The Oneness of God.......

[JLB]

Greetings again JLB,

But David, when he alludes to, quotes, and comments on the creation of man indicates that The Angels are included in the plurality of Elohim and Yahweh is thus speaking to the Angels, the "us" and "our" in Genesis 1:26, who are his ministers or servants in this creation process, while Yahweh is the "he" of Genesis 1:27, the overall Creator, the Master Designer and Power, as also revealed in Psalm 8:1-3. Man was made a little lower than the Angels, and now suffer death as a result of sin, but in the resurrection the faithful will be made equal unto the Angels.

Kind regards
Trevor

O LORD, our Lord,
How excellent is Your name in all the earth,
Who have set Your glory above the heavens!
Out of the mouth of babes and nursing infants
You have ordained strength,
Because of Your enemies,
That You may silence the enemy and the avenger.
When I consider Your heavens, the work of Your fingers,
The moon and the stars, which You have ordained,
Psalm 8:1-3

Where is angels co-creating the heavens and the earth or creating man mentioned here?

 

[reddogs]

Greetings reddogs,

No. God is one, not three.

Kind regards
Trevor

The GodHead is a mystery which we will have to study for eternity to comprehend..

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again reddogs,

The GodHead is a mystery which we will have to study for eternity to comprehend..

The One God, Yahweh, God the Father has sufficiently revealed Himself.
John 17:3 (KJV): And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

You seem to be alluding to the religion of modern Babylon, based on 3rd and 4th Century Greek Philosophy.
Revelation 17:5 (KJV): And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, ...

I find it surprising that the SDA's adopted Trinitarianism, and some say that it became their official position only when they wanted to join the World Council of Churches in 1954.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Free]

Greetings again reddogs,

The One God, Yahweh, God the Father has sufficiently revealed Himself.
John 17:3 (KJV): And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Once again, you're ignoring the context. First, "this is eternal life, that they know you, . . . , and Jesus Christ." That is, eternal life isn't in just knowing the Father. Second, that Jesus says the Father, who is in heaven, is the only true God, does not preclude the Son from also being the only true God. We know that from additional context:

Joh 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed. (ESV)

Jesus pre-existed for all eternity, prior to creation, with the Father (and the Holy Spirit), which means the Son is also God in nature. You cannot simply continue to ignore such significant context and think that you know what Jesus said in verse 3.

You seem to be alluding to the religion of modern Babylon, based on 3rd and 4th Century Greek Philosophy.
Revelation 17:5 (KJV): And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, ...

That is not at all relevant to the mystery of the Trinity, or the mystery of the incarnation, or any other mystery regarding God. If you can fully comprehend the God, then he is a god of your own making. Besides, it isn't known whether "mystery" belongs to the title or what comes before:

Rev 17:5 and on her forehead a name was written, a mystery, "BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH." (NASB)

Rev 17:5 And on her forehead was written a name of mystery: “Babylon the great, mother of prostitutes and of earth's abominations.” (ESV)

Rev 17:5 The name written on her forehead was a mystery: BABYLON THE GREAT THE MOTHER OF PROSTITUTES AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. (NIV)

Rev 17:5 and on her forehead was written a name, a mystery: "Babylon the great, mother of whores and of earth's abominations." (NRSV)

Rev 17:5 On her forehead a cryptic name was written: BABYLON THE GREAT THE MOTHER OF PROSTITUTES AND OF THE VILE THINGS OF THE EARTH. (HCSB)

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings Free,

Once again, you're ignoring the context. First, "this is eternal life, that they know you, . . . , and Jesus Christ." That is, eternal life isn't in just knowing the Father.

I am very conscious of the position of Jesus, the Son of God as Saviour. I consider that I gave a reasonable response to what reddogs stated.

Second, that Jesus says the Father, who is in heaven, is the only true God, does not preclude the Son from also being the only true God. We know that from additional context:
Joh 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed. (ESV)

I consider that Jesus is alluding to the glory which Yahweh anticipated in the following, which God foresaw before the creation.
Psalm 8:4–6 (KJV): 4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Free]

I am very conscious of the position of Jesus, the Son of God as Saviour. I consider that I gave a reasonable response to what reddogs stated.

Right, but your use of John 17:3 ignores that eternal life isn't only in believing in God the Father, but also believing in Jesus.

I consider that Jesus is alluding to the glory which Yahweh anticipated in the following, which God foresaw before the creation.
Psalm 8:4–6 (KJV): 4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:

What do you mean by "Jesus is alluding to the glory which Yahweh anticipated in the following, which God foresaw before the creation"?

Jesus is claiming to have already literally shared in the glory of the Father prior to creation. That can only mean that the Son has existed for as long as the Father has existed. That is perfectly consistent with all that John states about Jesus, beginning in 1:1 through to the end of the gospel.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Free,

Right, but your use of John 17:3 ignores that eternal life isn't only in believing in God the Father, but also believing in Jesus.

I am not sure why you persist here as I have clearly stated that Jesus is our Saviour, He is the specially raised and chosen vessel through whom the One God, Yahweh, God the Father has accomplished salvation. This is the very meaning of the Name Jesus:
Matthew 1:20–21 (KJV): 20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. 21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS (Yah's Salvation): for he shall save his people from their sins.

There are many verses which I could quote to show that salvation and eternal life is by faith in what was achieved in the sufferings, crucifixion, death and resurrection of Jesus:

John 3:16 (KJV): For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Romans 3:21–26 (KJV): 21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

But you complain that I only emphasised the first part of John 17:3, but the reason why I did this was in response to @reddoggs answer to my post:

No. God is one, not three.

The GodHead is a mystery which we will have to study for eternity to comprehend..

My deduction from this is that reddogs is alluding to the Trinity and the three persons who are considered to be part of the Trinity. He uses the word "Godhead" and he could be alluding to the language and ideas of the Athanasian Creed:
For there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son; and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one; the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is; such is the Son; and such is the Holy Ghost.

He also uses the word "mystery" and this is a very poor explanation of the many inconsistencies and contradictions and impossibilities contained in the concept of the Trinity.

Evidently this is a sixth century creed and promulgated by the corrupt Catholic Church. I do not usually use the word "Godhead", but if I did I would attribute this title to the One God, Yahweh, God the Father only. The head of Jesus, the Son of God, is God the Father:
1 Corinthians 11:3 (KJV): But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

What do you mean by "Jesus is alluding to the glory which Yahweh anticipated in the following, which God foresaw before the creation"?

Yes, although Psalm 8 is a Psalm of David, I consider that David reveals God's thoughts concerning both the Genesis Creation and the New Creation in Christ. These thoughts go back to before the creation:
John 17:5 (KJV): And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
God foresaw the fall of Adam, and the need to accomplish his ultimate purpose in filling the earth with his glory would necessitate the raising up of a Son of Man, that is a descendant of Adam, who would conquer sin and all its effects, and would then be exalted to glory and honour and rule over the New Creation:
Psalm 8:4–6 (KJV): 4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:

Psalm 80:17 (KJV): Let thy hand be upon the man of thy right hand, upon the son of man whom thou madest strong for thyself.

Jesus in John 17:3 is calling upon this promise to be fulfilled, with the assurance of faith and trust in God's word, that despite the great trials and sufferings he was about to endure, that he would come out of these trials and be resurrected to glory.
Hebrews 12:2 (KJV): Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Free]

Greetings again Free,

I am not sure why you persist here as I have clearly stated that Jesus is our Saviour, He is the specially raised and chosen vessel through whom the One God, Yahweh, God the Father has accomplished salvation. This is the very meaning of the Name Jesus:
Matthew 1:20–21 (KJV): 20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. 21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS (Yah's Salvation): for he shall save his people from their sins.

There are many verses which I could quote to show that salvation and eternal life is by faith in what was achieved in the sufferings, crucifixion, death and resurrection of Jesus:

John 3:16 (KJV): For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Romans 3:21–26 (KJV): 21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

But you complain that I only emphasised the first part of John 17:3, but the reason why I did this was in response to @reddoggs answer to my post:

Fair enough. Whose blood was it that secured our salvation: Jesus's or God's?

Act 20:28 Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood. (ESV)

My deduction from this is that reddogs is alluding to the Trinity and the three persons who are considered to be part of the Trinity. He uses the word "Godhead" and he could be alluding to the language and ideas of the Athanasian Creed:
For there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son; and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one; the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is; such is the Son; and such is the Holy Ghost.

He also uses the word "mystery" and this is a very poor explanation of the many inconsistencies and contradictions and impossibilities contained in the concept of the Trinity.

Yet, you and every other anti-Trinitarian has failed to show any contradiction or impossibility with the doctrine of the Trinity. On the other hand, though, I have shown several "inconsistencies and contradictions and impossibilities contained in the concept of" a unitarian (uni-personal) view of God that no anti-Trinitarian has been able to resolve.

Evidently this is a sixth century creed and promulgated by the corrupt Catholic Church. I do not usually use the word "Godhead", but if I did I would attribute this title to the One God, Yahweh, God the Father only. The head of Jesus, the Son of God, is God the Father:
1 Corinthians 11:3 (KJV): But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

Yet, that does not mean that Jesus isn't also truly God. Several times Paul strongly implies that Jesus is truly God, as well as being truly man.

Yes, although Psalm 8 is a Psalm of David, I consider that David reveals God's thoughts concerning both the Genesis Creation and the New Creation in Christ. These thoughts go back to before the creation:
John 17:5 (KJV): And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
God foresaw the fall of Adam, and the need to accomplish his ultimate purpose in filling the earth with his glory would necessitate the raising up of a Son of Man, that is a descendant of Adam, who would conquer sin and all its effects, and would then be exalted to glory and honour and rule over the New Creation:
Psalm 8:4–6 (KJV): 4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:

Psalm 80:17 (KJV): Let thy hand be upon the man of thy right hand, upon the son of man whom thou madest strong for thyself.

That is really convoluted and doesn't explain anything. Jesus literally claimed to exist with the Father, sharing in his glory, prior to creation. That has nothing to do with Ps. 8:4-6 or 80:17.

Jesus in John 17:3 is calling upon this promise to be fulfilled, with the assurance of faith and trust in God's word, that despite the great trials and sufferings he was about to endure, that he would come out of these trials and be resurrected to glory.
Hebrews 12:2 (KJV): Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

You must have meant John 17:5 here. No, Jesus was not solely looking to a future glory after resurrection. There was that, but he was looking to return to the glory that he had prior to the incarnation:

Joh 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed. (ESV)

Past tense. Jesus is clearly speaking of a time when he existed, as the Son, prior to creation with the Father. This is exactly what John states in 1:1. Jesus repeatedly states that he came "down from heaven" (John 6:33, 38, 50-51, for example), by which he can only mean that he pre-existed and came "down from heaven." Then, he says he will return to heaven. This is from start to finish in John's gospel, culminating in Thomas's declaration that Jesus is his Lord and his God; which can only mean Jesus himself.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Free,

Whose blood was it that secured our salvation: Jesus's or God's?
Act 20:28 Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood. (ESV)

God the Father does not have blood. He is a Spirit Being. This shows the richness and beauty of the Biblical language. It is like poetry, where a slight change in a word or concept conveys a wealth of meaning. This verse indicates the intimate relationship and feeling that God had for his beloved son during the trials and sufferings that Jesus had to endure. God was not indifferent, he was not angry with Jesus as the subsitutionary view of the atonement would represent, but God was with Jesus every step of the way in loving kindness, and perhaps quickened his death before he was speared. Possibly weeping, and saying, "It is enough".
John 3:16 (KJV): 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Yet, you and every other anti-Trinitarian has failed to show any contradiction or impossibility with the doctrine of the Trinity.

Jesus is the Only Begotten Son of the Father. When did this begettal occur?

Joh 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed. (ESV)
Past tense.

Yes, past tense, the same as in Psalm 8.
Psalm 8:4–6 (KJV): 4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:

Hebrews 2:6–9 (KJV): 6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? 7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: 8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him. 9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

This appears to be what is called the prophetic past and we find the same type of occurrence in
Psalm 110:1 (KJV): The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
It does not say, Yahweh will say, but Yahweh said. This appears to be again the richness and beauty of the word of God, and could be of the same genre as the following:
Romans 4:17 (KJV): (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Free]

Greetings again Free,

God the Father does not have blood. He is a Spirit Being.

Yes, exactly! So, what is the only option then? That Jesus was also truly God. It fits perfectly and is the consistent message of the NT.

This shows the richness and beauty of the Biblical language. It is like poetry, where a slight change in a word or concept conveys a wealth of meaning. This verse indicates the intimate relationship and feeling that God had for his beloved son during the trials and sufferings that Jesus had to endure. God was not indifferent, he was not angry with Jesus as the subsitutionary view of the atonement would represent, but God was with Jesus every step of the way in loving kindness, and perhaps quickened his death before he was speared. Possibly weeping, and saying, "It is enough".
John 3:16 (KJV): 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

This is dodging the clear statement made by Paul, namely, that God "obtained" the church "with his own blood." If "his own blood" doesn't actually mean "his own blood," then it is a meaningless claim by Paul.

Jesus is the Only Begotten Son of the Father. When did this begettal occur?

In eternity, such that his is an eternal begetting. It cannot be otherwise because of what is stated in the numerous texts I have previously provided (John 1:1-3, 10; 3:13, 31; 5:18; 6:33, 38, 50-51; 8:23, 58; 13:3; 16:27-30; 17:5; 20:28; 1 Cor. 8:6; Phil. 2:5-8; Col. 1:16-17; Heb. 1:2, 10-12; etc.)

Yes, past tense, the same as in Psalm 8.
Psalm 8:4–6 (KJV): 4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:

Hebrews 2:6–9 (KJV): 6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? 7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: 8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him. 9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

This appears to be what is called the prophetic past and we find the same type of occurrence in
Psalm 110:1 (KJV): The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
It does not say, Yahweh will say, but Yahweh said. This appears to be again the richness and beauty of the word of God, and could be of the same genre as the following:
Romans 4:17 (KJV): (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

I don't see how any of this address the fact that Jesus claimed to have been in existence with the Father, sharing in his glory, prior to creation. Again, this is a consistent message from John 1:1 right through to the end of his gospel. It is also seen throughout the rest of the NT.

It's notable that you must necessarily go through all manner of theological and biblical gymnastics to avoid plain, clear statements of Scripture, but it's because they contradict your beliefs. That's a significant issue.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Free,

Yes, exactly! So, what is the only option then? That Jesus was also truly God. It fits perfectly and is the consistent message of the NT.

I am not sure how you deduct this. Jesus is a human being and God the Father is a Spirit Being. They are distinct beings. I prefer my explanation. Another perspective is that Jesus is an extension, the fulfillment of the Yahweh Name.

In eternity, such that his is an eternal begetting. It cannot be otherwise

If you can make sense of such a contradictory concept I will leave it with you. I understand the begettal refers to the begettal recorded in Matthew 1:20-21, Luke 1:34-35.

I don't see how any of this address the fact that Jesus claimed to have been in existence with the Father, sharing in his glory, prior to creation.

Again, I prefer my explanation. To avoid repetition I see the need to move on.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Randy]

The GodHead is a mystery which we will have to study for eternity to comprehend..

I think you mean the doctrine of the Trinity has a foundation of mystery.

To Him who sits on the throne and the lamb is easy to understand. That is the throne of God and of the lamb forever.

Rev 22:3
No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him.

 

[Free]

I am not sure how you deduct this.

Not sure? It is a very clear, logical deduction.

Jesus is a human being

Again, at the very beginning of his gospel, John shows that Jesus is not merely a human being. That is his whole point in his prologue. That Jesus is truly human and truly God is throughout the NT, as I have sufficiently shown.

and God the Father is a Spirit Being. They are distinct beings.

They are distinct persons.

I prefer my explanation.

Of course you do, but it needlessly complicates a simple, clear statement by Paul--that God obtained the church "with his own blood." It either means exactly that, or we cannot know what is being said.

Another perspective is that Jesus is an extension, the fulfillment of the Yahweh Name.

But, that still doesn't make sense of the simple, clear statement by Paul.

If you can make sense of such a contradictory concept I will leave it with you.

But, based on the large amount of evidence I have given, all based on straightforward, clear claims in Scripture, there is no contradiction. Jesus is both truly man and truly God, therefore, it is true that God obtained the church "with his own blood."

Is it difficult to comprehend? Of course, but that doesn't make it contradictory. We must stick to what the Bible clearly states. And what it states is that the Son has existed for as long as the Father has always existed, yet he is the Son, not the Father. So, fathers always precede their sons (it cannot be otherwise), but sons are always of the same nature as their fathers (it cannot be otherwise). If the Son is of the same nature as the Father, and he is, then it necessarily follows that he has also always existed.

I understand the begettal refers to the begettal recorded in Matthew 1:20-21, Luke 1:34-35.

No, those have nothing to do with it, since Jesus himself claims to have existed prior to his birth. And, again, you're ignoring context:

Mat 1:23 “Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall call his name Immanuel” (which means, God with us). (ESV)

Again, I prefer my explanation.

You always do, as everyone does, but you continually ignore numerous passages and arguments that show your position and explanations are highly problematic, even impossible. As with all anti-Trinitarian, unitarian views of God, you sacrifice all the passages which clearly show Jesus's deity on the altar of those which clearly show his humanity, without any basis whatsoever for doing so.

But, both must be taken together without one overriding or doing away with the other. You'll notice that Trinitarians don't take those passages which speak clearly of Jesus's deity and ignore those which speak of his humanity. To do so would lead one into heresy, just as by ignoring that speak clearly of his deity.

To avoid repetition I see the need to move on.

It wouldn't be so repetitive if you actually addressed things and addressed them thoroughly without needlessly complicating what a verse or passage is saying.

 

[donadams]

Greetings reddogs,

No. God is one, not three.

Kind regards
Trevor

He did not say three God's
but one God (nature or essence deut 6:4) in three persons

thks

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings donadams,

He did not say three God's but one God (nature or essence deut 6:4) in three persons

I am aware that reddogs was advocating the Trinity, and I posted the following:

My deduction from this is that @reddogs is alluding to the Trinity and the three persons who are considered to be part of the Trinity. He uses the word "Godhead" and he could be alluding to the language and ideas of the Athanasian Creed:
For there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son; and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one; the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is; such is the Son; and such is the Holy Ghost.

The following is another portion of the Athanasian Creed, and I am not sure if reddogs would fully support the opening and closing statements concerning the Catholic Church.
Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith unless every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the catholic faith is this: that we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Essence.
This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved.

one God (nature or essence deut 6:4) in three persons

I am very reticent to endorse your view of Deuteronomy 6:4.
Deuteronomy 6:4–5 (KJV): 4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: 5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
There is no mention of the Trinity here, but it states that there is one Yahweh, and this is the One God, Yahweh, God the Father.

Deuteronomy 6:4-5 is quoted in the following:
Mark 12:28–34 (KJV): 28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? 29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: 30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. 31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these. 32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: 33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices. 34 And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.

At the end of this conversation did the scribe believe in the Trinity?

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[donadams]

Greetings donadams,

I am aware that reddogs was advocating the Trinity, and I posted the following:

The following is another portion of the Athanasian Creed, and I am not sure if reddogs would fully support the opening and closing statements concerning the Catholic Church.
Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith unless every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the catholic faith is this: that we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Essence.
This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved.

I am very reticent to endorse your view of Deuteronomy 6:4.
Deuteronomy 6:4–5 (KJV): 4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: 5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
There is no mention of the Trinity here, but it states that there is one Yahweh, and this is the One God, Yahweh, God the Father.

Deuteronomy 6:4-5 is quoted in the following:
Mark 12:28–34 (KJV): 28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? 29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: 30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. 31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these. 32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: 33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices. 34 And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.

At the end of this conversation did the scribe believe in the Trinity?

Kind regards
Trevor

I whole heartedly agree and praise the great Athanasian Creed!

Deut 6 refers to the nature and essence of God not person or persons

but the trinity was hid in the old testament!

Mystery of the most holy Trinity!

Romans 16:25
Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

1. 
   Ephesians 3:4
   Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mysteryof Christ)
   Eph 3:9
2. And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Most Holy Trinity!

Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord God is the Lord of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory. Isa 6:3


One God, 3 Persons- The Father, Son and Holy Spirit all each called God


All called God
The Father- Psalm 89:26, 1Corinthians 8:6, Galalatians 1:1, Colossians 1:3
The Son- 1 Timothy 1:16-17,John 20:28,Titus 2:13, 2 Peter 1:1, 1 John 5:20
The Holy Spirit- Acts 5:3-4, Acts 28:25, cf Isaiah 6:8

All Creator
The Father- Isaiah 44:24, 1 Corinthians 8:6
The Son - Colossians 1:16; John 1:3
The Holy Spirit- Job 33:4, Psalms 104:30, Genesis 1:2

All Raised Jesus
The Father- 1 Thessalonians 1:9-10
The Son- John 2:19-21
The Holy Spirit- Romans 8:11

All Eternal
The Father- Psalm 93:2
The Son- Jesus Isaiah 9:6
The Holy Spirit- Hebrews 9:14

All Omniscient
The Father- Psalm 147:5
The Son -John 2:24-25
The Holy Spirit- Isaiah 40:13-14

All Omnipresent
The Father- Jeremiah 23:24
The Son - Matthew 28:18:20
The Holy Spirit- Psalm 139:7-10

All Omnipotent
The Father- Revelation 4:8
The Son- Matthew 28:18, Revelation 5:13
The Holy Spirit- Romans 15:19

thks

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again donadams,

Deut 6 refers to the nature and essence of God not person or persons

I disagree and suggest that the following shows that Deuteronomy 6:4 is speaking about the One Being, the One Person, Yahweh, The singular "I" of Exodus 3:14.
Mark 12:28–34 (KJV): 28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? 29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: 30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. 31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these. 32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: 33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices. 34 And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Free]

Greetings again donadams,

I disagree and suggest that the following shows that Deuteronomy 6:4 is speaking about the One Being, the One Person, Yahweh, The singular "I" of Exodus 3:14.

It is, but you're equating "being" with "person." We must recognize that when "person" is used of God, it is merely the closest human approximation we have. God is one being, Yahweh, 'The singular "I" of Exodus 3:14,' but he is not one person. And Deut. 6:4 allows for God to be more than one person.

Mark 12:28–34 (KJV): 28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? 29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: 30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. 31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these. 32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: 33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices. 34 And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.

Kind regards
Trevor

Paul's expansion on the Shema:

1Co 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist. (ESV)

As I have said many times before, if the Father alone is God, then it necessarily follows that Jesus (the Son) alone is Lord. But that would contradict what you have just given from Mark. Also, if "from whom are all things" speaks of the eternal nature of the Father, then it necessarily follows that "through whom are all things" speaks of the eternal nature of the Son. It cannot be otherwise.

 

[donadams]

Greetings again donadams,

I disagree and suggest that the following shows that Deuteronomy 6:4 is speaking about the One Being, the One Person, Yahweh, The singular "I" of Exodus 3:14.
Mark 12:28–34 (KJV): 28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? 29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: 30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. 31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these. 32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: 33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices. 34 And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.

Kind regards
Trevor

thanks

the father is God
the son is God
the spirit is God

not three God's but one God

the father is Lord
the son is Lord
the spirit is Lord

not three Lords but one Lord

the father is creator
the son is creator
the spirit is creator

not three creators but one creator

the mystery of the holy trinity!

 

[donadams]

It is, but you're equating "being" with "person." We must recognize that when "person" is used of God, it is merely the closest human approximation we have. God is one being, Yahweh, 'The singular "I" of Exodus 3:14,' but he is not one person. And Deut. 6:4 allows for God to be more than one person.


Paul's expansion on the Shema:

1Co 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist. (ESV)

As I have said many times before, if the Father alone is God, then it necessarily follows that Jesus (the Son) alone is Lord. But that would contradict what you have just given from Mark. Also, if "from whom are all things" speaks of the eternal nature of the Father, then it necessarily follows that "through whom are all things" speaks of the eternal nature of the Son. It cannot be otherwise.

well put!

the JW says the word of God is not God and I conclude then the mind of God is not God and it would fallow that God is not God!

(the word being conceived in the mind)

thks