Losing ones salvation

[Groovy]

I don't think that other religions are false, I think that every religion can save the person that believes in it.

Well, we are glad that you disagree with your priest, who said that "all non Orthodox are false witness. He not accept other churches, because to us it is obvious that Jesus created only the Orthodox church. There is evidence of miracles within our church, so it is true church,".

 

[Fastfredy0]

I apologize but I am unable to read super long posts

I'm sympathetic to that feeling.

predestination would mean that you believe God also has ordained some to everylasting hell which would contradict his nature.

Predestination confirms God's nature. The only way God can know the future is if He controls/predestines it. It's not like God, before creation, could inquire of nothing what nothing will do in the future for from nothing, nothing comes. God creates ALL THINGS, including your desires which includes a sin nature. Psalm 51:5 I was brought forth in [a state of] wickedness; In sin my mother conceived me [and from my beginning I, too, was sinful].

So am I to understand that because we did not choose God we cannot lose our salvation but also because we didi not choose God then that means some cannot be saved?

Because God chooses whom to save in eternity past He ensures all those chosen will be saved and He has the power to ensure what He wants to come to pass occurs. Aside: Technically, we choose to believe, but the reason we do so is that the Spirit regenerates a person which changes his desires/belief. Logically speaking, regeneration precedes salvific belief.

 

[Blain DeCastro]

I'm sympathetic to that feeling.


Predestination confirms God's nature. The only way God can know the future is if He controls/predestines it. It's not like God, before creation, could inquire of nothing what nothing will do in the future for from nothing, nothing comes. God creates ALL THINGS, including your desires which includes a sin nature. Psalm 51:5 I was brought forth in [a state of] wickedness; In sin my mother conceived me [and from my beginning I, too, was sinful].



Because God chooses whom to save in eternity past He ensures all those chosen will be saved and He has the power to ensure what He wants to come to pass occurs. Aside: Technically, we choose to believe, but the reason we do so is that the Spirit regenerates a person which changes his desires/belief. Logically speaking, regeneration precedes salvific belief.

So then what is the point of Christ dying if God has already ordained who is to come to salvation? and for that matter what is the point of witnessing to others if only a select few will be saved?

 

[Fastfredy0]

So then what is the point of Christ dying if God has already ordained who is to come to salvation?

The question is answered by a greater, all encompassing question: What is God's purpose?
God's purpose is HIS GLORY & HIS PLEASURE. I assume God is most glorified by this method of salvation that He has ordained.

what is the point of witnessing to others if only a select few will be saved?

Two points:
1) we are required to be obedient
2) we don't know whom God will save and this is the method God has ordained so I assume the best method

God ways are not our ways and His thoughts not our thoughts ... so our reasoning for God's methods probably does not follow.

 

[Groovy]

I'm sympathetic to that feeling.

Predestination confirms God's nature. The only way God can know the future is if He controls/predestines it. It's not like God, before creation, could inquire of nothing what nothing will do in the future for from nothing, nothing comes. God creates ALL THINGS, including your desires which includes a sin nature. Psalm 51:5 I was brought forth in [a state of] wickedness; In sin my mother conceived me [and from my beginning I, too, was sinful].

Because God chooses whom to save in eternity past He ensures all those chosen will be saved and He has the power to ensure what He wants to come to pass occurs. Aside: Technically, we choose to believe, but the reason we do so is that the Spirit regenerates a person which changes his desires/belief. Logically speaking, regeneration precedes salvific belief.

And I am appreciative of a tulipist who admits he believes in divine determinism. However, there is another possibility that aligns better with most of Scripture:

God’s omnipotence means that He can do everything except “disown Himself” or not be God (2Tim. 2:13). It does NOT mean that God can perform logical absurdities, such as creating a rock too large for Him to move. Omnipotence or sovereignty also means that human moral free will (MFW) has limits with regard to how it can contradict God’s will. God provides morally competent humans the ability to resist His intentional will and plan of salvation (POS) within limits, such as the time limit that will end with death, resurrection (the last miracle) and judgment (per Heb. 9:27)–called His permissive will.

2. God’s power is equivalent to His omniscience. Jeremiah wrote that “God made the earth by his power; he founded the world by his wisdom.” (Jer. 10:12) Many NT passages refer to God as the source of true wisdom (e.g., Acts 6:3, 1Cor. 1:25, Col. 2:2-3, Jam. 1:5). God’s infinitely superior knowledge is extolled in Romans 11:33-34 (echoing Isa. 40:13-14) and Daniel 2:20-23.

Omniscience includes knowledge of people’s thoughts (Psa. 94:11, Matt. 12:25) and the foreknowledge of events (Acts 2:23, Rom. 8:29, 11:2, 1Pet. 1:2). Some people think that God even knows what a person will be/do before that person exists (Jer. 1:5). If this view is correct (IOW, it is not absurd), it must be maintained that God’s foreknowledge does not predetermine a person’s spiritual choice regarding the satisfaction of God’s requirement for salvation or else moral responsibility would be abrogated. I find it simpler to think that God merely tweaks the river of history occasionally to keep if flowing in the direction He intends but allows the fish to swim as they wish.

The essential aspect of being a human rather than a robot or subhuman creature is MFW, which is what enables a person to experience love and meaning. This is what makes humans different from animals, whose behavior is governed mainly by instinct. This is what it means to be created in God’s image (Gen. 1:26-27; robot or responsible?) God could not force people to return His love without abrogating their humanity. If God were to zap ungodly souls, it would be tantamount to forcing conversions at gunpoint, which would not be free and genuine. If God were to prevent people from behaving hatefully, then He would need to prevent them from thinking evilly, which would make human souls programmed automatons.

MFW only exists when there is the possibility of choosing between two qualitatively opposite moral options that we call good and evil. These options are opposites because of essentially different consequences for choosing them. Choosing good results in blessing, life and heaven; and choosing evil results in cursing, death and hell (Deut. 30:19). This is why hell as well as heaven exists. It is the just consequence for choosing evil rather than God. The Spirit of God is good: love, peace and joy (Gal. 5:22-23). Therefore, whoever rejects the Lord is spiritually separated from Him (Isa. 59:2) and thereby chooses the evil or satanic spirit of hatred, strife and misery and reaps the just consequence called “hell” in the afterlife (Gal. 6:7-9, Heb. 9:27-28). These options were presented by Moses to the Israelites (Deut. 30:19), and Jesus referred to this fundamental choice in terms of a fish or egg versus a snake or scorpion (Luke 11:11-13). Life… or Curse? (Gen. 3:24, Rev. 22:1-2).

God created theoretical evil or the possibility of rejecting Him as an option that actualizes MFW/free human personality. As such it is necessary and even good (Gen. 1:31). Of course, it was wrong for Satan (1John 3:8) and humanity (Rom. 5:12) to make evil actual by choosing to Sin or reject Faith in God’s Lordship. Sin: ignoring God/God’s Word. God loves a cheerful giver (2Cor. 9:7), which means He desires people to cooperate with Him happily because of love and gratitude for His grace rather than to cower before Him because of fear of hell. Love must be evoked; it cannot be coerced. And again, when souls sin or do NOT choose to love God freely, it is perfectly just (loving and logical) for them to reap the appropriate consequence (Gal. 6:7-9) or hell.

And y'all say?

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

Okay Bruce, the first thing I would like to clarify is that my objection is to the TULIP doctrine rather than to people,
and I disagree with TULIP for the reasons I cited in both paragraphs of post #60.

MFW means moral free will and is the view opposed to TULIP, which I explain as follows:

M – God’s requirement for salvation (GRFS) is a Moral condition called faith, which is manifested as seeking God’s righteousness or salvation, which in turn presumes sufficient human volition even for sinners to make them morally accountable.

F – God enables all morally accountable souls sufficient Freedom to satisfy GRFS—or not, because His grace is not irresistible, which means sinners are accountable and justly condemned when they do not repent and accept Christ’s atonement for their sins

W – Faith is almost synonymous with Will, but volition focuses on faith as cooperation with God (or not), and cooperating with God by accepting His grace is NOT meritorious or working to earn heaven or salvation by obeying moral laws.

Unconditionally electing only some is by definition showing favoritism, but of course tulipists do not admit it.

Over...

Groovy, respectfully, could you explain your thoughts with plain, instead of professorial, everyday language? Your explanations are hard to follow and don't make a lot of sense to me, even though God has blessed me with English and Divinity Master's Degree, plus 8 years of English teaching and 27 years as a pastor. I have spent many years trying to communicate clearly to people, especially as a published author during the last 17 years.

In plain English, please explain your objections to TULIP, and I'll respond. Thanks. Your friend, Bruce Leiter the Writer.

 

[JLB]

Premise 1: It is God that chooses (elects, predetermines, appoints, calls) individuals to salvation

Premise 1 is a text book example of eisegesis. You reading into the text a predetermined meaning that is no where to be found in any scripture you listed.

Not one single reference that states God predetermines people for salvation.


Here is the truth that Jesus taught.


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

God loves the world.

God desires for the people of the world to be saved.

The way a person becomes saved, born again, is to believe in the message of salvation which is found in Christ.



JLB

 

[Groovy]

Groovy, respectfully, could you explain your thoughts with plain, instead of professorial, everyday language? Your explanations are hard to follow and don't make a lot of sense to me, even though God has blessed me with English and Divinity Master's Degree, plus 8 years of English teaching and 27 years as a pastor. I have spent many years trying to communicate clearly to people, especially as a published author during the last 17 years.

In plain English, please explain your objections to TULIP, and I'll respond. Thanks. Your friend, Bruce Leiter the Writer.

I will try, Bruce, in two ways:

I. The concerns of those who accept TULIP—to affirm the sovereignty of God and the inability of souls to earn salvation—are valid, but the solutions are problematic, because they deny or ignore Scripture teaching the love of God for all sinners and the moral accountability of sinners for rejecting the love of God, thereby effectively perverting the Gospel (Gal. 5:6) and impugning God’s justness/righteousness (Psa. 33:5, Isa. 9:7).

The apparent reasons for these errors are threefold: 1. Ignorance of Scripture that contradicts their dogma, such as those teaching the possibility of apostasy, 2. Viewing faith as a meritorious work rather than as the non-meritorious condition of cooperating with God’s grace, and 3. Unconcern about portraying God as unjust by showing favoritism toward the elect. Once these errors are cured by including Scripture supporting MFW, doctrinal harmony is enhanced.

II. Now let us consider Scriptures sometimes cited in descriptions of the TULIP interpretation in light of Romans 1-11. [The study of Romans may be found in Lesson 11 at <truthseekersfellowship.com>]

51. T – Mark 7:21-23 lists some evil thoughts in sinful hearts, but it does not teach that evil people cannot repent. Rather, Jesus states this truth in order to prick sinners’ hearts and lead them to repent of ignoring the commands of God in order to preserve the traditions of men (Mark 7:6-13, R#3&4).

52. U – The only Scripture cited as specifically supporting this point is R#21, but only if universal salvation is also accepted as being taught by the reference to all/many, but Romans 5:17 limits the many to those who receive God’s grace, and Romans 4:16 & 5:1 teach that grace is received through faith, making it the condition for reception (salvation/election).

53. L – In Matthew 20:28 Jesus said that his life is given as a ransom for many (stated also in Hebrews 9:28), but this does not preclude anyone who has faith being included, and Scriptures such as 1Timothy 2:3-4 indicate God’s desire for all to become “many” (John 3:16, Acts 2:21, 1John 2:2), indicating that although Christ’s death atoned for the sins of all humanity, only for those who accept Jesus as Messiah does it result in forgiveness (s/e, R#14&18).

54. I – Phil. 2:13 says that God works in believers to will and act according to His good purpose, but this does not mean that believers do not willingly cooperate (R#23).

55. P – John 10:27-29 states that Jesus gives his sheep eternal life, and no one can snatch them, which is stated by Paul in Romans 8:35-39 as being separated from the love of God in Christ. However, there are numerous Scriptures indicating that a believer may not persevere (including John 8:31, Matt. 10:22& Heb. 10:36), so although God gives endurance per Romans 15:4-5, it too must be received through continued faith (2Cor. 5:7) “from first to last” (Romans 1:17).

 

[Blain DeCastro]

The question is answered by a greater, all encompassing question: What is God's purpose?
God's purpose is HIS GLORY & HIS PLEASURE. I assume God is most glorified by this method of salvation that He has ordained.


Two points:
1) we are required to be obedient
2) we don't know whom God will save and this is the method God has ordained so I assume the best method

God ways are not our ways and His thoughts not our thoughts ... so our reasoning for God's methods probably does not follow.

Ah but you see that is the issue here, see if indeed God has already ordained some to be saved it doesn't matter if we witness to them or not because God has already ordained them to be saved correct?

If he ordained them to be saved then they will be saved with or without our help
Yes we are to be obedient that is one point but then there is the issue of being ordained or predestined, if in fact this is true then God would not have us to minister because those whom he predestined would be saved anyways would they not?

 

[Rookie]

If he ordained them to be saved then they will be saved with or without our help

What if he ordained them to be saved and ordained us to be instruments in which he uses to bring them onto the path of salvation?

 

[Blain DeCastro]

What if he ordained them to be saved and ordained us to be instruments in which he uses to bring them onto the path of salvation?

Well that is the thing it can go both ways but even if the latter didn't happen if they were ordained to begin with then it wouldn't matter if he used us or not because they would have been saved anyways.

After all if he ordains something it happens no matter what

 

[Rookie]

Well that is the thing it can go both ways but even if the latter didn't happen if they were ordained to begin with then it wouldn't matter if he used us or not because they would have been saved anyways.

After all if he ordains something it happens no matter what

We can go both ways, but at the end of the day we won't truly know the mind of God, so that is no excuse for us to not participate in something as glorious as being part of God's plan of salvation.

I personally don't see why it matters whether someone is ordained or not to be saved because we don't know that all we need to focus on is making disciples of men as we were commandef

 

[Blain DeCastro]

We can go both ways, but at the end of the day we won't truly know the mind of God, so that is no excuse for us to not participate in something as glorious as being part of God's plan of salvation.

I personally don't see why it matters whether someone is ordained or not to be saved because we don't know that all we need to focus on is making disciples of men as we were commandef

Well the point I was arguing is that if someone is predestined then why do we try to minister to them when they were already predistined to be saved anyways and for that matter why did Jesus need to die for them when they were already a part of the elect?

See God is no respecter of persons so the idea that one can be predestined to be saved doesn't make sense to me, and if one is predestined then why would he need us to help them get to salvation? He wouldn't because they are already part of the elect

 

[Fastfredy0]

And y'all say?

I don't agree but I don't wish to engage you.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Ah but you see that is the issue here, see if indeed God has already ordained some to be saved it doesn't matter if we witness to them or not because God has already ordained them to be saved correct?

God has also ordained the method by which people will be saved and, though I assume God could do it 10,000 ways, He has chosen the witnessing of men. Since God chose this method I assume it is the best method.

 

[Blain DeCastro]

God has also ordained the method by which people will be saved and, though I assume God could do it 10,000 ways, He has chosen the witnessing of men. Since God chose this method I assume it is the best method.

Yes it is the best method not that he needs man to minister to man but yeah it is true he uses us to minister to each other

But when it comes to salvation if a person is presdestined to be saved and another not then we never know if we are ministering to the right one or if the other is a lost cause

I wonder though because his mind is unfathomable and maybe he has since before creation created some to be saved and others to hell but this does not sound like him it is not the loving father I have come to know so I wonder if really we are looking at this incorrectly through the lens and understanding of man not of God.

 

[Fastfredy0]

But when it comes to salvation if a person is presdestined to be saved and another not then we never know if we are ministering to the right one or if the other is a lost cause

Agreed.

I wonder though because his mind is unfathomable and maybe he has since before creation created some to be saved and others to hell but this does not sound like him it is not the loving father I have come to know so I wonder if really we are looking at this incorrectly through the lens and understanding of man not of God.

Yes, Isaiah 55:8
“For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways,” declares the Lord.
9 “For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways
And My thoughts higher than your thoughts.

 

[JLB]

Yes we are to be obedient that is one point but then there is the issue of being ordained or predestined

Judas Iscariot was predestined to reign and rule with Christ and the other Apostles in the age to come.


So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28

 

[Blain DeCastro]

Agreed.


Yes, Isaiah 55:8
“For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways,” declares the Lord.
9 “For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways
And My thoughts higher than your thoughts.

Yes his thoughts are indeed far higher than ours that much we can agree on however I simply cannot see him out to be a selectionist or one who deems one to be saved but the other condemned from birth

The scriptures even say . 1 Timothy 2:4 states, "God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

Note how it says all not some not few not many but all

 

[Blain DeCastro]

Judas Iscariot was predestined to reign and rule with Christ and the other Apostles in the age to come.


So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28

Even though he betrayed Jesus and apparently killed himself? He still gets to reign with Christ?