Protestant countries are richer and less safe, Orthodox countries are safer but less rich: discuss

[GodsGrace]

At no point have I said that. Either you are not reading what I'm saying or you're being deliberately disingenuous

You seem to believe your statistics.
And you state that Europe is Christian.
Europe is NOT Christian.

I'm aware of this. Doesn't refute anything I've said.

Georgia, for example. (there are countless others)

That's the East and I believe Orthodox.
Please make clear that you're speaking ONLY of Orthodox nations, or the East,
and do not make the claim that Western countries are Christian.

The "no true Scotsman" fallacy is an informal fallacy where someone defends a universal claim by arbitrarily redefining the terms to exclude counterexamples.

Right.
So many fallacies to learn and know about just to have a simple conversation.

Which terms have I redefined??

I've asked you 2X now what CHRISTIAN means to you.
You haven't replied.

What does it mean to you that a country is Christian?

 

[miamited]

That's not the claim I made. Crime is LOWER in most Orthodox countries and HIGHER in Protestant one's. It is safer for kids to play at night in Greece than it is for them to play outside in the UK during the day.

In Japan the murder rate is only about .25. In Greece it is .85. Does that mean that Japan is more christian than Greece?

 

[LanaPodesta]

Why would one go to church otherwise?

Doesn't matter. The act of going to church and being the presence of the rite strengthens one's relationship with God. Even if you're an atheist.

Do you believe that if a person gets baptized,,,
and they do not believe...
they will go to heaven?

It is not for me to say who will and will not go to heaven.

I did say in my early post that I agree that Orthodox countries retain their religion
more than others.

Huh? You were saying the US is more Christian than these countries. Again you don't seem to be properly reading what I'm saying.

I said that it's MUCH LESS than 50% Christian.
I'm saying that England and London are NOT Christian....
and becoming worse all the time.

Right. As I said. Less than 50%. Why are you acting like I'm saying anything to the contrary?

What's going on with grooming?
Why aren't families being protected?
Even AFTER someone has been denounced.
Why are the, mainly, Pakistani's being protected against your very own people?

Different issue but yes the British government apparently despises its native people. Not sure why this is relevant?

Do you wish to discuss only the Orthodox faith?

This post is about comparing the social condition of PROTESTANT and ORTHODOX countries. Countries where these religions have been dominant historically.

You mean ORTHODOX countries?

If you mean CHRISTIAN countries then I do not agree.
Please make this clear.

Orthodox countries ARE Christian. What are you on about now?

 

[LanaPodesta]

In Japan the murder rate is only about .25. In Greece it is .85. Does that mean that Japan is more christian than Greece?

No. Why would it?

 

[LanaPodesta]

And you state that Europe is Christian.

Nope. Please read what I've said specifically and quote me I'm getting sick of your Strawman arguments (another logical fallacy).

That's the East and I believe Orthodox.
Please make clear that you're speaking ONLY of Orthodox nations, or the East,
and do not make the claim that Western countries are Christian.

I never said "Western" at any point I said EUROPEAN. This is another STRAWMAN. Georgia is EUROPEAN. Georgia is MAJORITY CHRISTIAN. This is a fact. Are you being deliberately obtuse?

I've asked you 2X now what CHRISTIAN means to you.

A member of the Christian faith. I'm not going to split hairs about this as it's a topic unto itself. Presume that when I use the term Christian in this discussion I am using the broadest definition. Thank you.

 

[GodsGrace]

Nope. Please read what I've said specifically and quote me I'm getting sick of your Strawman arguments (another logical fallacy).

I never said "Western" at any point I said EUROPEAN. This is another STRAWMAN. Georgia is EUROPEAN. Georgia is MAJORITY CHRISTIAN. This is a fact. Are you being deliberately obtuse?

A member of the Christian faith. I'm not going to split hairs about this as it's a topic unto itself. Presume that when I use the term Christian in this discussion I am using the broadest definition. Thank you.

I've also been using the term Christian in the broadest definition.

So, since we're having difficulty understanding each other,
I suggest our conversation stops here.

 

[LanaPodesta]

So, since we're having difficulty understanding each other

I understand YOU fine. You aren't reading what I'M saying.

Lana: The UK is less than 50% Christian.
GodsGrace: Wrong. The UK is less than 50% Christian.

Lana: Here's a list of countries in Europe where a higher percentage of people are Christian than in the USA
GodsGrace: Why aren't you listing countries in Europe where a lower percentage of people are Christian than in the USA

Lana: Lists Eastern European countries that are majority Christian
GodsGrace: Wrong, these Western European countries aren't majority Christian

Where is the moderator? All of your points have been strawman arguments which have completely derailed this post, which I imagine you don't understand, if you read it at all

 

[GodsGrace]

I understand YOU fine. You aren't reading what I'M saying.

Lana: The UK is less than 50% Christian.
GodsGrace: Wrong. The UK is less than 50% Christian.

Lana: Here's a list of countries in Europe where a higher percentage of people are Christian than in the USA
GodsGrace: Why aren't you listing countries in Europe where a lower percentage of people are Christian than in the USA

Lana: Lists Eastern European countries that are majority Christian
GodsGrace: Wrong, these Western European countries aren't majority Christian

Where is the moderator? All of your points have been strawman arguments which have completely derailed this post, which I imagine you don't understand, if you read it at all

The moderator is probably reading along.
No rules have been broken by either one of us.

Why are you still posting to me?
I stated in my last post that our misunderstanding each other is leading us nowhere and that this conversation should stop.

 

[GodsGrace]

I understand YOU fine. You aren't reading what I'M saying.

Lana: The UK is less than 50% Christian.
GodsGrace: Wrong. The UK is less than 50% Christian.

Lana: Here's a list of countries in Europe where a higher percentage of people are Christian than in the USA
GodsGrace: Why aren't you listing countries in Europe where a lower percentage of people are Christian than in the USA

Lana: Lists Eastern European countries that are majority Christian
GodsGrace: Wrong, these Western European countries aren't majority Christian

Where is the moderator? All of your points have been strawman arguments which have completely derailed this post, which I imagine you don't understand, if you read it at all

BTW
THIS is your OP:

Protestant countries are richer and less safe, Orthodox countries are safer but less rich: discuss​

In my first posts I agreed with you and even explained why.

If you don't want the conversation to go beyond that, in any way, it's up to you to keep the conversation very strict and to the point.

I think I've already explained this.
Conversations tend to get involved at times.

 

[LanaPodesta]

The moderator is probably reading along.
No rules have been broken by either one of us.

Why are you still posting to me?
I stated in my last post that our misunderstanding each other is leading us nowhere and that this conversation should stop.

I'm not misunderstanding you. You are misrepresenting nearly EVERYTHING I am saying and you are not making any effort to nor have you apologised.

For example

Lana: The UK is less than 50% Christian.
GodsGrace: Wrong. The UK is less than 50% Christian.

This proves you're not actually READING what I'm saying. If you're not SURE what I'm saying, that's fine, please ASK and I will clarify

 

[LanaPodesta]

In my first posts I agreed with you and even explained why.

Right, then you said "...the US is more Christian than certainly any country in Europe -if this is what you're comparing the US to" and refused to proven wrong when I provided evidence to the contrary.

 

[Free]

Because you appear to have a very specific definition of Christian beyond "member of the Christian religion".

Not at all. Please re-read what I have written. My point is that in order to be a "member of the Christian religion," certain criteria must be met. I listed a number of things that many think makes them a Christian, but do not, and gave a few things that are essential.

What do you think makes a person a "member of the Christian religion"?

 

[LanaPodesta]

Not at all. Please re-read what I have written. My point is that in order to be a "member of the Christian religion," certain criteria must be met. I listed a number of things that many think makes them a Christian, but do not, and gave a few things that are essential.

What do you think makes a person a "member of the Christian religion"?

This is getting reductive.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

Not at all. Please re-read what I have written. My point is that in order to be a "member of the Christian religion," certain criteria must be met. I listed a number of things that many think makes them a Christian, but do not, and gave a few things that are essential.

What do you think makes a person a "member of the Christian religion"?

I think she means that everyone who identifies as a Christian is a Christian. In fact, however, there are those who identify as Christian but are not. It is not one of our human abilities or responsibilities to determine who is a real Christian and who is not. So, for the sake of argument, I agree with her. But knowing the real group differs from the self-identified group, this whole discussion seems rather pointless.

 

[LanaPodesta]

I think she means that everyone who identifies as a Christian is a Christian. In fact, however, there are those who identify as Christian but are not. It is not one of our human abilities or responsibilities to determine who is a real Christian and who is not. So, for the sake of argument, I agree with her. But knowing the real group differs from the self-identified group, this whole discussion seems rather pointless.

no because we're focusing on cultures informed by denominations. Even if a country is currently atheist it will have cultural hangovers from the denomination in question, and specific trends can be identified

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

no because we're focusing on cultures informed by denominations. Even if a country is currently atheist it will have cultural hangovers from the denomination in question, and specific trends can be identified

Have you ever heard of what Wikipedia calls "a questionable-cause logical fallacy":

The phrase "correlation does not imply causation" refers to the inability to legitimately deduce a cause-and-effect relationship between two events or variables solely on the basis of an observed association or correlation between them. The idea that "correlation implies causation" is an example of a questionable-cause logical fallacy, in which two events occurring together are taken to have established a cause-and-effect relationship.​

It takes more effort to establish "cause and effect" than it does to establish correlation. How did you establish, for instance, that people feel safer in Orthodox countries than in Protestant countries? And going further, what information causes you to extrapolate from that correlation that Othrodox vs Protestant views contributed to the feelings of safety (or actual safety) or the lack thereof?

 

[Eli1+]

I think that you should give Lana credit for making these observations for a 15 year old kid as opposed to trying to correct her on some details which she might not have 100% correct.
Also, what you said about Italians GodsGrace is called being a 'cultural Christian'. I know this because i was born next door to Italy, in Albania so i know the whole region and mindset.
Cultural Christians exists in USA too, but the USA is more defined by one-man-islands due to Sola Scriptura ideology which permeates the culture.

All in all, we're all Christians because we believe in many pillars of Christianity and in Jesus Christ Himself so we can all learn from each-other while applying some forgiveness too.

God bless you.

 

[GodsGrace]

I think that you should give Lana credit for making these observations for a 15 year old kid as opposed to trying to correct her on some details which she might not have 100% correct.

Lana is 15 years old?
I didn't know this.
Explains a lot of the misunderstanding.
If you checked, you'd find that I agreed with her findings in my first or second post - can't remember.

However, no matter how old someone is....I still would correct them if I note an error.
Telling someone they're correct when they're not is of no help to them.
Then they can take or leave the advice/comment - they're free to do as they wish.

Also, what you said about Italians GodsGrace is called being a 'cultural Christian'. I know this because i was born next door to Italy, in Albania so i know the whole region and mindset.

Right. I think we all know what a cultural Christian is.
It's not a Christian.
If you tell me a nation is Christian...I expect that most of the population practices Christianity.
Otherwise it cannot be said that it's a Christian nation.
Italy is atheist. Not Christian.
Just because, in a census, persons tick off Catholic or Protestant (very few here) does NOT mean that the nation is Christian socially/ religiously....it just means that someone THINKS they're Christian.
Albania is far more religious than Italy is.

Cultural Christians exists in USA too, but the USA is more defined by one-man-islands due to Sola Scriptura ideology which permeates the culture.

The US is a Christian country.
It might be struggling to hold on from what I hear and see for myself....
but it's still a very much more religious country than any in Western Europe....
I'm not very familiar with the Eastern countries.

All in all, we're all Christians because we believe in many pillars of Christianity and in Jesus Christ Himself so we can all learn from each-other while applying some forgiveness too.

God bless you.

Yes. And I don't continue to argue. I thought it best to stop the conversation.
§Statistics don't mean too much when you live in a place, are involved in the church (Catholic, although I'm not Catholic in doctrine - don't ask!) and KNOW first-hand what the situation is. So since this was all she wanted to discuss, it ended there for me.

I do thank you for this post.
I'm sorry I didn't know she was so young or I would have ended it even sooner.
It's very difficult to stick so strictly to the OP and, of course, she won't know how to steer
the conversation at that young of an age, so I understand why she was complaining that I wasn't
keeping to the OP.

Ok.
God bless all of us!

 

[Hidden In Him]

no because we're focusing on cultures informed by denominations. Even if a country is currently atheist it will have cultural hangovers from the denomination in question, and specific trends can be identified

I simply cannot in any way sign off that American culture is being "informed by any Christian denomination" today, Lana. I just can't. It is being largely "informed" by secular and Satanist influence. There are a lot of older Christians here, but for the last 60 years the culture has been increasingly shaped by the music and entertainment world, and they are most certainly NOT Christians by a long shot.

The last time American culture was being genuinely informed by Christianity was back during the Second Great Awakening, and the movements that were sparked out of that addressed sin and social injustices, namely the Temperance movement, Abolitionism and prison reform. If one wished to compare the crime rates back then, I would consider it a legitimate argument, but then it might be biased to do so because this country was in the midst of a revival season whereas others might not have been.

But no earthly way can I say American culture is being informed by Protestantism right now. They are being constantly brainwashed by the media, and with an intensity that is unparalleled in our history IMO.

 

[GodsGrace]

I simply cannot in any way sign off that American culture is "informed by any Christian denomination" today, Lana. I just can't. It is being largely "informed" by secular and Satanist influence. There are a lot of older Christians here, but for the last 60 years the culture has been increasingly shaped by the music and entertainment world, and they are most certainly NOT Christians by a long shot.

The last time American culture was being genuinely informed by Christianity was back during the Second Great Awakening, and the movements that were sparked out of that addressed sin and social injustices, namely the Temperance movement, Abolitionism and prison reform. If one wished to compare the crime rates back then, I would consider it a legitimate argument, but then it might be biased to do so because this country was in the midst of a revival season whereas others might not have been.

But no earthly way can I say American culture is informed by Protestantism right now. They are being constantly brainwashed by the media, and with an intensity that is unparalleled in our history IMO.

Worse over here!
In comparison, the US is doing good.
Europe is finished unless something drastic happens.
I fear for Christianity.