John 15:1-6 and loss of slvation

[Bruce Leiter]

Again

John 15:2
WHO are those IN CHRIST?

Assuming that Psalm 80, where the Psalmist says Israel is the vine, and that God brought the larger people of God out of Egypt, the branches are all who identify as God's people who are "in" Jesus in the sense of that they are "in" the covenant given to Israel and, later, to the visible church. The ones who fail to produce fruit the Father prunes from the visible church leaving only fruitful ones, real believers.

Psa 80:8 You brought a vine out of Egypt; you drove out the nations and planted it.
Psa 80:9 You cleared the ground for it; it took deep root and filled the land.
Psa 80:10 The mountains were covered with its shade, the mighty cedars with its branches.
Psa 80:11 It sent out its branches to the sea and its shoots to the River.
Psa 80:12 Why then have you broken down its walls, so that all who pass along the way pluck its fruit?
Psa 80:13 The boar from the forest ravages it, and all that move in the field feed on it.
Psa 80:14 Turn again, O God of hosts! Look down from heaven, and see; have regard for this vine,
Psa 80:15 the stock that your right hand planted, and for the son whom you made strong for yourself.
Psa 80:16 They have burned it with fire; they have cut it down; may they perish at the rebuke of your face!

 

[GodsGrace]

Assuming that Psalm 80, where the Psalmist says Israel is the vine, and that God brought the larger people of God out of Egypt, the branches are all who identify as God's people who are "in" Jesus in the sense of that they are "in" the covenant given to Israel and, later, to the visible church. The ones who fail to produce fruit the Father prunes from the visible church leaving only fruitful ones, real believers.

The above is not what Jesus stated.

Jesus did not say that those who fail to produce fruit will be pruned.
Jesus said that those that DO produce fruit will be pruned - so they could produce even more. Just like real plants/vines.

Jesus said that those IN HIM that do NOT produce fruit will be TAKEN AWAY....not pruned.
Those that are taken away will be like the branches that are dried up and burned.

John 15:2
2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.

Every branch IN JESUS (a believer) that does NOT bear fruit God TAKES AWAY.
God prunes the branches that DO bear fruit, so that they could produce even more fruit.


What happens to the branches IN JESUS that are taken away?

John 15:6
6 "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.


Those that do not produce fruit are THROWN AWAY as a branch and dry up and cast into the fire to be burned because they are useless.

Just as James stated:

James 2:16-17
16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?
17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

If we do not produce fruit for the Kingdom of God on earth....
of what use is faith?

Faith without works is dead.

Psa 80:8 You brought a vine out of Egypt; you drove out the nations and planted it.
Psa 80:9 You cleared the ground for it; it took deep root and filled the land.
Psa 80:10 The mountains were covered with its shade, the mighty cedars with its branches.
Psa 80:11 It sent out its branches to the sea and its shoots to the River.
Psa 80:12 Why then have you broken down its walls, so that all who pass along the way pluck its fruit?
Psa 80:13 The boar from the forest ravages it, and all that move in the field feed on it.
Psa 80:14 Turn again, O God of hosts! Look down from heaven, and see; have regard for this vine,
Psa 80:15 the stock that your right hand planted, and for the son whom you made strong for yourself.
Psa 80:16 They have burned it with fire; they have cut it down; may they perish at the rebuke of your face!

I'm sorry Bruce,,,with all due respect, I cannot agree.

Jesus knew what He wanted to teach.

 

[Bruce Leiter]

The above is not what Jesus stated.

Jesus did not say that those who fail to produce fruit will be pruned.
Jesus said that those that DO produce fruit will be pruned - so they could produce even more. Just like real plants/vines.

Jesus said that those IN HIM that do NOT produce fruit will be TAKEN AWAY....not pruned.
Those that are taken away will be like the branches that are dried up and burned.

John 15:2
2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.

Every branch IN JESUS (a believer) that does NOT bear fruit God TAKES AWAY.
God prunes the branches that DO bear fruit, so that they could produce even more fruit.


What happens to the branches IN JESUS that are taken away?

John 15:6
6 "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.


Those that do not produce fruit are THROWN AWAY as a branch and dry up and cast into the fire to be burned because they are useless.

Just as James stated:

James 2:16-17
16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?
17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

If we do not produce fruit for the Kingdom of God on earth....
of what use is faith?

Faith without works is dead.





I'm sorry Bruce,,,with all due respect, I cannot agree.

Jesus knew what He wanted to teach.

GodsGrace, it's half a dozen and six of another whether you say "pruned" or "taken away." My point is that the fruitless branches are useless to God and are therefore the unbelievers in God's people, who are connected with Jesus according to God's new covenant with the visible church (Psalm 80). Fruitful branches (believers among God's people) are the invisible church in God's new covenant.

 

[GodsGrace]

GodsGrace, it's half a dozen and six of another whether you say "pruned" or "taken away." My point is that the fruitless branches are useless to God and are therefore the unbelievers

BUT
what you post is NOT what Jesus is teaching.

Jesus states that BELIEVERS will be taken away due to unfruitfulness.
Being unfruitful in the KofG makes us useless to God.

Jesus is teaching that BELEIVERS are to bear fruit.

It's not 6 of one and half a dozen of another.

Please note:
Pruning will create more fruit.
Taken away will KILL THE BRANCH.

Jesus said that BELIEVERS that do not bear fruit will be TAKEN AWAY.

in God's people, who are connected with Jesus according to God's new covenant with the visible church (Psalm 80). Fruitful branches (believers among God's people) are the invisible church in God's new covenant.

Old Covenant
New Covenant

God demands obedience to what HE teaches.
And the words of Jesus cannot be more clear.

Paul spoke a lot of theology...
Jesus spoke simple truths.

 

[Bruce Leiter]

BUT
what you post is NOT what Jesus is teaching.

Jesus states that BELIEVERS will be taken away due to unfruitfulness.
Being unfruitful in the KofG makes us useless to God.

Jesus is teaching that BELEIVERS are to bear fruit.

It's not 6 of one and half a dozen of another.

Please note:
Pruning will create more fruit.
Taken away will KILL THE BRANCH.

Jesus said that BELIEVERS that do not bear fruit will be TAKEN AWAY.



Old Covenant
New Covenant

God demands obedience to what HE teaches.
And the words of Jesus cannot be more clear.

Paul spoke a lot of theology...
Jesus spoke simple truths.

No, GodsGrace, Jesus says that unfruitful BRANCHES in him, the true Vine, are taken away and burned. You're interpreting what Jesus said that all the branches are believers. Where does he say that? He was speaking to his disciples, at least one of whom was an unbeliever (Judas Iscariot).

Verse 8 says that our fruitfulness shows that we are Jesus' true believers. The barren branches are not believers like many in Israel (Psalm 80) and in the visible church today.

Joh 15:1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser.
Joh 15:2 Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
Joh 15:3 Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you.
Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me.
Joh 15:5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.
Joh 15:6 If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned.
Joh 15:7 If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.
Joh 15:8 By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples.

 

[GodsGrace]

No, GodsGrace, Jesus says that unfruitful BRANCHES in him, the true Vine, are taken away and burned. You're interpreting what Jesus said that all the branches are believers. Where does he say that? He was speaking to his disciples, at least one of whom was an unbeliever (Judas Iscariot).

Jesus clearly states that the BELIEVERS must produce fruit.
Jesus states that the branches IN HIM that do NOT produce fruit will be taken away.

Yes. ALL branches IN JESUS are believers.
Jesus is stating this...not me.

Again (I've already stated this) WHO is IN HIM?
Is an unbeliever IN JESUS?
No.
A BELIEVER is IN JESUS.
A BRANCH IN JESUS is a believer.

The branches IN JESUS that do NOT bear fruit will be taken away.
This is not MY interpretation....
It's what Jesus clearly stated.


John 15:2
2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away;

Who is IN JESUS...a believer or a non-believer??

Every branch IN JESUS that does not bear fruit is taken away.

Verse 8 says that our fruitfulness shows that we are Jesus' true believers. The barren branches are not believers like many in Israel (Psalm 80) and in the visible church today.

You're changing Jesus' words Bruce.

John 15 does NOT state that the barren branches are not believers.
John 15 states that BELIEVERS IN JESUS will be taken away if they do NOT produce fruit.

This is repeated by Jesus here:

Luke 13:6-9
6 And He began telling this parable: "A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any.
7 "And he said to the vineyard-keeper, 'Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without * finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?'
8 "And he answered and said to him, 'Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer;
9 and if it bears fruit next * year, fine; but if not, cut it down.' "

Joh 15:1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser.
Joh 15:2 Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
Joh 15:3 Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you.
Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me.
Joh 15:5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.
Joh 15:6 If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned.
Joh 15:7 If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.
Joh 15:8 By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples.

 

[Bruce Leiter]

Jesus clearly states that the BELIEVERS must produce fruit.
Jesus states that the branches IN HIM that do NOT produce fruit will be taken away.

Yes. ALL branches IN JESUS are believers.
Jesus is stating this...not me.

Again (I've already stated this) WHO is IN HIM?
Is an unbeliever IN JESUS?
No.
A BELIEVER is IN JESUS.
A BRANCH IN JESUS is a believer.

The branches IN JESUS that do NOT bear fruit will be taken away.
This is not MY interpretation....
It's what Jesus clearly stated.


John 15:2
2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away;

Who is IN JESUS...a believer or a non-believer??

Every branch IN JESUS that does not bear fruit is taken away.


You're changing Jesus' words Bruce.

John 15 does NOT state that the barren branches are not believers.
John 15 states that BELIEVERS IN JESUS will be taken away if they do NOT produce fruit.

This is repeated by Jesus here:

Luke 13:6-9
6 And He began telling this parable: "A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any.
7 "And he said to the vineyard-keeper, 'Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without * finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?'
8 "And he answered and said to him, 'Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer;
9 and if it bears fruit next * year, fine; but if not, cut it down.' "

GodsGrace, over eighty times in the Bible, the phrase "their God" appears to describe the covenant relationship that God calls Israel and later the church to have with him. Since Jesus is a Person of God, he is saying that the many barren branches who call Jesus, the Father, and the Spirit "their God" will be lost because they do not bear the fruit that God wants them to have.

They are "his people" but are rebellious like the vast majority of Israel throughout the Old Testament and of the church too, but, sadly, they will be burned. Then, some day when Jesus returns, his people will all be true believers in their God:

Rev_21:3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God.

 

[GodsGrace]

GodsGrace, over eighty times in the Bible, the phrase "their God" appears to describe the covenant relationship that God calls Israel and later the church to have with him. Since Jesus is a Person of God, he is saying that the many barren branches who call Jesus, the Father, and the Spirit "their God" will be lost because they do not bear the fruit that God wants them to have.

Jesus is a "person of God?"
I'm sure you didn't mean how that sounds.
Jesus is God.

They are "his people" but are rebellious like the vast majority of Israel throughout the Old Testament and of the church too, but, sadly, they will be burned. Then, some day when Jesus returns, his people will all be true believers in their God:

Are you willing to concede that Romans 9 is speaking about Israel and not individual believers?
If you are, we could discuss ... otherwise this discussion ends here.

You can't use Israel as an excuse for what Jesus states when it suits you...
and NOT use Israel for predestination in Romans 9 when it does not suit you.

Jesus NEVER mentioned His people.
He mentions His sheep and states that His sheep HEAR HIS VOICE...
those that HEAR His voice do not rebel.

Jesus taught doing good works.
Jesus said that if the fig tree did not produce fruit within a year it would be cut down.
Jesus said that those IN HIM that do not produce fruit will be taken away.

So you're saying Jesus is speaking about the Jews?
At the time of Jesus,,,were the Jews IN JESUS?

Or, did He, on the cross cry out
MY GOD MY GOD WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME...
and the rest of Psalm 22....
I am surrounded by dogs.

Does that sound like the Jews were the people of Jesus?

I don't think so.

Rev_21:3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God.

 

[Bruce Leiter]

Jesus is a "person of God?"
I'm sure you didn't mean how that sounds.
Jesus is God.

Are you willing to concede that Romans 9 is speaking about Israel and not individual believers?
If you are, we could discuss ... otherwise this discussion ends here.

You can't use Israel as an excuse for what Jesus states when it suits you...
and NOT use Israel for predestination in Romans 9 when it does not suit you.

Jesus NEVER mentioned His people.
He mentions His sheep and states that His sheep HEAR HIS VOICE...
those that HEAR His voice do not rebel.

Jesus taught doing good works.
Jesus said that if the fig tree did not produce fruit within a year it would be cut down.
Jesus said that those IN HIM that do not produce fruit will be taken away.

So you're saying Jesus is speaking about the Jews?
At the time of Jesus,,,were the Jews IN JESUS?

Or, did He, on the cross cry out
MY GOD MY GOD WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME...
and the rest of Psalm 22....
I am surrounded by dogs.

Does that sound like the Jews were the people of Jesus?

I don't think so.

GodsGrace, yes, Jesus is one of the three Persons of the one true God of the Bible. He refers to his Father and introduces us more fully to the Holy Spirit in the Gospel of John. Yet, God is one God, not three Gods. Is that what you believe?

Yes, I too think that Paul is talking about Israel in Romans 9, but he may be also referring to the true "Israel," the church. With prophecies, it's often difficult understanding them until they are fulfilled. So, it's important to be tentative in our attempts, I think.

What do you mean when you say, "You can't use Israel as an excuse for what Jesus states when it suits you...." I have no idea what you're saying about my writing. Please enlighten me. Thanks.

God has predestined both the formation and continuance of the people of Israel and also specifically with each true believer within that nation and the church. There are national and individual aspects to God's covenant that he has established with the children of Abraham:

Jer_31:31 “Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah,
Luk_22:20 And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.
1Co_11:25 In the same way also he took the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.”

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.

 

[GodsGrace]

GodsGrace, yes, Jesus is one of the three Persons of the one true God of the Bible. He refers to his Father and introduces us more fully to the Holy Spirit in the Gospel of John. Yet, God is one God, not three Gods. Is that what you believe?

Of course!
YOU made the statement that caused me some doubt about what You meant...
but I really knew it was how you stated it. The Reformed believe in the Trinity...
as Christian are supposed to.

Yes, I too think that Paul is talking about Israel in Romans 9, but he may be also referring to the true "Israel," the church. With prophecies, it's often difficult understanding them until they are fulfilled. So, it's important to be tentative in our attempts, I think.

I believe Romans 9 is to the Jews and Paul is explaining why or how the Gentiles are being grafted in...seems they weren't too happy about this.

The predestination is regarding Israel and not individuals persons...but, yes, this would become a long conversation and, quite frankly, I don't know that I'd want to.

What do you mean when you say, "You can't use Israel as an excuse for what Jesus states when it suits you...." I have no idea what you're saying about my writing. Please enlighten me. Thanks.

Not worth it.

God has predestined both the formation and continuance of the people of Israel and also specifically with each true believer within that nation and the church. There are national and individual aspects to God's covenant that he has established with the children of Abraham:

At least you're willing to say that there are aspects of Paul referring to Israel...I'm referring to corporate salvation in Romans 9. But I'll leave it at that.

Jer_31:31 “Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah,
Luk_22:20 And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.
1Co_11:25 In the same way also he took the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.”

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.

You're going off topic.
Had to go back 2 posts to remember the conversation.

I referred to the fig tree to explain that God requires us to bear fruit.
YOU stated that He was referring to Israel.

I said I cannot accept that due to Jesus' teaching in John 15:2 where He states that branches IN HIM (saved persons) that do not bear fruit will be cut off.

If you wish to explain why you don't understand John 15:2 the same way many other Christians do...I'm good with that.

WHY do you think we cannot agree on such a plain verse?

 

[Bruce Leiter]

Of course!
YOU made the statement that caused me some doubt about what You meant...
but I really knew it was how you stated it. The Reformed believe in the Trinity...
as Christian are supposed to.

I believe Romans 9 is to the Jews and Paul is explaining why or how the Gentiles are being grafted in...seems they weren't too happy about this.

The predestination is regarding Israel and not individuals persons...but, yes, this would become a long conversation and, quite frankly, I don't know that I'd want to.

Not worth it.

At least you're willing to say that there are aspects of Paul referring to Israel...I'm referring to corporate salvation in Romans 9. But I'll leave it at that.

You're going off topic.
Had to go back 2 posts to remember the conversation.

I referred to the fig tree to explain that God requires us to bear fruit.
YOU stated that He was referring to Israel.

I said I cannot accept that due to Jesus' teaching in John 15:2 where He states that branches IN HIM (saved persons) that do not bear fruit will be cut off.

If you wish to explain why you don't understand John 15:2 the same way many other Christians do...I'm good with that.

WHY do you think we cannot agree on such a plain verse?

John 15:2 may not be as plain in meaning as you think, GodsGrace. Go to Psalm 80:7-19:

Psa 80:7 Restore us, O God of hosts; let your face shine, that we may be saved!
Psa 80:8 You brought a vine out of Egypt; you drove out the nations and planted it.
Psa 80:9 You cleared the ground for it; it took deep root and filled the land.
Psa 80:10 The mountains were covered with its shade, the mighty cedars with its branches.
Psa 80:11 It sent out its branches to the sea and its shoots to the River.
Psa 80:12 Why then have you broken down its walls, so that all who pass along the way pluck its fruit?
Psa 80:13 The boar from the forest ravages it, and all that move in the field feed on it.
Psa 80:14 Turn again, O God of hosts! Look down from heaven, and see; have regard for this vine,
Psa 80:15 the stock that your right hand planted, and for the son whom you made strong for yourself.
Psa 80:16 They have burned it with fire; they have cut it down; may they perish at the rebuke of your face!
Psa 80:17 But let your hand be on the man of your right hand, the son of man whom you have made strong for yourself!
Psa 80:18 Then we shall not turn back from you; give us life, and we will call upon your name!
Psa 80:19 Restore us, O LORD God of hosts! Let your face shine, that we may be saved!

I believe that this Psalm is the background to Jesus' claim to be the vine, which means that he is identifying, first of all, with the God who brought Israel out of Egypt and planted them in the promised land. Jesus claims to be that same God. The whole nation, 2 million strong, came out of Egypt, because they were in covenant with the God of Abraham ("in him"). However, a vast majority of those Israelites died in the desert unfruitful, as did many during Israel's time in the promised land, resulting in their exile.

Therefore, in John 15:2, Jesus is merely saying that the unbelievers among his followers, including Judas Iscariot, will have to be taken away by the Father and punished if they don't repent.

 

[GodsGrace]

John 15:2 may not be as plain in meaning as you think, GodsGrace. Go to Psalm 80:7-19:

Psa 80:7 Restore us, O God of hosts; let your face shine, that we may be saved!
Psa 80:8 You brought a vine out of Egypt; you drove out the nations and planted it.
Psa 80:9 You cleared the ground for it; it took deep root and filled the land.
Psa 80:10 The mountains were covered with its shade, the mighty cedars with its branches.
Psa 80:11 It sent out its branches to the sea and its shoots to the River.
Psa 80:12 Why then have you broken down its walls, so that all who pass along the way pluck its fruit?
Psa 80:13 The boar from the forest ravages it, and all that move in the field feed on it.
Psa 80:14 Turn again, O God of hosts! Look down from heaven, and see; have regard for this vine,
Psa 80:15 the stock that your right hand planted, and for the son whom you made strong for yourself.
Psa 80:16 They have burned it with fire; they have cut it down; may they perish at the rebuke of your face!
Psa 80:17 But let your hand be on the man of your right hand, the son of man whom you have made strong for yourself!
Psa 80:18 Then we shall not turn back from you; give us life, and we will call upon your name!
Psa 80:19 Restore us, O LORD God of hosts! Let your face shine, that we may be saved!

I believe that this Psalm is the background to Jesus' claim to be the vine, which means that he is identifying, first of all, with the God who brought Israel out of Egypt and planted them in the promised land. Jesus claims to be that same God. The whole nation, 2 million strong, came out of Egypt, because they were in covenant with the God of Abraham ("in him"). However, a vast majority of those Israelites died in the desert unfruitful, as did many during Israel's time in the promised land, resulting in their exile.

Therefore, in John 15:2, Jesus is merely saying that the unbelievers among his followers, including Judas Iscariot, will have to be taken away by the Father and punished if they don't repent.

Bruce, this could go on forever...and I'm not that type.

Sometimes (many times) the NT writer is alluding specifically to the OT.

In the case of John 15:2 there is no doubt that Jesus is teaching something that is found elsewhere in scripture and is making it very plain.

Jesus made all His teachings very plain because they're so important.
He clearly stated that those IN HIM will be taken away if they do not produce fruit.

Doesn't seem like He was describing Israel to me.

Those that believe in either OSAS or the Pres of the Saints just will not accept all of scripture...even very plain scripture.

I don't like to hold on tight to a teaching if there's proof that it may be wrong.
So I'll end it here and catch you the next time around.