you and I agree on that one thing?

Here I would agree with you--

The Scriptures are clear - we do not possess exhaustive knowledge of divine truths:

We know only "in part" now (1 Corinthians 13:9).

Our perception is "through a mirror, dimly" - obscured by limitation (1 Corinthians 13:12).

The depths of God are unsearchable and His ways unknowable by full human reason (Romans 11:33).

Even Job was asked if man could probe the full mind of God (Job 11:7).

Hence, no one fully understands the Bible in this age, not because Scripture is flawed, but because our minds are limited (1 Corinthians 8:2; Proverbs 3:5–6).

So then, none of us fully comprehends the whole counsel of Scripture in this present age-not because God's Word is unclear or flawed, but because our understanding is finite. As Paul reminds us, "If anyone thinks that he knows anything, he has not yet known as he ought to know" (1 Corinthians 8:2). And Proverbs cautions us, "Trust in the Lord with all your heart and do not lean on your own understanding" (Proverbs 3:5–6).

I don’t claim to have every doctrine or theological point perfectly aligned--and neither do you, nor does anyone else here, if we’re being honest. If we all had complete knowledge, there would be perfect unity rather than division and debate among the brethren (cf. 1 Corinthians 1:10). That very tension proves we need each other in the body of Christ-to sharpen one another (Proverbs 27:17), to bear with one another in love (Ephesians 4:2), and to grow into maturity together (Ephesians 4:13–16).

Even those who say, “It’s just me, my Bible, and the Holy Spirit,” must recognize that no one is above correction. As Paul withstood Peter to his face (Galatians 2:11), so too we must remain humble and open to reproof when it comes through the Word--sometimes delivered by another member of Christ’s body. For "the ear cannot say to the hand, ‘I have no need of you’" (1 Corinthians 12:21).

Correct?

J.

 

[RandyK]

Bro, in my family giving heed to sound doctrine is normal.

That’s the way Christ followers learn and grow, reading and studying the scriptures in the Presence of God; with the anointing teaching you.

That’s the New Covenant way.

The Spirit of the LORD within, teaching us, instructing us, leading and guiding us.

I’m sorry if that seems offensive. I apologize if asking people to use scripture and not man’s commentary but let’s discuss what Jesus taught His disciples when He walked the earth.

Bro, I’m not trying to run with the crowds, I’m trying to be led by the Spirit.

Great, but what do you mean by "Man's Commentary?" Is any commentary but your own "Man's Commentary?"

 

[RandyK]

I’m always going to try to find common ground in these discussions, but rarely do, because everyone seems to have their cut and paste commentary that their denominations taught them and it’s full of man’s tradition and opinions that led them to be in that denomination.

If people want to discuss what the scriptures say, then let’s do it.

The scriptural truth and the traditions of men don’t ever mix.

I desire to find common ground in these discussions, but not at the expense of compromising the truth of the teachings and commandments of Jesus Christ.

There you go again: What's "Man's Tradition and Opinions?" Is the only opinion that matters your own?

 

[Johann!@#]

There you go again: What's "Man's Tradition and Opinions?" Is the only opinion that matters your own?

The issue, RandyK, is that he has outright refused to engage with any secondary sources.

J.

 

[RandyK]

If the “Trinity” doctrine aligns with scripture then it’s good.

I don’t use the word Trinity, but if someone is using in a discussion then that’s fine if they want to use that term.

Please understand there are variations of the doctrine of the Trinity, and there are variations of the Oneness doctrine, with overlapping areas of agreement.

When it comes down to it, people don’t understand the Godhead the way the Holy Spirit understands the doctrine of the Godhead; what is called the Trinity.

Can you and I agree on that one thing?

On what "one thing" are we to agree: that there are differences in the way Trinity and Oneness doctrine is viewed or described? Of course.

But the real important matter, to me, is that no matter how "original" the description is does it fall within the bounds of what is traditionally deemed "orthodoxy?" We may not use the exact same words--after all there are many languages and micro-cultures. But if our language is compared with conventional language, does our view square with the orthodox side or with the heretical side?

This has been important to look at because historically, movements, denominations, and churches have tended to stand or fall on the basis of a particular terminology and how it is made to be understood. For example, Mormons use the same Bible as conventional Christians and therefore use much the same language. But the terminology is somewhat altered to give the language a different slant, exposing an underlying heresy.

LDS adherents may refer to the "Stick of Joseph" in Eze 37, in the same way we may quote it. But they may believe that here, "Joseph" refers to Joseph Smith, and not to the tribe named "Joseph." So we may use similar language, but it has to elaborate to the extent we have the same understanding. Unless we don't care about what other people believe, we need to enter into a dialogue that uses similar language, coupled with the right understanding.

Language is critically important, and not just a matter of "personal preference." We have to consider how *everybody* understands the language we're using. If it isn't clear, it must be explained until it is clear. Otherwise, we show that we don't care what other people believe. And that's not what we're called to do.

 

[JLB]

I don’t claim to have every doctrine or theological point perfectly aligned--and neither do you, nor does anyone else here,

That’s why we need your sharp mind and the things the Spirit of God has gifted you to share.

We will benefit from each other, what each of us has been uniquely gifted to share… from the scriptures.

 

[JLB]

Even those who say, “It’s just me, my Bible, and the Holy Spirit,” must recognize that no one is above correction.

Amen.

 

[JLB]

Great, but what do you mean by "Man's Commentary?" Is any commentary but your own "Man's Commentary?"

Anything that is not scripture.

What would those who followed Jesus in the first century?

If those apostles were here what would they teach ?

 

[Johann!@#]

That’s why we need your sharp mind and the things the Spirit of God has gifted you to share.

We will benefit from each other, what each of us has been uniquely gifted to share… from the scriptures.

Still getting a feel for how things work around here--trying to see where I might fit in. From what I can tell so far, the forum doesn't seem very active, but I'm keeping an open mind as I settle in.

J.

 

[Johann!@#]

Anything that is not scripture.

What would those who followed Jesus in the first century?

If those apostles were here what would they teach ?

Far as I can tell, if you expound on a passage you give your own Commentary.

J.

 

[JLB]

There you go again: What's "Man's Tradition and Opinions?" Is the only opinion that matters your own?

My opinion matters nothing.

The doctrine of Christ, which is also called the apostles doctrine is what we need to be discussing.

To be follower of Christ means we know and understand and do His doctrine.

This is the solid rock any fruitful Christian community should be founded on.

Have you ever read and meditated on this scripture?

Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son.
2 John 9

 

[JLB]

Far as I can tell, if you expound on a passage you give your own Commentary.

J.

If we discuss scripture then let’s use the actual words of scripture to ask questions and answer them.

If we need to use synonyms of certain words to bring clarity then so be it.

I think if we use scripture to make our point and stay close to the intended meaning of the passage we will do well.

Not everyone will want to do this.

However I would enjoy hearing what you and others have to share, especially if the Spirit is leading you.

 

[RandyK]

Anything that is not scripture.

What would those who followed Jesus in the first century?

If those apostles were here what would they teach ?

You just don't seem to understand, that Scripture has to be understood. And that requires critical examination, research on the background, knowing the language quirks, etc. In other words, we need commentary--certainly from others, and not just from ourselves.

Who gets completely self-educated without reference to others who are scholars and experts, who provide "commentary?" To call it "man's tradition, or commentary" is so disrespectful to those who have spent years studying, researching, praying, etc.

I don't think it's possible for us to just quote Scriptures without adding any commentary. Do you really think this?

 

[RandyK]

My opinion matters nothing.

The doctrine of Christ, which is also called the apostles doctrine is what we need to be discussing.

To be follower of Christ means we know and understand and do His doctrine.

This is the solid rock any fruitful Christian community should be founded on.

Have you ever read and meditated on this scripture?

Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son.
2 John 9

Why do you assume everybody is inferior to yourself, that your own commentary is superior to everybody else's commentary? Why do you make comments yourself and not call it "Man's Commentary?" Don't you realize that every time you claim to be quoting Scripture you are adding your 2 cents worth?

Why do you think I don't use or meditate on Scripture? Have you ever memorized entire letters Paul wrote? To do this would require a lot of meditation! ;)

I started a program of memorization many years ago--I just quit when I went into the military. But I memorized 1 John, Colossians, 2 Thessalonians, probably half of Revelation, and a number of biblical chapters.

Why do you assume I don't respect Scriptures? You sound utterly judgmental, as if you are the light that exposes the sins of all others who you don't agree with. Let's get real, and we can act like brothers...

 

[Johann!@#]

If we discuss scripture then let’s use the actual words of scripture to ask questions and answer them.

If we need to use synonyms of certain words to bring clarity then so be it.

I think if we use scripture to make our point and stay close to the intended meaning of the passage we will do well.

Not everyone will want to do this.

However I would enjoy hearing what you and others have to share, especially if the Spirit is leading you.

As I’ve mentioned before, this forum seems a bit selective and not all that active, to be honest. Some here say they "walk in the Spirit 24/7" (περιπατεῖν ἐν πνεύματι), and they’ve memorized a lot of Scripture-yet when it comes to interpreting it, their reasoning often doesn’t follow soundly.

I tend to shy away from these so-called “spiritual giants,” especially when they’re deeply immersed in politics, culture wars, or just everyday business, while still acting as if they’ve arrived.

But you and I, brother, are called (ἐκλήθημεν) to redeem the time (ἐξαγοραζόμενοι τὸν καιρόν) and make the most of every opportunity-not to argue, but to proclaim the gospel clearly and faithfully.

Let’s make sure we’re preaching the right gospel, because it alone is the power of God for salvation to all who believe (Romans 1:16).

J.

 

[JLB]

You just don't seem to understand, that Scripture has to be understood.

I understand that more than you can imagine.

That’s why I pray for the Spirit of understanding to be imparted when I speak, counsel, or post on these Forums.

The Spirit of understanding, which is the Spirit of grace, the Spirit of truth as well as the Spirit of wisdom will be imparted when we share the scriptures He is leading us to share.

Let no corrupt word proceed out of your mouth, but what is good for necessary edification, that it may impart grace to the hearers. Ephesians 4:29

Words of the traditions of men and men’s commentary have no spiritual value, no anointing that imparts grace (the ability to do what we hear), to give the hearer the ability to understand and do what the truth is saying.


Like plowing a field and cultivating it over and over, preparing for the seed are those who understand; those who will reproduce the Seed.


But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.” Matthew 13:23

 

[JLB]

Some here say they "walk in the Spirit 24/7"

Who says that?

I want be in their threads so I can learn from them; from the Spirit through them.

 

[JLB]

But you and I, brother, are called (ἐκλήθημεν) to redeem the time (ἐξαγοραζόμενοι τὸν καιρόν) and make the most of every opportunity-not to argue, but to proclaim the gospel clearly and faithfully.

You need to come out on the streets with us in Houston.

Let’s how those demon possessed drug addicts take to your gospel.

 

[Johann!@#]

You need to come out on the streets with us in Houston.

Let’s how those demon possessed drug addicts take to your gospel.

I experienced this firsthand during my time at the Ark in Durban, where we went out into the streets, highways, and byways to bring people back to a place of safety--a space where we could minister to them holistically, meeting both their physical and spiritual needs by feeding, clothing, and caring for them, truly putting Matthew 25 into action.

However, I’ve also come to believe that many tend to see a demon behind every bush, attributing everything to spiritual warfare without discernment.

J.

 

[Johann!@#]

Who says that?

I want be in their threads so I can learn from them; from the Spirit through them.

A general observation I've made since I was quite young is that Charismatics and Pentecostals can be particularly intense--if you disagree with them on certain points, you're often labeled a heretic, and if you don't speak in tongues, they may question whether you're even truly born again.
Then there's also the matter of "open confessions," which at times can blur the line between genuine testimony and emotional exhibition.

J.