John 15:1-6 and loss of slvation

[Bruce.Leiter]

Again

John 15:2
WHO are those IN CHRIST?

Assuming that Psalm 80, where the Psalmist says Israel is the vine, and that God brought the larger people of God out of Egypt, the branches are all who identify as God's people who are "in" Jesus in the sense of that they are "in" the covenant given to Israel and, later, to the visible church. The ones who fail to produce fruit the Father prunes from the visible church leaving only fruitful ones, real believers.

Psa 80:8 You brought a vine out of Egypt; you drove out the nations and planted it.
Psa 80:9 You cleared the ground for it; it took deep root and filled the land.
Psa 80:10 The mountains were covered with its shade, the mighty cedars with its branches.
Psa 80:11 It sent out its branches to the sea and its shoots to the River.
Psa 80:12 Why then have you broken down its walls, so that all who pass along the way pluck its fruit?
Psa 80:13 The boar from the forest ravages it, and all that move in the field feed on it.
Psa 80:14 Turn again, O God of hosts! Look down from heaven, and see; have regard for this vine,
Psa 80:15 the stock that your right hand planted, and for the son whom you made strong for yourself.
Psa 80:16 They have burned it with fire; they have cut it down; may they perish at the rebuke of your face!

 

[GodsGrace]

Assuming that Psalm 80, where the Psalmist says Israel is the vine, and that God brought the larger people of God out of Egypt, the branches are all who identify as God's people who are "in" Jesus in the sense of that they are "in" the covenant given to Israel and, later, to the visible church. The ones who fail to produce fruit the Father prunes from the visible church leaving only fruitful ones, real believers.

The above is not what Jesus stated.

Jesus did not say that those who fail to produce fruit will be pruned.
Jesus said that those that DO produce fruit will be pruned - so they could produce even more. Just like real plants/vines.

Jesus said that those IN HIM that do NOT produce fruit will be TAKEN AWAY....not pruned.
Those that are taken away will be like the branches that are dried up and burned.

John 15:2
2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.

Every branch IN JESUS (a believer) that does NOT bear fruit God TAKES AWAY.
God prunes the branches that DO bear fruit, so that they could produce even more fruit.


What happens to the branches IN JESUS that are taken away?

John 15:6
6 "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.


Those that do not produce fruit are THROWN AWAY as a branch and dry up and cast into the fire to be burned because they are useless.

Just as James stated:

James 2:16-17
16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?
17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

If we do not produce fruit for the Kingdom of God on earth....
of what use is faith?

Faith without works is dead.

Psa 80:8 You brought a vine out of Egypt; you drove out the nations and planted it.
Psa 80:9 You cleared the ground for it; it took deep root and filled the land.
Psa 80:10 The mountains were covered with its shade, the mighty cedars with its branches.
Psa 80:11 It sent out its branches to the sea and its shoots to the River.
Psa 80:12 Why then have you broken down its walls, so that all who pass along the way pluck its fruit?
Psa 80:13 The boar from the forest ravages it, and all that move in the field feed on it.
Psa 80:14 Turn again, O God of hosts! Look down from heaven, and see; have regard for this vine,
Psa 80:15 the stock that your right hand planted, and for the son whom you made strong for yourself.
Psa 80:16 They have burned it with fire; they have cut it down; may they perish at the rebuke of your face!

I'm sorry Bruce,,,with all due respect, I cannot agree.

Jesus knew what He wanted to teach.

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

The above is not what Jesus stated.

Jesus did not say that those who fail to produce fruit will be pruned.
Jesus said that those that DO produce fruit will be pruned - so they could produce even more. Just like real plants/vines.

Jesus said that those IN HIM that do NOT produce fruit will be TAKEN AWAY....not pruned.
Those that are taken away will be like the branches that are dried up and burned.

John 15:2
2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.

Every branch IN JESUS (a believer) that does NOT bear fruit God TAKES AWAY.
God prunes the branches that DO bear fruit, so that they could produce even more fruit.


What happens to the branches IN JESUS that are taken away?

John 15:6
6 "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.


Those that do not produce fruit are THROWN AWAY as a branch and dry up and cast into the fire to be burned because they are useless.

Just as James stated:

James 2:16-17
16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?
17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

If we do not produce fruit for the Kingdom of God on earth....
of what use is faith?

Faith without works is dead.





I'm sorry Bruce,,,with all due respect, I cannot agree.

Jesus knew what He wanted to teach.

GodsGrace, it's half a dozen and six of another whether you say "pruned" or "taken away." My point is that the fruitless branches are useless to God and are therefore the unbelievers in God's people, who are connected with Jesus according to God's new covenant with the visible church (Psalm 80). Fruitful branches (believers among God's people) are the invisible church in God's new covenant.

 

[GodsGrace]

GodsGrace, it's half a dozen and six of another whether you say "pruned" or "taken away." My point is that the fruitless branches are useless to God and are therefore the unbelievers

BUT
what you post is NOT what Jesus is teaching.

Jesus states that BELIEVERS will be taken away due to unfruitfulness.
Being unfruitful in the KofG makes us useless to God.

Jesus is teaching that BELEIVERS are to bear fruit.

It's not 6 of one and half a dozen of another.

Please note:
Pruning will create more fruit.
Taken away will KILL THE BRANCH.

Jesus said that BELIEVERS that do not bear fruit will be TAKEN AWAY.

in God's people, who are connected with Jesus according to God's new covenant with the visible church (Psalm 80). Fruitful branches (believers among God's people) are the invisible church in God's new covenant.

Old Covenant
New Covenant

God demands obedience to what HE teaches.
And the words of Jesus cannot be more clear.

Paul spoke a lot of theology...
Jesus spoke simple truths.

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

BUT
what you post is NOT what Jesus is teaching.

Jesus states that BELIEVERS will be taken away due to unfruitfulness.
Being unfruitful in the KofG makes us useless to God.

Jesus is teaching that BELEIVERS are to bear fruit.

It's not 6 of one and half a dozen of another.

Please note:
Pruning will create more fruit.
Taken away will KILL THE BRANCH.

Jesus said that BELIEVERS that do not bear fruit will be TAKEN AWAY.



Old Covenant
New Covenant

God demands obedience to what HE teaches.
And the words of Jesus cannot be more clear.

Paul spoke a lot of theology...
Jesus spoke simple truths.

No, GodsGrace, Jesus says that unfruitful BRANCHES in him, the true Vine, are taken away and burned. You're interpreting what Jesus said that all the branches are believers. Where does he say that? He was speaking to his disciples, at least one of whom was an unbeliever (Judas Iscariot).

Verse 8 says that our fruitfulness shows that we are Jesus' true believers. The barren branches are not believers like many in Israel (Psalm 80) and in the visible church today.

Joh 15:1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser.
Joh 15:2 Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
Joh 15:3 Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you.
Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me.
Joh 15:5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.
Joh 15:6 If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned.
Joh 15:7 If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.
Joh 15:8 By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples.

 

[GodsGrace]

No, GodsGrace, Jesus says that unfruitful BRANCHES in him, the true Vine, are taken away and burned. You're interpreting what Jesus said that all the branches are believers. Where does he say that? He was speaking to his disciples, at least one of whom was an unbeliever (Judas Iscariot).

Jesus clearly states that the BELIEVERS must produce fruit.
Jesus states that the branches IN HIM that do NOT produce fruit will be taken away.

Yes. ALL branches IN JESUS are believers.
Jesus is stating this...not me.

Again (I've already stated this) WHO is IN HIM?
Is an unbeliever IN JESUS?
No.
A BELIEVER is IN JESUS.
A BRANCH IN JESUS is a believer.

The branches IN JESUS that do NOT bear fruit will be taken away.
This is not MY interpretation....
It's what Jesus clearly stated.


John 15:2
2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away;

Who is IN JESUS...a believer or a non-believer??

Every branch IN JESUS that does not bear fruit is taken away.

Verse 8 says that our fruitfulness shows that we are Jesus' true believers. The barren branches are not believers like many in Israel (Psalm 80) and in the visible church today.

You're changing Jesus' words Bruce.

John 15 does NOT state that the barren branches are not believers.
John 15 states that BELIEVERS IN JESUS will be taken away if they do NOT produce fruit.

This is repeated by Jesus here:

Luke 13:6-9
6 And He began telling this parable: "A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any.
7 "And he said to the vineyard-keeper, 'Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without * finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?'
8 "And he answered and said to him, 'Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer;
9 and if it bears fruit next * year, fine; but if not, cut it down.' "

Joh 15:1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser.
Joh 15:2 Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
Joh 15:3 Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you.
Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me.
Joh 15:5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.
Joh 15:6 If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned.
Joh 15:7 If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.
Joh 15:8 By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples.