The Oneness of God.......

[JLB]

Greetings again JLB,

But David, when he alludes to, quotes, and comments on the creation of man indicates that The Angels are included in the plurality of Elohim and Yahweh is thus speaking to the Angels, the "us" and "our" in Genesis 1:26, who are his ministers or servants in this creation process, while Yahweh is the "he" of Genesis 1:27, the overall Creator, the Master Designer and Power, as also revealed in Psalm 8:1-3. Man was made a little lower than the Angels, and now suffer death as a result of sin, but in the resurrection the faithful will be made equal unto the Angels.

Kind regards
Trevor

O LORD, our Lord,
How excellent is Your name in all the earth,
Who have set Your glory above the heavens!
Out of the mouth of babes and nursing infants
You have ordained strength,
Because of Your enemies,
That You may silence the enemy and the avenger.
When I consider Your heavens, the work of Your fingers,
The moon and the stars, which You have ordained,
Psalm 8:1-3

Where is angels co-creating the heavens and the earth or creating man mentioned here?

 

[reddogs]

Greetings reddogs,

No. God is one, not three.

Kind regards
Trevor

The GodHead is a mystery which we will have to study for eternity to comprehend..

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again reddogs,

The GodHead is a mystery which we will have to study for eternity to comprehend..

The One God, Yahweh, God the Father has sufficiently revealed Himself.
John 17:3 (KJV): And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

You seem to be alluding to the religion of modern Babylon, based on 3rd and 4th Century Greek Philosophy.
Revelation 17:5 (KJV): And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, ...

I find it surprising that the SDA's adopted Trinitarianism, and some say that it became their official position only when they wanted to join the World Council of Churches in 1954.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Free]

Greetings again reddogs,

The One God, Yahweh, God the Father has sufficiently revealed Himself.
John 17:3 (KJV): And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Once again, you're ignoring the context. First, "this is eternal life, that they know you, . . . , and Jesus Christ." That is, eternal life isn't in just knowing the Father. Second, that Jesus says the Father, who is in heaven, is the only true God, does not preclude the Son from also being the only true God. We know that from additional context:

Joh 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed. (ESV)

Jesus pre-existed for all eternity, prior to creation, with the Father (and the Holy Spirit), which means the Son is also God in nature. You cannot simply continue to ignore such significant context and think that you know what Jesus said in verse 3.

You seem to be alluding to the religion of modern Babylon, based on 3rd and 4th Century Greek Philosophy.
Revelation 17:5 (KJV): And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, ...

That is not at all relevant to the mystery of the Trinity, or the mystery of the incarnation, or any other mystery regarding God. If you can fully comprehend the God, then he is a god of your own making. Besides, it isn't known whether "mystery" belongs to the title or what comes before:

Rev 17:5 and on her forehead a name was written, a mystery, "BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH." (NASB)

Rev 17:5 And on her forehead was written a name of mystery: “Babylon the great, mother of prostitutes and of earth's abominations.” (ESV)

Rev 17:5 The name written on her forehead was a mystery: BABYLON THE GREAT THE MOTHER OF PROSTITUTES AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. (NIV)

Rev 17:5 and on her forehead was written a name, a mystery: "Babylon the great, mother of whores and of earth's abominations." (NRSV)

Rev 17:5 On her forehead a cryptic name was written: BABYLON THE GREAT THE MOTHER OF PROSTITUTES AND OF THE VILE THINGS OF THE EARTH. (HCSB)

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings Free,

Once again, you're ignoring the context. First, "this is eternal life, that they know you, . . . , and Jesus Christ." That is, eternal life isn't in just knowing the Father.

I am very conscious of the position of Jesus, the Son of God as Saviour. I consider that I gave a reasonable response to what reddogs stated.

Second, that Jesus says the Father, who is in heaven, is the only true God, does not preclude the Son from also being the only true God. We know that from additional context:
Joh 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed. (ESV)

I consider that Jesus is alluding to the glory which Yahweh anticipated in the following, which God foresaw before the creation.
Psalm 8:4–6 (KJV): 4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Free]

I am very conscious of the position of Jesus, the Son of God as Saviour. I consider that I gave a reasonable response to what reddogs stated.

Right, but your use of John 17:3 ignores that eternal life isn't only in believing in God the Father, but also believing in Jesus.

I consider that Jesus is alluding to the glory which Yahweh anticipated in the following, which God foresaw before the creation.
Psalm 8:4–6 (KJV): 4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:

What do you mean by "Jesus is alluding to the glory which Yahweh anticipated in the following, which God foresaw before the creation"?

Jesus is claiming to have already literally shared in the glory of the Father prior to creation. That can only mean that the Son has existed for as long as the Father has existed. That is perfectly consistent with all that John states about Jesus, beginning in 1:1 through to the end of the gospel.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Free,

Right, but your use of John 17:3 ignores that eternal life isn't only in believing in God the Father, but also believing in Jesus.

I am not sure why you persist here as I have clearly stated that Jesus is our Saviour, He is the specially raised and chosen vessel through whom the One God, Yahweh, God the Father has accomplished salvation. This is the very meaning of the Name Jesus:
Matthew 1:20–21 (KJV): 20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. 21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS (Yah's Salvation): for he shall save his people from their sins.

There are many verses which I could quote to show that salvation and eternal life is by faith in what was achieved in the sufferings, crucifixion, death and resurrection of Jesus:

John 3:16 (KJV): For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Romans 3:21–26 (KJV): 21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

But you complain that I only emphasised the first part of John 17:3, but the reason why I did this was in response to @reddoggs answer to my post:

No. God is one, not three.

The GodHead is a mystery which we will have to study for eternity to comprehend..

My deduction from this is that reddogs is alluding to the Trinity and the three persons who are considered to be part of the Trinity. He uses the word "Godhead" and he could be alluding to the language and ideas of the Athanasian Creed:
For there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son; and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one; the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is; such is the Son; and such is the Holy Ghost.

He also uses the word "mystery" and this is a very poor explanation of the many inconsistencies and contradictions and impossibilities contained in the concept of the Trinity.

Evidently this is a sixth century creed and promulgated by the corrupt Catholic Church. I do not usually use the word "Godhead", but if I did I would attribute this title to the One God, Yahweh, God the Father only. The head of Jesus, the Son of God, is God the Father:
1 Corinthians 11:3 (KJV): But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

What do you mean by "Jesus is alluding to the glory which Yahweh anticipated in the following, which God foresaw before the creation"?

Yes, although Psalm 8 is a Psalm of David, I consider that David reveals God's thoughts concerning both the Genesis Creation and the New Creation in Christ. These thoughts go back to before the creation:
John 17:5 (KJV): And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
God foresaw the fall of Adam, and the need to accomplish his ultimate purpose in filling the earth with his glory would necessitate the raising up of a Son of Man, that is a descendant of Adam, who would conquer sin and all its effects, and would then be exalted to glory and honour and rule over the New Creation:
Psalm 8:4–6 (KJV): 4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:

Psalm 80:17 (KJV): Let thy hand be upon the man of thy right hand, upon the son of man whom thou madest strong for thyself.

Jesus in John 17:3 is calling upon this promise to be fulfilled, with the assurance of faith and trust in God's word, that despite the great trials and sufferings he was about to endure, that he would come out of these trials and be resurrected to glory.
Hebrews 12:2 (KJV): Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Free]

Greetings again Free,

I am not sure why you persist here as I have clearly stated that Jesus is our Saviour, He is the specially raised and chosen vessel through whom the One God, Yahweh, God the Father has accomplished salvation. This is the very meaning of the Name Jesus:
Matthew 1:20–21 (KJV): 20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. 21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS (Yah's Salvation): for he shall save his people from their sins.

There are many verses which I could quote to show that salvation and eternal life is by faith in what was achieved in the sufferings, crucifixion, death and resurrection of Jesus:

John 3:16 (KJV): For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Romans 3:21–26 (KJV): 21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

But you complain that I only emphasised the first part of John 17:3, but the reason why I did this was in response to @reddoggs answer to my post:

Fair enough. Whose blood was it that secured our salvation: Jesus's or God's?

Act 20:28 Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood. (ESV)

My deduction from this is that reddogs is alluding to the Trinity and the three persons who are considered to be part of the Trinity. He uses the word "Godhead" and he could be alluding to the language and ideas of the Athanasian Creed:
For there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son; and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one; the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is; such is the Son; and such is the Holy Ghost.

He also uses the word "mystery" and this is a very poor explanation of the many inconsistencies and contradictions and impossibilities contained in the concept of the Trinity.

Yet, you and every other anti-Trinitarian has failed to show any contradiction or impossibility with the doctrine of the Trinity. On the other hand, though, I have shown several "inconsistencies and contradictions and impossibilities contained in the concept of" a unitarian (uni-personal) view of God that no anti-Trinitarian has been able to resolve.

Evidently this is a sixth century creed and promulgated by the corrupt Catholic Church. I do not usually use the word "Godhead", but if I did I would attribute this title to the One God, Yahweh, God the Father only. The head of Jesus, the Son of God, is God the Father:
1 Corinthians 11:3 (KJV): But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

Yet, that does not mean that Jesus isn't also truly God. Several times Paul strongly implies that Jesus is truly God, as well as being truly man.

Yes, although Psalm 8 is a Psalm of David, I consider that David reveals God's thoughts concerning both the Genesis Creation and the New Creation in Christ. These thoughts go back to before the creation:
John 17:5 (KJV): And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
God foresaw the fall of Adam, and the need to accomplish his ultimate purpose in filling the earth with his glory would necessitate the raising up of a Son of Man, that is a descendant of Adam, who would conquer sin and all its effects, and would then be exalted to glory and honour and rule over the New Creation:
Psalm 8:4–6 (KJV): 4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:

Psalm 80:17 (KJV): Let thy hand be upon the man of thy right hand, upon the son of man whom thou madest strong for thyself.

That is really convoluted and doesn't explain anything. Jesus literally claimed to exist with the Father, sharing in his glory, prior to creation. That has nothing to do with Ps. 8:4-6 or 80:17.

Jesus in John 17:3 is calling upon this promise to be fulfilled, with the assurance of faith and trust in God's word, that despite the great trials and sufferings he was about to endure, that he would come out of these trials and be resurrected to glory.
Hebrews 12:2 (KJV): Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

You must have meant John 17:5 here. No, Jesus was not solely looking to a future glory after resurrection. There was that, but he was looking to return to the glory that he had prior to the incarnation:

Joh 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed. (ESV)

Past tense. Jesus is clearly speaking of a time when he existed, as the Son, prior to creation with the Father. This is exactly what John states in 1:1. Jesus repeatedly states that he came "down from heaven" (John 6:33, 38, 50-51, for example), by which he can only mean that he pre-existed and came "down from heaven." Then, he says he will return to heaven. This is from start to finish in John's gospel, culminating in Thomas's declaration that Jesus is his Lord and his God; which can only mean Jesus himself.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Free,

Whose blood was it that secured our salvation: Jesus's or God's?
Act 20:28 Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood. (ESV)

God the Father does not have blood. He is a Spirit Being. This shows the richness and beauty of the Biblical language. It is like poetry, where a slight change in a word or concept conveys a wealth of meaning. This verse indicates the intimate relationship and feeling that God had for his beloved son during the trials and sufferings that Jesus had to endure. God was not indifferent, he was not angry with Jesus as the subsitutionary view of the atonement would represent, but God was with Jesus every step of the way in loving kindness, and perhaps quickened his death before he was speared. Possibly weeping, and saying, "It is enough".
John 3:16 (KJV): 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Yet, you and every other anti-Trinitarian has failed to show any contradiction or impossibility with the doctrine of the Trinity.

Jesus is the Only Begotten Son of the Father. When did this begettal occur?

Joh 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed. (ESV)
Past tense.

Yes, past tense, the same as in Psalm 8.
Psalm 8:4–6 (KJV): 4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:

Hebrews 2:6–9 (KJV): 6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? 7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: 8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him. 9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

This appears to be what is called the prophetic past and we find the same type of occurrence in
Psalm 110:1 (KJV): The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
It does not say, Yahweh will say, but Yahweh said. This appears to be again the richness and beauty of the word of God, and could be of the same genre as the following:
Romans 4:17 (KJV): (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Free]

Greetings again Free,

God the Father does not have blood. He is a Spirit Being.

Yes, exactly! So, what is the only option then? That Jesus was also truly God. It fits perfectly and is the consistent message of the NT.

This shows the richness and beauty of the Biblical language. It is like poetry, where a slight change in a word or concept conveys a wealth of meaning. This verse indicates the intimate relationship and feeling that God had for his beloved son during the trials and sufferings that Jesus had to endure. God was not indifferent, he was not angry with Jesus as the subsitutionary view of the atonement would represent, but God was with Jesus every step of the way in loving kindness, and perhaps quickened his death before he was speared. Possibly weeping, and saying, "It is enough".
John 3:16 (KJV): 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

This is dodging the clear statement made by Paul, namely, that God "obtained" the church "with his own blood." If "his own blood" doesn't actually mean "his own blood," then it is a meaningless claim by Paul.

Jesus is the Only Begotten Son of the Father. When did this begettal occur?

In eternity, such that his is an eternal begetting. It cannot be otherwise because of what is stated in the numerous texts I have previously provided (John 1:1-3, 10; 3:13, 31; 5:18; 6:33, 38, 50-51; 8:23, 58; 13:3; 16:27-30; 17:5; 20:28; 1 Cor. 8:6; Phil. 2:5-8; Col. 1:16-17; Heb. 1:2, 10-12; etc.)

Yes, past tense, the same as in Psalm 8.
Psalm 8:4–6 (KJV): 4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:

Hebrews 2:6–9 (KJV): 6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? 7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: 8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him. 9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

This appears to be what is called the prophetic past and we find the same type of occurrence in
Psalm 110:1 (KJV): The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
It does not say, Yahweh will say, but Yahweh said. This appears to be again the richness and beauty of the word of God, and could be of the same genre as the following:
Romans 4:17 (KJV): (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

I don't see how any of this address the fact that Jesus claimed to have been in existence with the Father, sharing in his glory, prior to creation. Again, this is a consistent message from John 1:1 right through to the end of his gospel. It is also seen throughout the rest of the NT.

It's notable that you must necessarily go through all manner of theological and biblical gymnastics to avoid plain, clear statements of Scripture, but it's because they contradict your beliefs. That's a significant issue.