The Trinity

[RandyK]

So you feel that labeling my desire to have a common understanding from scripture as “Bibliolatry”? An unscriptural man made term.

There you go again! What is an "unsciptural man made term?" Are you suggesting that all words outside of the Bible are fraudulent words, or words not to be trusted? This is precisely the kind of thing that "worship of the Bible" leads to!

We worship God--not the Bible. We learn from the Bible many things that God has said. But more importantly, God speaks to us in our conscience every day of our lives. We need to be guided by that far more than by reading the Scriptures.

I believe we can use a Strongs to better understand the original language but not to change the meaning of the passage through Lexicon gymnastics.

Thank you. At least you refer to a Bible aid like a Concordance! It is not "man-made" in the negative sense just because it isn't the Bible. It isn't a credible work only because it makes constant reference to Bible verses, as if associating with the Bible somehow makes things more holy.

The Scriptures are an *aid* in our relationship with God--not its replacement. And so, referring to everything outside of Scripture as "man-made" is a form of bibliolatry, in my estimation.

Using the actual scripture itself to ask questions from the scripture and teach using the words and phrases of the scripture will keep us grounded in the truth.

I can heartily agree with that. But referring to anything outside of Scripture as "man-made" is where I draw the line. Half of what you say then I can relegate to the garbage bin as "man-made," right?

From there we can build upon that foundation with common understanding.

I certainly hope so!

 

[JLB]

Are you suggesting that all words outside of the Bible are fraudulent words, or words not to be trusted?

I’m saying that the label of bibliolatry is unscriptural and therefore man made.

 

[JLB]

I can heartily agree with that. But referring to anything outside of Scripture as "man-made" is where I draw the line. Half of what you say then I can relegate to the garbage bin as "man-made," right?

I’m saying it’s best to lay a foundation of understanding from the actual words of scripture so we can build upon the solid foundation of truth.

Much of what is written in these posts is paragraph after paragraph of scripture verses with no scripture that is tagged with that persons opinion and heavily season with quotes from other men.

It’s a Greek word salad seasoned up and topped of with Kosher dressing.

 

[RandyK]

I’m saying it’s best to lay a foundation of understanding from the actual words of scripture so we can build upon the solid foundation of truth.

Much of what is written in these posts is paragraph after paragraph of scripture verses with no scripture that is tagged with that persons opinion and heavily season with quotes from other men.

It’s a Greek word salad seasoned up and topped of with Kosher dressing.

And I would suggest that you're "judging by appearances." For many years I've been accused of "limited Scripture references." In reality I've posted many many Scripture references on nearly every subject you can think of (within popular interest).

But as I've repeatedly had to answer questions, I increasingly limited the Scripture references, either out of unnecessary repetition, or out of a need to conserve space--it may take a number of posts to cover all the points. I can always come back and provide the Scripture references, if quested.

It really depends on who I'm talking to. If I'm talking to someone who is pretty scholarly and well-informed, they already know the basic arguments from Scriptures, and I can limit my posts to covering the minutiae of the arguments, as opposed to reasserting the old well-worn Scriptural arguments.

Do you really think that just quoting Sciptures resolves the problems in these debates? Of course not! Many of them are historic arguments that began with Scriptural interpretations that differed.

 

[Johann!@#]

Much of what is written in these posts is paragraph after paragraph of scripture verses with no scripture that is tagged with that persons opinion and heavily season with quotes from other men.

Well then, high time for you to catch up then? I mean, you do use online sources, right?

J.

 

[Free]

Jesus' statement makes perfect sense to me.

That's the problem; it shouldn't. Jesus was asked, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?” (ESV). For him to answer, "before Abraham was I am he [the Messiah]," would be to completely ignore the question. But, he wasn't ignoring the question, he was answering it.

The Jews are questioning how Jesus could have possibly seen Abraham, since Jesus wasn't even 50 years old, never mind that the difference between them is over 2,000 years. Jesus's clear answer is that he not only pre-existed Abraham, but that he has always existed (as the Son), therefore claiming to be true deity, just like his Father, which we should fully expect.

That's why they tried to stone him for blasphemy. Claiming to be the Messiah was not a punishable offence; it wasn't blasphemy.

The Pharisees were not interested in what Jesus was actually saying in all of John 8, while Jesus was trying to awaken faith..

How do you understand the word "conceived" in the following?
Matthew 1:20–21 (KJV): 20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived (mg: Gr. begotten) in her is of the Holy Spirit. 21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
The word "conceived" Gr. begotten is the same word translated "begat" on numerous occasions in Matthew 1. Do you have any trouble understanding the meaning of "Abraham begat Isaac, ..."

Conception speaks of the concept that Jesus' life started in the events recorded in Matthew 1:20-21 and Luke 1:34-35 where the conception or begettal occurred when God the Father became the father of the babe in the womb and Mary was his mother. Incarnation is the concept that somehow God the Son was contracted into the womb of Mary.

Here is the problem: you're conflating conception and begetting with monogenes in order to claim that Jesus was merely human. Jesus was conceived in Mary by the Holy Spirit; there is no issue there. But that is not what monogenes, which the KJV translates as "only begotten," refers to. That is not when the Son came into existence, it is when the Son entered time and took on human flesh (John 1:14; Phil. 2:6-8).

This goes back to your quote from the KJV of John 1:18--"the only begotten Son"--which is based on the Textus Receptus. But, the best manuscripts actually read "God only begotten." This is why the NIV (1984) translates it as "God the One and Only," and the newer NIV as "the one and only Son, who is himself God." Even then, based on the meaning of monogenes, the KJV should be understood as saying, "the one and only Son."

John has already plainly called the Word theos in 1:1c, which itself is simply the logical conclusion of 1:1a (eternal pre-existence) and 1:1b (was in interpersonal relationship with God). Then, he clearly equates the Son with the Word in verse 10--"the world was made through him" (being consistent with verse 3). The Word, as John speaks of him in in his prologue, is a clearly "person," distinct from the Father, yet God in nature just as the Father is. That is the only logical conclusion of John 1:1-18, based on a plain understanding of what John states.

It is impossible to truly understand John's gospel without understanding that the Son has always existed. It's only that through Mary he took on human nature in addition to his divine nature (Phil. 2:6-8) and had the name Jesus. But, as the Son, there was never a time when he did not exist.

 

[Fish153]

Greetings again Johann,

Have you ever considered some of the Ebionites who believed in the virgin birth? They lived before the early "Church fathers". In an earlier post you mentioned two early manuscripts. What manuscript did the Ebionites possess?

What does that REALLY mean? The terms are contradictory, and this is invented to reject the clear testimony of the expression "the only begotten of the Father" Who was responsible for altering the original rendition of John 1:18?

I have considered Philippians 2 in my response to you in the following Post:

T

Post in thread 'The Trinity'

Thursday at 2:44 AM

Greetings again Johann,

I made a mistake in my previous Post. I used the word dispensation when I should have said disposition. I will repeat the relevant portion for clarity.

"Who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men."

The same word "form" in "form of God" is also used for "form of servant". Paul is speaking of his disposition of mind, not the incarnation. Jesus was born the greatest prince ever born, but he did not use this status, but...

• TrevorL

Yes. He is the firstborn of the new creation Psalm 8.
Psalm 8:3–6 (KJV): 3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained; 4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:

Kind regards
Trevor

"But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, FROM EVERLASTING." (Micah 5:2).

The Son has existed forever. "From everlasting to everlasting thou art God". Micah clearly states that Jesus would be born in Bethlehem---but his origin is ETERNAL. Jesus was NOT a CREATED BEING in any sense of the word. He is very God of very God. He is the second person of the Trinity. The SON of GOD. The WORD incarnate.

 

[Johann!@#]

"But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, FROM EVERLASTING." (Micah 5:2).

The Son has existed forever. "From everlasting to everlasting thou art God". Micah clearly states that Jesus would be born in Bethlehem---but his origin is ETERNAL. Jesus was NOT a CREATED BEING in any sense of the word. He is very God of very God. He is the second person of the Trinity. The SON of GOD. The WORD incarnate.

Now we are going somewhere Fish153!!--right to the heart, where it matters!

Johann.

 

[Free]

"But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, FROM EVERLASTING." (Micah 5:2).

The Son has existed forever. "From everlasting to everlasting thou art God". Micah clearly states that Jesus would be born in Bethlehem---but his origin is ETERNAL. Jesus was NOT a CREATED BEING in any sense of the word. He is very God of very God. He is the second person of the Trinity. The SON of GOD. The WORD incarnate.

From the OT we also have:

Gen 18:1 And the LORD appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, as he sat at the door of his tent in the heat of the day.
Gen 18:2 He lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing in front of him. When he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them and bowed himself to the earth
...
Gen 18:20 Then the LORD said, “Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great and their sin is very grave,
Gen 18:21 I will go down to see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry that has come to me. And if not, I will know.”
Gen 18:22 So the men turned from there and went toward Sodom, but Abraham still stood before the LORD.
...
Gen 18:26 And the LORD said, “If I find at Sodom fifty righteous in the city, I will spare the whole place for their sake.”
...
Gen 18:32 Then he said, “Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak again but this once. Suppose ten are found there.” He answered, “For the sake of ten I will not destroy it.”
Gen 18:33 And the LORD went his way, when he had finished speaking to Abraham, and Abraham returned to his place. (ESV)

We know from 18:2 that there were "three men." We also know that two of them were angels (18:22; 19:1), leaving the third one to be YHWH.

All of which leads directly to this:

Gen 19:24 Then the LORD rained on Sodom and Gomorrah sulfur and fire from the LORD out of heaven. (ESV)

Gen 19:24 Yahweh rained down from heaven upon Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from Yahweh. (LEB)

It seems to me that there are two named YHWH--one who was on earth (Gen. 18:1) and went to Sodom for the purpose of deciding judgement, and another in heaven.

 

[RandyK]

I do find it interesting the *way* God communicated how He has appeared in the world in history. I find it interesting how almost cryptic it is the way God revealed His Son as a Divine Messiah.

You will note how many Jews thought their Messiah could not have been Divine, even though it was their Scriptures indicating that? And you will note how many unbelievers in former Christian countries there have been who denied there was any kind of reasonable proof that God appeared in Christ, or in anything for that matter.

In my thinking, God did it this way with the knowledge that a large portion of mankind would have to decide whether to "like God" or not. This happens when the one campaigning for Himself is not too aggressive, and allows the people He courts to fall into a trap, thinking things are not quite explicit enough when they really are?

The best way to know if someone really likes God is to see if they like experiencing Him, as opposed to appearances and thought processes that bypass the actual contact. If you connect with God, seeing His love and experiencing His love, and then want it forever, that's the proper way to be evangelized--not by logical proofs alone.

Just my thoughts....

 

[Fish153]

From the OT we also have:

Gen 18:1 And the LORD appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, as he sat at the door of his tent in the heat of the day.
Gen 18:2 He lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing in front of him. When he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them and bowed himself to the earth
...
Gen 18:20 Then the LORD said, “Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great and their sin is very grave,
Gen 18:21 I will go down to see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry that has come to me. And if not, I will know.”
Gen 18:22 So the men turned from there and went toward Sodom, but Abraham still stood before the LORD.
...
Gen 18:26 And the LORD said, “If I find at Sodom fifty righteous in the city, I will spare the whole place for their sake.”
...
Gen 18:32 Then he said, “Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak again but this once. Suppose ten are found there.” He answered, “For the sake of ten I will not destroy it.”
Gen 18:33 And the LORD went his way, when he had finished speaking to Abraham, and Abraham returned to his place. (ESV)

We know from 18:2 that there were "three men." We also know that two of them were angels (18:22; 19:1), leaving the third one to be YHWH.

All of which leads directly to this:

Gen 19:24 Then the LORD rained on Sodom and Gomorrah sulfur and fire from the LORD out of heaven. (ESV)

Gen 19:24 Yahweh rained down from heaven upon Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from Yahweh. (LEB)

It seems to me that there are two named YHWH--one who was on earth (Gen. 18:1) and went to Sodom for the purpose of deciding judgement, and another in heaven.

Free---

Just on a side note: Genesis 18 has always intrigued me. The "three men" walk towards Abraham and he falls down and says "Lord". Then he says "rest yourselves under a tree and we will wash your feet". He doesn't differentiate one above another. He also does the same when he feeds them: he feeds them all the SAME---he doesn't honor one over the other. That is why I believe the THREE "represent" the LORD. Also note when Abraham has the meal prepared:

"And he took butter, and milk, and the calf which he had dressed, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree, and they did eat". (Genesis 18: 8)

Note that butter, milk and the calf are THREE products from a cow. Perhaps it is nothing, and just coincidence---but I have always found that to be quite interesting. I believe the TRINITY is being taught in Genesis 18--I really do.

 

[Free]

Free---

Just on a side note: Genesis 18 has always intrigued me. The "three men" walk towards Abraham and he falls down and says "Lord". Then he says "rest yourselves under a tree and we will wash your feet". He doesn't differentiate one above another. He also does the same when he feeds them: he feeds them all the SAME---he doesn't honor one over the other. That is why I believe the THREE "represent" the LORD. Also note when Abraham has the meal prepared:

"And he took butter, and milk, and the calf which he had dressed, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree, and they did eat". (Genesis 18: 8)

Note that butter, milk and the calf are THREE products from a cow. Perhaps it is nothing, and just coincidence---but I have always found that to be quite interesting. I believe the TRINITY is being taught in Genesis 18--I really do.

The possibility is slim since we are clearly told that two of the "men" are angels. They go on to Sodom while Yahweh stays behind and talks with Abraham before continuing on to Sodom as well. I think that Abraham was just being hospitable and providing the same food; angels still are messengers of God.

 

[JLB]

Do you really think that just quoting Sciptures resolves the problems in these debates?

I never said or implied any such thing.

 

[Johann!@#]

The best way to know if someone really likes God is to see if they like experiencing Him, as opposed to appearances and thought processes that bypass the actual contact. If you connect with God, seeing His love and experiencing His love, and then want it forever, that's the proper way to be evangelized--not by logical proofs alone.

Amazing that you bring up the word “experience”...I couldn't agree more. I just came out of a discussion on Hebrews 6 regarding whether a believer can forfeit his salvation, and as I was reflecting on it, I had a conversation with a brother in Christ about this very issue. The conclusion we reached was sobering: we can know the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, quote it in debates, and even memorize entire chapters--yet still be missing something vital... experience.

How do we truly experience the indwelling of the Holy Spirit?

Here are key New Testament verses describing the felt, experiential, and inner witness of the Holy Spirit, with the core Greek verbs, lemmas, grammatical forms, and meanings for each:

Romans 5:5 — “The love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit...”
Greek verb: ἐκκέχυται
Lemma: ἐκχέω
Tense-Voice-Mood: Perfect Passive Indicative
Meaning: “has been poured out” — denoting a completed past action with present result; the Spirit's presence is experientially real in the heart.

Acts 2:4 — “They were all filled with the Holy Spirit...”
Greek verb: ἐπλήσθησαν
Lemma: πίμπλημι
Tense-Voice-Mood: Aorist Passive Indicative
Meaning: “they were filled” - denotes a momentary yet real experiential filling, tangible and vocal (tongues followed).

Acts 4:31 — “...they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the word of God with boldness.”
Greek verb: ἐπλήσθησαν
Same verb and form as Acts 2:4, emphasizing repetition of the felt infilling post-Pentecost.

Galatians 4:6 — “God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, ‘Abba! Father!’”
Greek verb: ἐξαπέστειλεν
Lemma: ἐξαποστέλλω
Tense-Voice-Mood: Aorist Active Indicative
Meaning: “He sent forth” — a decisive action from God into the human heart, resulting in an internal cry, showing experiential intimacy.

John 14:17 — “...He abides with you and will be in you.”
Greek verb: μένει
Lemma: μένω
Tense-Voice-Mood: Present Active Indicative
Meaning: “He remains/abides” — indicating ongoing, experiential presence, not a distant influence.

Ephesians 3:16 — “...to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man.”
Greek verb: κραταιωθῆναι
Lemma: κραταιόω
Tense-Voice-Mood: Aorist Passive Infinitive
Meaning: “to be strengthened” — this passive form implies inward reception of divine empowerment, experiential in nature.

1 Thessalonians 1:6 — “...you received the word in much tribulation with the joy of the Holy Spirit.”
Greek verb: δεξάμενοι
Lemma: δέχομαι
Tense-Voice-Mood: Aorist Middle Participle
Meaning: “having received” — actively welcoming with inward joy supplied by the Spirit.

2 Corinthians 1:22 — “...who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.”
Greek verb: δοὺς
Lemma: δίδωμι
Tense-Voice-Mood: Aorist Active Participle
Meaning: “having given” — again pointing to a decisive past action with ongoing effect in the heart.

Acts 13:52 — “...the disciples were continually filled with joy and with the Holy Spirit.”
Greek verb: ἐπληροῦντο
Lemma: πίμπλημι
Tense-Voice-Mood: Imperfect Passive Indicative
Meaning: “they were being filled” - continuous, repeated experiential filling, not a one-time event.

Romans 8:16 — “The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God.”
Greek verb: συμμαρτυρεῖ
Lemma: συμμαρτυρέω
Tense-Voice-Mood: Present Active Indicative
Meaning: “testifies with” - a current, inward, co-witnessing of identity, deeply felt within the believer.

These verbs consistently convey not only theological reality [that's the easy part] but experiential immediacy, [that's the "hard" part] indicating that the Holy Spirit is known, sensed, and manifest in the believer's inner life, whether by joy, assurance, strength, or vocal overflow.

I mean, in this day and age, how many of us can truly say we are living with a continual, experiential co-witnessing of the Holy Spirit?

And HOW sure are we re our salvation? Just going through the motions, saying a prayer, go to Church, do good deeds? Going on feelings, emotions?

Just MY 2 cents and only want to hear from those who are struggling as I am.

Johann.

 

[Fish153]

The possibility is slim since we are clearly told that two of the "men" are angels. They go on to Sodom while Yahweh stays behind and talks with Abraham before continuing on to Sodom as well. I think that Abraham was just being hospitable and providing the same food; angels still are messengers of God.

Free--- What I was saying (and think is true) is that the "three men" REPRESENT God. The reason I say that once again is that Abraham does not treat any one of them better than he treats the rest. He offers them the same things, and feeds them the same food. He does not distinguish ONE as God and the others as angels. Why would he TREAT the angels the same way as he treats God, if Abraham KNEW only one of them was the Lord?

 

[RandyK]

Amazing that you bring up the word “experience”...I couldn't agree more. I just came out of a discussion on Hebrews 6 regarding whether a believer can forfeit his salvation, and as I was reflecting on it, I had a conversation with a brother in Christ about this very issue. The conclusion we reached was sobering: we can know the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, quote it in debates, and even memorize entire chapters--yet still be missing something vital... experience.

How do we truly experience the indwelling of the Holy Spirit?

Here are key New Testament verses describing the felt, experiential, and inner witness of the Holy Spirit, with the core Greek verbs, lemmas, grammatical forms, and meanings for each:

Romans 5:5 — “The love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit...”
Greek verb: ἐκκέχυται
Lemma: ἐκχέω
Tense-Voice-Mood: Perfect Passive Indicative
Meaning: “has been poured out” — denoting a completed past action with present result; the Spirit's presence is experientially real in the heart.

Acts 2:4 — “They were all filled with the Holy Spirit...”
Greek verb: ἐπλήσθησαν
Lemma: πίμπλημι
Tense-Voice-Mood: Aorist Passive Indicative
Meaning: “they were filled” - denotes a momentary yet real experiential filling, tangible and vocal (tongues followed).

Acts 4:31 — “...they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the word of God with boldness.”
Greek verb: ἐπλήσθησαν
Same verb and form as Acts 2:4, emphasizing repetition of the felt infilling post-Pentecost.

Galatians 4:6 — “God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, ‘Abba! Father!’”
Greek verb: ἐξαπέστειλεν
Lemma: ἐξαποστέλλω
Tense-Voice-Mood: Aorist Active Indicative
Meaning: “He sent forth” — a decisive action from God into the human heart, resulting in an internal cry, showing experiential intimacy.

John 14:17 — “...He abides with you and will be in you.”
Greek verb: μένει
Lemma: μένω
Tense-Voice-Mood: Present Active Indicative
Meaning: “He remains/abides” — indicating ongoing, experiential presence, not a distant influence.

Ephesians 3:16 — “...to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man.”
Greek verb: κραταιωθῆναι
Lemma: κραταιόω
Tense-Voice-Mood: Aorist Passive Infinitive
Meaning: “to be strengthened” — this passive form implies inward reception of divine empowerment, experiential in nature.

1 Thessalonians 1:6 — “...you received the word in much tribulation with the joy of the Holy Spirit.”
Greek verb: δεξάμενοι
Lemma: δέχομαι
Tense-Voice-Mood: Aorist Middle Participle
Meaning: “having received” — actively welcoming with inward joy supplied by the Spirit.

2 Corinthians 1:22 — “...who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.”
Greek verb: δοὺς
Lemma: δίδωμι
Tense-Voice-Mood: Aorist Active Participle
Meaning: “having given” — again pointing to a decisive past action with ongoing effect in the heart.

Acts 13:52 — “...the disciples were continually filled with joy and with the Holy Spirit.”
Greek verb: ἐπληροῦντο
Lemma: πίμπλημι
Tense-Voice-Mood: Imperfect Passive Indicative
Meaning: “they were being filled” - continuous, repeated experiential filling, not a one-time event.

Romans 8:16 — “The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God.”
Greek verb: συμμαρτυρεῖ
Lemma: συμμαρτυρέω
Tense-Voice-Mood: Present Active Indicative
Meaning: “testifies with” - a current, inward, co-witnessing of identity, deeply felt within the believer.

These verbs consistently convey not only theological reality [that's the easy part] but experiential immediacy, [that's the "hard" part] indicating that the Holy Spirit is known, sensed, and manifest in the believer's inner life, whether by joy, assurance, strength, or vocal overflow.

I mean, in this day and age, how many of us can truly say we are living with a continual, experiential co-witnessing of the Holy Spirit?

And HOW sure are we re our salvation? Just going through the motions, saying a prayer, go to Church, do good deeds? Going on feelings, emotions?

Just MY 2 cents and only want to hear from those who are struggling as I am.

Johann.

Wonderful collection of Holy Spirit experiences! I do believe we should be walking in the Spirit all the time. But I must confess that there was a long time in my life where even though I sensed the Spirit with me all the time I did not feel particularly blessed.

And I don't think life in the Spirit is regularly an empowerment for ministry, or rejoicing in the Spirit. He is there as a constant reminder that His fellowship with us is important to our lives, putting off temptations and mitigating weaknesses, like excessive arguing, complaining, etc.

We may go through some very difficult times. And I do believe we go through a testing process in which we see how empty a shell we are without God there. So be encouraged--joy comes in the morning.

A time will come for many of us in which we feel God with us all the time, communicating with us, leading us, and at the same time accept that not everything we do is going to be fruitful, in terms of work, entertainment, or ministry. We simply accept God's will, and are given to have the Lord with us, spiritually.

 

[RandyK]

I never said or implied any such thing.

I should think not. And yet....

 

[JLB]

Amazing that you bring up the word “experience”...I couldn't agree more. I just came out of a discussion on Hebrews 6 regarding whether a believer can forfeit his salvation, and as I was reflecting on it, I had a conversation with a brother in Christ about this very issue. The conclusion we reached was sobering: we can know the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, quote it in debates, and even memorize entire chapters--yet still be missing something vital... experience.

How do we truly experience the indwelling of the Holy Spirit?

Amen sir.

Acts 8 teaches us this very thing.

Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit. Acts 8:14-17

We can receive the message of salvation and be born again.

We can then be baptized in water in the name of the Lord Jesus… and still be missing the life changing experience of receiving the Holy Spirit; the baptism with the Spirit.

 

[JLB]

Amazing that you bring up the word “experience”...I couldn't agree more. I just came out of a discussion on Hebrews 6 regarding whether a believer can forfeit his salvation, and as I was reflecting on it, I had a conversation with a brother in Christ about this very issue. The conclusion we reached was sobering: we can know the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, quote it in debates, and even memorize entire chapters--yet still be missing something vital... experience.

How do we truly experience the indwelling of the Holy Spirit?

Here are key New Testament verses describing the felt, experiential, and inner witness of the Holy Spirit, with the core Greek verbs, lemmas, grammatical forms, and meanings for each:

Romans 5:5 — “The love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit...”
Greek verb: ἐκκέχυται
Lemma: ἐκχέω
Tense-Voice-Mood: Perfect Passive Indicative
Meaning: “has been poured out” — denoting a completed past action with present result; the Spirit's presence is experientially real in the heart.

Acts 2:4 — “They were all filled with the Holy Spirit...”
Greek verb: ἐπλήσθησαν
Lemma: πίμπλημι
Tense-Voice-Mood: Aorist Passive Indicative
Meaning: “they were filled” - denotes a momentary yet real experiential filling, tangible and vocal (tongues followed).

Acts 4:31 — “...they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the word of God with boldness.”
Greek verb: ἐπλήσθησαν
Same verb and form as Acts 2:4, emphasizing repetition of the felt infilling post-Pentecost.

Galatians 4:6 — “God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, ‘Abba! Father!’”
Greek verb: ἐξαπέστειλεν
Lemma: ἐξαποστέλλω
Tense-Voice-Mood: Aorist Active Indicative
Meaning: “He sent forth” — a decisive action from God into the human heart, resulting in an internal cry, showing experiential intimacy.

John 14:17 — “...He abides with you and will be in you.”
Greek verb: μένει
Lemma: μένω
Tense-Voice-Mood: Present Active Indicative
Meaning: “He remains/abides” — indicating ongoing, experiential presence, not a distant influence.

Ephesians 3:16 — “...to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man.”
Greek verb: κραταιωθῆναι
Lemma: κραταιόω
Tense-Voice-Mood: Aorist Passive Infinitive
Meaning: “to be strengthened” — this passive form implies inward reception of divine empowerment, experiential in nature.

1 Thessalonians 1:6 — “...you received the word in much tribulation with the joy of the Holy Spirit.”
Greek verb: δεξάμενοι
Lemma: δέχομαι
Tense-Voice-Mood: Aorist Middle Participle
Meaning: “having received” — actively welcoming with inward joy supplied by the Spirit.

2 Corinthians 1:22 — “...who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.”
Greek verb: δοὺς
Lemma: δίδωμι
Tense-Voice-Mood: Aorist Active Participle
Meaning: “having given” — again pointing to a decisive past action with ongoing effect in the heart.

Acts 13:52 — “...the disciples were continually filled with joy and with the Holy Spirit.”
Greek verb: ἐπληροῦντο
Lemma: πίμπλημι
Tense-Voice-Mood: Imperfect Passive Indicative
Meaning: “they were being filled” - continuous, repeated experiential filling, not a one-time event.

Romans 8:16 — “The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God.”
Greek verb: συμμαρτυρεῖ
Lemma: συμμαρτυρέω
Tense-Voice-Mood: Present Active Indicative
Meaning: “testifies with” - a current, inward, co-witnessing of identity, deeply felt within the believer.

These verbs consistently convey not only theological reality [that's the easy part] but experiential immediacy, [that's the "hard" part] indicating that the Holy Spirit is known, sensed, and manifest in the believer's inner life, whether by joy, assurance, strength, or vocal overflow.

I mean, in this day and age, how many of us can truly say we are living with a continual, experiential co-witnessing of the Holy Spirit?

And HOW sure are we re our salvation? Just going through the motions, saying a prayer, go to Church, do good deeds? Going on feelings, emotions?

Just MY 2 cents and only want to hear from those who are struggling as I am.

Johann.

Brother we all are struggling with wanting more in our experience with the Lord that only the Spirit can bring us into.

Whether we have received the baptism with the Spirit or not I believe we all have a burning desire to know our Lord the way He desires for us to know Him, and walk with Him.

 

[Johann!@#]

Amen sir.

Acts 8 teaches us this very thing.

Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit. Acts 8:14-17

We can receive the message of salvation and be born again.

We can then be baptized in water in the name of the Lord Jesus… and still be missing the life changing experience of receiving the Holy Spirit; the baptism with the Spirit.

Friend, I have received the baptism of the Spirit, and please reread my entire post.

Ephesians 4:5 (NASB):
“One Lord, one faith, one baptism”

Greek Text (Nestle-Aland 28th Edition):
εἷς κύριος, μία πίστις, ἓν βάπτισμα

Key Greek Words:
εἷς κύριος – one Lord (εἷς = one [masc.]; κύριος = Lord, Master)

μία πίστις – one faith (μία = one [fem.]; πίστις = faith, belief, trust)

ἓν βάπτισμα – one baptism (ἓν = one [neut.]; βάπτισμα = baptism

Context:
This verse is part of a larger unit, Ephesians 4:1–6, which emphasizes unity in the body of Christ. Paul lists seven unifying elements of the faith: one body, one Spirit, one hope, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all.

So please, I want to have a discussion with others going through the same experience as I am and not the underlying nuance that I'm "missing something"

Don't "dissect" my post and miss the context, please.

J.