The Trinity

[hawkman]

We do believe the eternal life that was with the Father appeared in flesh. That is truth.

Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: “Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me.

The question is about the "me" that was in that body.

All that was given is that it was His spirit.

"Father into your hands I commit MY spirit"

If the Son of man had the spirit of a man in that human flesh how can all of Him be God? What part of the me that descended from above was in that body if not His own spirit? The spirit is life the flesh counts for nothing.

Jesus would not have to ask and receive His own spirit from another. Nor speak of His own spirit as another from Himself. His spirit is not the Fathers but the spirit of Gods first begotten. The only Deity in the Son is the Father's.

And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever

God spoke to us by His Son.
Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.

The Fathers works Jesus performed don't testify He is the true God rather that He and the Father are ONE.

37Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 38But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father

Jesus has a God and a Father just like us. Jesus is our Lord.

The eternal life found in the Son is the Father. It's the Fathers Deity living in Him. They are one.

He is speaking of life with no end. The wicked and unbelievers live in flesh.

Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.

So, while all the fullness of the Fathers Deity lives in Him and He is the radiance of Gods glory and the exact imprint of the Fathers very being. (God), He is not coeternal. He is the image of the invisible God not the invisible God. He has always been the Son.

Here is where it stops for me the Apostles Creed , why would I need to go further ?

The Apostles’ Creed​

I believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.

I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit
and born of the virgin Mary.
He suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried;
he descended to hell.
The third day he rose again from the dead.
He ascended to heaven
and is seated at the right hand of God the Father almighty.
From there he will come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic* church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting. Amen.

*that is, the true Christian church of all times and all places

The Full Text of the Apostles' Creed - Bibles.net

Read the full text of the Apostles' Creed from the 1988 translation. The Apostles' Creed summarizes what Christians believe.

www.bibles.net

 

[Fish153]

We do believe the eternal life that was with the Father appeared in flesh. That is truth.

Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: “Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me.

The question is about the "me" that was in that body.

All that was given is that it was His spirit.

"Father into your hands I commit MY spirit"

If the Son of man had the spirit of a man in that human flesh how can all of Him be God? What part of the me that descended from above was in that body if not His own spirit? The spirit is life the flesh counts for nothing.

Jesus would not have to ask and receive His own spirit from another. Nor speak of His own spirit as another from Himself. His spirit is not the Fathers but the spirit of Gods first begotten. The only Deity in the Son is the Father's.

And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever

God spoke to us by His Son.
Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.

The Fathers works Jesus performed don't testify He is the true God rather that He and the Father are ONE.

37Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 38But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father

Jesus has a God and a Father just like us. Jesus is our Lord.

The eternal life found in the Son is the Father. It's the Fathers Deity living in Him. They are one.

He is speaking of life with no end. The wicked and unbelievers live in flesh.

Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.

So, while all the fullness of the Fathers Deity lives in Him and He is the radiance of Gods glory and the exact imprint of the Fathers very being. (God), He is not coeternal. He is the image of the invisible God not the invisible God. He has always been the Son.

Randy---
"For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily" (Col. 2:9)

"Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and WE will come unto him, and make OUR abode with him". (John 14:23)

"And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I HAD WITH THEE BEFORE THE WORLD WAS" (John 17:5)

Your theology is very strange. You say "He is not coeternal" (The Son). Of course Jesus is Co-eternal! The Son has existed, along with the Father and the Spirit "from everlasting to everlasting" (forever). The Father and the Son are two "persons" clearly shown from the verses I posted. And Col. 2:9 says the full GODHEAD dwells in Jesus. (see above). So, your theology is confusing to say the least.

 

[RandyK]

Here is where it stops for me the Apostles Creed , why would I need to go further ?

The Apostles’ Creed​

I believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.

I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit
and born of the virgin Mary.
He suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried;
he descended to hell.
The third day he rose again from the dead.
He ascended to heaven
and is seated at the right hand of God the Father almighty.
From there he will come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic* church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting. Amen.

*that is, the true Christian church of all times and all places

The Full Text of the Apostles' Creed - Bibles.net

Read the full text of the Apostles' Creed from the 1988 translation. The Apostles' Creed summarizes what Christians believe.

www.bibles.net

Absolutely, things appear to have become pretty settled after the early Councils, the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD and the Council of Constantinople in 381 AD. The 1st Council established, clearly, the full Deity of Jesus Christ against the more subordinationist claim of the Arians.

Christ was not separated from God when a body was created for him. Some would say that Christ's full humanity was an "extension" from eternity of God's eternal Being.

The Council of Constantinople established a clearer Trinitarian formula. Perhaps it can never be fully explained how God could "create" a revelation of His own Divine Person in "another human Person?" Using "one Person" and "3 Persons" in the same sentence risks the charge of "irrational!"

But God is transcendent, or infinite. God's "Person" as an Essence, or as a Substance, is different from how His transcendent Person is expressed in the other Persons of the Trinity, who share the same Divine Essence and Substance.

How His Word can "separate" from His place "before creation" and insert the same Essence into "creation" nobody can say. We can only formulate it and accept it. But we do have to state it as "orthodox" as possible, to avoid the obvious errors of Arianism and modalism.

Reducing this argument to a "Creed" is therefore perfectly reasonable and probably the best way to approach it, avoiding the errors. Thank you!

 

[hawkman]

Absolutely, things appear to have become pretty settled after the early Councils, the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD and the Council of Constantinople in 381 AD. The 1st Council established, clearly, the full Deity of Jesus Christ against the more subordinationist claim of the Arians.

So when Jesus left the apostles sight that day he ascended , the things we needed to know became unsettled ?

How His Word can "separate" from His place "before creation" and insert the same Essence into "creation" nobody can say. We can only formulate it and accept it. But we do have to state it as "orthodox" as possible, to avoid the obvious errors of Arianism and modalism.

Nobody can say , that is why I don't go there . I see no need to .

Reducing this argument to a "Creed" is therefore perfectly reasonable and probably the best way to approach it, avoiding the errors. Thank you!

Ok . Which Creed is yours and can you post it for me ?

 

[RandyK]

So when Jesus left the apostles sight that day he ascended , the things we needed to know became unsettled ?

No, obviously, the Arian controversy could not have been "settled" before it actually took place. Trinitarian doctrine had not been codified, to prevent abuses by future heretics.

But yes, all of the truth necessary for a later Trinitarian formulation were there from the start. Father, Son, and Spirit is presented in the Gospel accounts as distinct Divine Persons. The Son is presented as the great "I Am" or Yahweh.

Nobody can say , that is why I don't go there . I see no need to .

For many Christians there is indeed no need to go into the difficult matters brought on by heretics in the early centuries of the Church. But these heresies tend to reemerge at different times.

Some feel called to deal with them. I had to deal with them personally in my life because I somehow got sucked into a cultic group that taught modalism.

At the time I knew nothing about "modalism." I would help others avoid what I went through if they are on the verge of going there too.

But I agree--this is not for everybody. It would turn some people off who have no need to get a degree in theology or take classes on Trinitarianism.

Ok . Which Creed is yours and can you post it for me ?

I already provided them. I have nuanced differences in the use of words with the Creeds. I would add to the creeds listed the 451 AD Chalcedonian Council because it deals with the dual nature of Christ, which I feel is very important. It's still important in discussions I'm having right now, with respect to whether Jesus had only the Holy Spirit for a spirit, or an actual human spirit?

I don't have a problem with subordinationism or with the use of a single Divine "Person." These things can be explained rather than proposed as if in a supposed contradiction with the equality of God or in a supposed conflict between one God and three Persons.

Other than that I think the Creeds do a masterful job of keeping things as simple as they can be: one Divine Substance and Three distinct Persons. Christ, both fully God and fully human.

Thanks for your questions! These are real and important matters of concern to many.

 

[Randy]

Randy---
"For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily" (Col. 2:9)

Col 1:19 yes, I know. But why the need if He is Deity as is the Father?

"Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and WE will come unto him, and make OUR abode with him". (John 14:23)

The Father is the source true God in the creeds and noted as the one true God from whom all things come in the NT. It's His Spirit always. He sent His Spirit in Jesus's name. The Spirit in a believer is in the persona of the Son. That is He conveys the mind and will of Christ in the believer. Hence the Spirit of Christ yet also the Father as its His Spirit always.
But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

"And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I HAD WITH THEE BEFORE THE WORLD WAS" (John 17:5)

Yes, Jesus is the only begotten God who came from the Fathers presence and is the only eyewitness of God the Father to appear in flesh. The Father alone is unbegotten as He is the true God.

John 1:18 Greek Text Analysis

Your theology is very strange. You say "He is not coeternal" (The Son). Of course Jesus is Co-eternal! The Son has existed, along with the Father and the Spirit "from everlasting to everlasting" (forever). The Father and the Son are two "persons" clearly shown from the verses I posted. And Col. 2:9 says the full GODHEAD dwells in Jesus. (see above). So, your theology is confusing to say the least.

The Son is Gods first begotten. (His spirit) The firstborn of all creation. The Father is unbegotten.

I agree in part.
Begotten of the Father alone before all things but not made.

I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the Only Begotten Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages.
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father;
through him all things were made.

 

[Randy]

Here is where it stops for me the Apostles Creed , why would I need to go further ?

The Apostles’ Creed​

I believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.

I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit
and born of the virgin Mary.
He suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried;
he descended to hell.
The third day he rose again from the dead.
He ascended to heaven
and is seated at the right hand of God the Father almighty.
From there he will come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic* church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting. Amen.

*that is, the true Christian church of all times and all places

The Full Text of the Apostles' Creed - Bibles.net

Read the full text of the Apostles' Creed from the 1988 translation. The Apostles' Creed summarizes what Christians believe.

www.bibles.net

I can agree with God our Father and Jesus our Lord.

 

[RandyK]

Col 1:19 yes, I know. But why the need if He is Deity as is the Father?

Obviously there was a need to state the Deity of Christ. Ultimately, the Ebionites rejected Jesus' Deity.

The Father is the source true God in the creeds and noted as the one true God from whom all things come in the NT. It's His Spirit always. He sent His Spirit in Jesus's name. The Spirit in a believer is in the persona of the Son.

The Persons of the Trinity, including the Holy Spirit and the Son, are to be treated differently from the Infinite Person, or "Being" of God, because they are condensed projections originating from the Eternal God and coming to be as the Eternal God in our frame of reference. In sum, they are limited Persons in the sense that they are revelations produced in distinction from their Divine Source, but they are unlimited in their identification as the Eternal Being of God.

When, for example, we speak of the Holy Spirit, we are speaking of a condensed revelation of the Eternal God within limited time and space, indicating that we see him move within the limits of our world. But to confuse Him with the Infinite Divine "Being" of God from Eternity is to confuse the differences between local recognition and the infinite source of this revelation.

When we see the Holy Spirit move in our church we are not seeing God move before the universe existed and throughout the universe simultaneously. We are only seeing Him move *in our church!*

So we can't confuse the infinite Being of God as a Spirit and the operation of the Holy Spirit as a distinct Person. We are not saying the Holy Spirit is a separate spirit from God--we are only saying that the Holy Spirit is a distinct Person that we see in a limited way.

 

[Randy]

Obviously there was a need to state the Deity of Christ. Ultimately, the Ebionites rejected Jesus' Deity.

Why was there a need for the Deity to dwell in Him if He is Deity as is the true God our Father?
Who lives in Him?

Christ alone was given the fullness of the Deity by God. We were given fullness in Him.
For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 10and in Christ you have been brought to fullness. He is the head over every power and authority.

The Persons of the Trinity, including the Holy Spirit and the Son, are to be treated differently from the Infinite Person, or "Being" of God, because they are condensed projections originating from the Eternal God and coming to be as the Eternal God in our frame of reference. In sum, they are limited Persons in the sense that they are revelations produced in distinction from their Divine Source, but they are unlimited in their identification as the Eternal Being of God.

I state Jesus is ALL that the Father is and don't view Him as a limited person or condensed projection of God our Father. In Him, as we have been stating, dwells all the fullness of the Deity. The difference we have is I state it is the Fathers Deity that was pleased to live in Him rather than He is Deity in Himself as is God our Father the true God. Jesus is the only like to like begotten Son of the Father. Hence the begotten God. God our Father is unbegotten. Jesus has always been a child of His God and Father. He is not coeternal.

When, for example, we speak of the Holy Spirit, we are speaking of a condensed revelation of the Eternal God within limited time and space, indicating that we see him move within the limits of our world. But to confuse Him with the Infinite Divine "Being" of God from Eternity is to confuse the differences between local recognition and the infinite source of this revelation.

I view the Spirit of truth also called the Holy Spirit or Spirit of the sovereign Lord as the Spirit of the only true God our Father. The Fathers Spirit conveys or speaks what He hears from the mind of the Spirit.

It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me
Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit,’ says the Lord Almighty.
In the lasts days I will pour out My Spirit...

When we see the Holy Spirit move in our church we are not seeing God move before the universe existed and throughout the universe simultaneously. We are only seeing Him move *in our church!*

I believe God existed before the church. I can't see or touch the Spirit. Only in my own being can I feel His presence when God permits. (inward and outward) Otherwise, I feel nothing.

So we can't confuse the infinite Being of God as a Spirit and the operation of the Holy Spirit as a distinct Person. We are not saying the Holy Spirit is a separate spirit from God--we are only saying that the Holy Spirit is a distinct Person that we see in a limited way.

God is Spirit as Jesus stated.
He was anointed by the Spirit of the one who sent Him not a 3rd person.
“The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to set the oppressed free,

Here is truth:
But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say, 20for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings RandyK and Randy,

For many Christians there is indeed no need to go into the difficult matters brought on by heretics in the early centuries of the Church. But these heresies tend to reemerge at different times.

Yes, Jesus is the only begotten God who came from the Fathers presence and is the only eyewitness of God the Father to appear in flesh. The Father alone is unbegotten as He is the true God.

John 1:18 Greek Text Analysis
The Son is Gods first begotten. (His spirit) The firstborn of all creation. The Father is unbegotten.

I agree in part.
Begotten of the Father alone before all things but not made.

I have been reading the recent posts in this thread and I am quite astounded and partly amused by all the so-called Trinitarian reasoning and especially that you Randy would misapply John 17:3 "the only true God" in the above fashion, but you did drop "the only" portion. To me this is an obvious Unitarian statement, and I would use it also against the erroneous doctrine of the Trinity,

John 17:1–3 (KJV):1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: 2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

I suggest that once you get into a blind alley, you should reconsider how you arrived there, and part of this is based upon the erroneous manuscript of John 1:18. Please reconsider the true meaning of John 1:18, and that the begettal is referring to the narrative of the conception, not incarnation in Matthew 1:20-21, Luke 1:34-35.

John 1:18 (KJV): 18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[RandyK]

Why was there a need for the Deity to dwell in Him if He is Deity as is the true God our Father?

Deity had to dwell in Jesus because he was made a human being, capable of being indwelt by God. He was also made capable of inheriting the earth as his rightful possession--as its Creator and Lord.

In Jesus' unique case, not only did God dwell in him, but he was God's Divine Son, created as an expression of Deity in human flesh. In the form of man God inhabited him at the same time as He identified him as His Divine Son.

God can inhabit Christians, as well. But God does not identify us as His Divine sons. The difference is in the revelation of God's Word, which determined that Jeus was the only begotten Son of God, while we are children created to be His only Son's brethren.

 

[Randy]

Deity had to dwell in Jesus because he was made a human being, capable of being indwelt by God. He was also made capable of inheriting the earth as his rightful possession--as its Creator and Lord.

I disagree. The Son who was, His spirit , descended from above and was in that body. The Deity was pleased to dwell in Him at some point in History before the world began. As I asked you what part of Him descended from above and was in that body if not His own spirit. Your foundation is not scripture but Mystery.

He calls the person of the Father the only true God.
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

He is the only begotten God or the only like to like begotten Son of the Father. He is not another God for it was the Fathers Deity in Him and as He taught, they are one.

John 1:18 Greek Text Analysis

In Jesus' unique case, not only did God dwell in him, but he was God's Divine Son, created as an expression of Deity in human flesh. In the form of man God inhabited him at the same time as He identified him as His Divine Son.

He was created or born, or His spirit was formed, as the beginning of the creation of God and the fullness was gifted. He is the firstborn of all creation.

God can inhabit Christians, as well. But God does not identify us as His Divine sons. The difference is in the revelation of God's Word, which determined that Jeus was the only begotten Son of God, while we are children created to be His only Son's brethren.

We have been given fullness in Christ. Jesus was given the fullness of the Deity of the First and Last, God our Father.

Jesus would not have a need to ask and receive from another His own spirit nor speak of His own spirit as another from himself. The Spirit Jesus sends He receives from the Father.

The Fathers promise-"In the last days I will pour out MY spirit.."

And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17;the Spirit of truth

Acts 2
Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear.

As Jesus testified the Father would send the Spirit in His name. Hence the Spirit of Christ.
But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

 

[Randy]

Greetings RandyK and Randy,


I have been reading the recent posts in this thread and I am quite astounded and partly amused by all the so-called Trinitarian reasoning and especially that you Randy would misapply John 17:3 "the only true God" in the above fashion, but you did drop "the only" portion. To me this is an obvious Unitarian statement, and I would use it also against the erroneous doctrine of the Trinity,

John 17:1–3 (KJV):1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: 2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

I suggest that once you get into a blind alley, you should reconsider how you arrived there, and part of this is based upon the erroneous manuscript of John 1:18. Please reconsider the true meaning of John 1:18, and that the begettal is referring to the narrative of the conception, not incarnation in Matthew 1:20-21, Luke 1:34-35.

John 1:18 (KJV): 18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Kind regards
Trevor

John 1:18 has two variants found in the greek manuscripts both the only "begotten" that was from the Fathers presence at that point in history. The Father alone is unbegotten. If Jesus was not the Fathers Son then whose Son was He? How is He a Son of any other if He always was? How is a true God from any other person? True God from True God

I'm not sure what you are stating in regard to the Sons declaration to His God and Father.
Its clear to me but then I prefer truth as given from above rather than doctrines introduced at a much later date.
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

Your belief, "this is eternal life that they know us the only true God"

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Randy,

If Jesus was not the Fathers Son then whose Son was He?

I understand that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God because the One God, Yahweh, God the Father was the father of Jesus in the conception process narrated in Matthew 1:20-21 and Luke 1:34-35.

Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

This proves that Jesus is not God. He is a human, the Son of God. There is only one true God.

Your belief, "this is eternal life that they know us the only true God"

No, that is not my view.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Randy]

Greetings again Randy,

I understand that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God because the One God, Yahweh, God the Father was the father of Jesus in the conception process narrated in Matthew 1:20-21 and Luke 1:34-35.

At the point in time of the in the Fathers presence? John 1:18

This proves that Jesus is not God. He is a human, the Son of God. There is only one true God.

My mistake. I thought you trinitarian. Humans have human Fathers. There must be something your overlooking.

No, that is not my view.

Again, my mistake as I thought you were a trinitarian.

Kind regards
Trevor

You must be the biblical unitarian or hold to their belief that Jesus is a glorified man that began life in Mary's womb. I believe He, His spirit, was formed before all things by His God and Father and in Him was pleased to dwell all the fulness of the Deity of the first and last. That the Son who was, His spirit, descended from above and was in the body prepared for Him as the only eyewitness of the Father that appeared in flesh. We read the Father was living in Him and they are one. We don't read that of any other. And while you don't believe it's quite clear to me that God brought all things into existence through His firstborn.

 

[Randy]

Deity had to dwell in Jesus because he was made a human being, capable of being indwelt by God. He was also made capable of inheriting the earth as his rightful possession--as its Creator and Lord.

Not sure you thought through what you state.
A creation of God and from the will of another. Col 1:19 A other that defined Jesus's being. You believe in a post creation created Christ. You believe the Son of Man is a creation of God as you state human spirit and the fullness was pleased to dwell in Him post creation. I believe He is the beginning of the creation of God as in before all things. So, the Logos ceased to exist and became the Son and remained the Son. Is this what you believe? Wasn't it a bodily resurrection? As in all the fullness dwells in Him bodily. Well, it seems to me you believe in a created Son of Man. You do note He never refers to the Holy Spirit as His God or Father despite Mary conceiving by the HS. 3rd person or the Spirit of the only true God? Those who listen and learn from the Father go to Jesus.
One God the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ. Just 2. To know the only true God and Jesus Christ whom He has sent. Just 2 To Him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb. Just 2

The Father is stated as the true God from whom all things come in the NT and the source true God in the creeds. It's His Deity always. Jesus cannot be the First and Last apart from that Deity.

In Jesus' unique case, not only did God dwell in him, but he was God's Divine Son, created as an expression of Deity in human flesh. In the form of man God inhabited him at the same time as He identified him as His Divine Son.

God can inhabit Christians, as well. But God does not identify us as His Divine sons. The difference is in the revelation of God's Word, which determined that Jeus was the only begotten Son of God, while we are children created to be His only Son's brethren.

 

[Fish153]

Greetings again Randy,

I understand that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God because the One God, Yahweh, God the Father was the father of Jesus in the conception process narrated in Matthew 1:20-21 and Luke 1:34-35.

This proves that Jesus is not God. He is a human, the Son of God. There is only one true God.

No, that is not my view.

Kind regards
Trevor

Trevor---- It is so sad that you say "Jesus is not God". Jesus tells the Pharisees in John 8:24: "I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am (he), ye shall die in your sins".

Later in the same chapter he says: "Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am." (John 8:58)

It is interesting that both of those verses are in the same chapter, to the same people, and follow the same train of thought. Jesus is clearly revealing something to them that they are MISSING--and need to see for their salvation.

Jesus is CLEARLY stating in both places that He is GOD. And he WARNS them in verse 24 that if they do not believe that he is God they will die in their sins!

"In the beginning was the WORD, and the WORD was with GOD, and the WORD was GOD" (John 1:1)

"And the WORD became flesh and dwelt among us..." (John 1:14).

John 1 is VERY CLEARY teaching us that Jesus is GOD. John in 1 John teaches that the one who denies that "Jesus is come in the flesh" (that the WORD was made flesh) is an "anti-christ". It is a sad and dangerous thing to declare that Jesus is not God.

 

[RandyK]

I disagree. The Son who was, His spirit , descended from above and was in that body. The Deity was pleased to dwell in Him at some point in History before the world began. As I asked you what part of Him descended from above and was in that body if not His own spirit. Your foundation is not scripture but Mystery.

I tried at length to explain this to you, from my perspective, but apparently you don't "understand me?" The Spirit of God indwells all men who put their faith in Jesus. And the Spirit of God indwelt Jesus as a man in the same way.

None of this implied anything with respect to Jesus' Divine Nature. By the Word and Revelation of God Jesus appeared *from Eternity,* ie from the Eternal God, to portray that same Eternal God in the form of a man, who happens to also be filled with the Holy Spirit.

As I said before, I don't believe we should conflate the Holy Spirit as a Person of the Trinity with the Spirit of God when referred to as God's Essence, or Constitution. God is spirit, we are told. That is His constitution, His essence, His substance.

But speaking of His Infinite Substance is very different from speaking of His *local operations* via the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is perceived in specific locations, even though He is also of God's Eternal, Infinite Essence.

And being a "local operation" it would be confusing to conflate God's local operations with His Infinite attributes, which include Omnipresence. God as a spirit and God as the Holy Spirit are both realities, but they are distinctly different expressions with their own meanings. One is God's Infinite Constitution, while the other is a Person expressing God in our own finite world.

In other words, "God as spirit" in His Constitution stands apart from the Holy Spirit as God's "local operations." Conflating them creates confusion.

But that's what you're doing. You're describing God's Infinite Constitution as "indwelling Jesus," which sounds irrational. God's Infinite Constitution, or Being, was revealed in the form of Jesus. But it was the Holy Spirit, God's local expression, who indwelt Jesus as a man.

But at this point I'm doubting you understand what I mean. This is becoming an exercise in futility for me?

 

[RandyK]

You believe in a post creation created Christ. You believe the Son of Man is a creation of God as you state human spirit and the fullness was pleased to dwell in Him post creation.

You are using Arian-type arguments, being unable to relate the uncreated to the created. This is typical of all who disbelieve in the Deity of Christ. They not only wish to disbelieve the infinite God can appear in a finite man, but they also wish to disbelieve that God who is holy can change our current sinful lives as they are. It is *disbelief,* plain and simple.

The creative functions of God do not conflict with His eternal nature. He can express things in time that have been true from all eternity. He can express His own Infinite Person, or "Being," in the finite person Jesus, indicating both that Jesus is a created expression in time as well as the uncreated Infinite Person of God from eternity. He is being generated in time *from eternity.*

But you wish to disbelieve this. Oh well... Just don't misrepresent what I believe, please?

 

[Randy]

You are using Arian-type arguments, being unable to relate the uncreated to the created. This is typical of all who disbelieve in the Deity of Christ. They not only wish to disbelieve the infinite God can appear in a finite man, but they also wish to disbelieve that God who is holy can change our current sinful lives as they are. It is *disbelief,* plain and simple.

The creative functions of God do not conflict with His eternal nature. He can express things in time that have been true from all eternity. He can express His own Infinite Person, or "Being," in the finite person Jesus, indicating both that Jesus is a created expression in time as well as the uncreated Infinite Person of God from eternity. He is being generated in time *from eternity.*

But you wish to disbelieve this. Oh well... Just don't misrepresent what I believe, please?

I believe in one true God my Father. He is unbegotten and His Deity is the First and Last. Its His Deity without limit that lives in Jesus from His beginning and forever. They are one.

It's clear to me from what you state about the Son of Man despite your denial you believe in a created Son of Man. Both His spirit and the new creation of the Deity dwelling in Him post creation.

Was the Spirit of the Son of man from above or formed new in Mary's womb?
Thats who was in that body -"Father into your hands I commit my spirit"
And you believe COL 1:19 is a post creation creation of God for it defines and is part of the being of the Son you believe in not the Logos from the beginning which you state has no beginning.

Arius may have reasoned if the Son is begotten of the Father He has a beginning. Other than that, I don't know much of all of His beliefs. If you can show where I have quoted Arius please do. I assure you my understanding is from the NT and above.