Losing ones salvation

[GodsGrace]

God chose Jacob over Esau for purpose not for salvation.

The purpose God chose Jacob for was to be the bloodline lineage of Jesus Christ.

And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.” Romans 9:10-13

Correct...
Predestination is in the bible.
But...
It always refers to:
METHOD......How
PURPOSE.....Why

It does not refer to a specifc persons.

 

[Free]

Correct...
Predestination is in the bible.
But...
It always refers to:
METHOD......How
PURPOSE.....Why

It does not refer to a specifc persons.

Rom 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Rom 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. (ESV)

"Those whom" doesn't refer to specific persons?

Eph 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love
Eph 1:5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,
...
Eph 1:11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, (ESV)

"Us" and "we" don't refer to specific persons?

"Predestined" is a verb, but they are also a part of a sentence which provides context.

 

[GodsGrace]

Rom 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

HOW were they predestined?
To be conformed to the image of the Son.

The PERSON wasn't predestined...
The predestinating was to make that person into the image of His Son.

So that Jesus, being the first-born, would have many brothers.

And yes, God foreknew who would come to believe in Him...
He foreknew WHO would be saved....

but God did not CHOOSE who would be saved...
only
HOW and for PURPOSE.

Rom 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. (ESV)

"Those whom" doesn't refer to specific persons?

Eph 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love

You concentrate on the words HE CHOSE.....

But no...
God chose us IN HIM bebore the foundation of the world......
that we should be holy.

We are In Christ at salvation.
We are saved by Christ
We are IN HIM.

Eph 1:5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,

God predestined His elect....those that believe and obey him.
He predestined us FOR ADOPTION....you concentrate on the words HE PREDESTINED US.

According to the purpose of His will.
The purpose of His will is to adopt us as sons THROUGH JESUS CHRIST...
This was God's plan all along...beginning in Genesis 3.15.

...
Eph 1:11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, (ESV)

In Christ we have our inheritance.
God predestined for us a future in Jesus.

See Ephesians 1:13
13In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed,,,

Paul is teaching the same as in Romans....
1. We listen to the message.
2. We believe.

We listen...we believe.
No predestination.

Romans 1:16-17
16For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
17For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.”

Paul teaches how to be saved:
Romans 1:6-8
6who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
7to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.

"Us" and "we" don't refer to specific persons?

"Predestined" is a verb, but they are also a part of a sentence which provides context.

The context does not include God predestinating, from before time, WHO will be saved and who will be lost.

Acts 16:31 What must I do to be saved?
31and they said, Believe in the Lord Jesus and you shall be saved.

 

[Free]

HOW were they predestined?
To be conformed to the image of the Son.

The PERSON wasn't predestined...
The predestinating was to make that person into the image of His Son.

So that Jesus, being the first-born, would have many brothers.

And yes, God foreknew who would come to believe in Him...
He foreknew WHO would be saved....

but God did not CHOOSE who would be saved...
only
HOW and for PURPOSE.


You concentrate on the words HE CHOSE.....

But no...
God chose us IN HIM bebore the foundation of the world......
that we should be holy.

We are In Christ at salvation.
We are saved by Christ
We are IN HIM.

God predestined His elect....those that believe and obey him.
He predestined us FOR ADOPTION....you concentrate on the words HE PREDESTINED US.

According to the purpose of His will.
The purpose of His will is to adopt us as sons THROUGH JESUS CHRIST...
This was God's plan all along...beginning in Genesis 3.15.

In Christ we have our inheritance.
God predestined for us a future in Jesus.

See Ephesians 1:13
13In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed,,,

Paul is teaching the same as in Romans....
1. We listen to the message.
2. We believe.

We listen...we believe.
No predestination.

Romans 1:16-17
16For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
17For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.”

Paul teaches how to be saved:
Romans 1:6-8
6who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
7to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.



The context does not include God predestinating, from before time, WHO will be saved and who will be lost.

Acts 16:31 What must I do to be saved?
31and they said, Believe in the Lord Jesus and you shall be saved.

People are predestined. Lol! They are specific people predestined by God to certain things, such as being conformed to the image of the Son. I'm not going to participate in this thread. It's already way off the rails.

 

[Groovy]

Be very careful with arguments such as this. There are legitimate differences in understanding certain things in Scripture, and someone could say the very same about you. We all "see in a mirror dimly."

Amen re the mirror, which is why I invite folks to say nicely when and how they think I am wrong,
so please feel free to do what you did.
(pun intended :^)

 

[Groovy]

Yes precisely thank you for helping me to relay that

Hey Blain, I have been asked to lead a discussion of Lesson 2 on our website if you or anyone would like to join that thread, which is called The teachings (doctrine) of Christ; The Truth by JLB in the Soteriology section of the Topical Studies section of the Christian Growth section. (If I knew how to create a link, I would :^)

 

[Blain DeCastro]

Hey Blain, I have been asked to lead a discussion of Lesson 2 on our website if you or anyone would like to join that thread, which is called The teachings (doctrine) of Christ; The Truth by JLB in the Soteriology section of the Topical Studies section of the Christian Growth section. (If I knew how to create a link, I would :^)

Sure I will check it out

 

[Eli1+]

Going every Sunday to liturgy in Orthodox temple (church), also on the days that it have service, for example specific saint days. Fast half year, as Orthodox fast much, which is to say keeping all the fast periods, which is half year nonstop if seen as a whole. Going also to Orthodox Church when you can to pray and fire a candle. Reading Bible, reading Orthodox books. Having prayer rule to pray with specific prayers from your Orthodox Prayer Book at least morning and evening. Praying nonstop with Jesus's prayer and other prayers, or at least when you can. Keeping what the saints said in books. Keeping the whole Bible, as in NT is said about the OT books. Keeping the specific teachings of Jesus and NT. Keeping what the Orthodox church teaches. Keeping what your priest telling you. Confessing your sins to your priest, as Jesus gave authority to forgive sins to the apostles, as you can read in Bible. Going for Holy Communion regularly. Asking God for Holy Spirit, for angel guide and for help each time you need it. Trying to avoid sin and always keep the ten commandments. Not denying the law of God that Orthodox church accept as core of the faith. Having icons at home that you honor. Knowing that your priest is always right and knows what is best for you. Confessing your sins also directly to God. Having faith and works. Being baptized and chrismated into the Orthodox faith. Being a doer of the word not only a listener, as scripture teaches. Having Bible in home and other Orthodox books and following everything you read. Being humble and always do the will of God. Working toward your salvation (entering Heaven), with all your strength. Loving God, loving neighbor and as Jesus said loving your enemy. Loving the brothers in faith as Jesus said love one another. Praying for all Orthodox Christians, as in our Prayer Books there is prayers only for the Orthodox Christians. My priest said that all non Orthodox are false witness. He not accept other churches, because to us it is obvious that Jesus created only the Orthodox church. There is evidence of miracles within our church, so it is true church, but I will not discuss other churches, if there is "other churches".

Thank you for sharing this beautiful post.

 

[Eli1+]

Yes, there is only one orthodox church, which is why I used that term in my suggestion for a creed,
but the mark of a heretical cult is claiming to be the only true church, which is what Roman Catholicism did during the Inquisition and what Joseph Smith claimed regarding the Mormons. The obedience demanded by such cults perverts the true Gospel, so what Paul said in Galatians applies.

But wouldn't you yourself be considered a 'heretical cult' sailor if you think that only you knows who the true church is?
Let me know what you think about this. I'd love to see your response.

 

[Eli1+]

And y'all say?

The free-will debate is an endless eternal debate.
I'm with the 'limited free will' camp which also fits with the understanding of Theosis in the Orthodox Church which is a co-operative relationship with God.

 

[Eli1+]

Groovy, respectfully, could you explain your thoughts with plain, instead of professorial, everyday language? Your explanations are hard to follow and don't make a lot of sense to me, even though God has blessed me with English and Divinity Master's Degree, plus 8 years of English teaching and 27 years as a pastor. I have spent many years trying to communicate clearly to people, especially as a published author during the last 17 years.

In plain English, please explain your objections to TULIP, and I'll respond. Thanks. Your friend, Bruce Leiter the Writer.

A lot of people don't understand his way of communication and they have pointed it out to him.
Not gonna change tho so enjoy it.

 

[Eli1+]

GG, take what Eli says with a cup of salt, because I am not sure what is in his coffee.
You and I think alike, so what he just said of me please feel free to reply as if he were critiquing you--
because I cannot teach him anything.

The fact that you think you can teach is where i get a little smile on your face due to your lack of self-awareness again.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Again no reference to selective salvation, it speaks of people being spoken of highly yes but this is not about him prefering some to be saved and others not

I don't agree so I brought in an arbiter ... ChatGPT

Question:
list 3 biblical references in which God caused a person's salvation

Answer:
Here are three examples in Scripture where God is directly shown as the cause of a person’s salvation:

1. Acts 16:14 – “The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul.”
   • Lydia’s conversion is attributed to God opening her heart, not to her independent initiative.
2. Ephesians 2:8–9 – “For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.”
   • Paul makes it clear that salvation—including the faith to believe—is God’s gift.
3. Jonah 2:9 – “Salvation belongs to the Lord!”
   • Jonah declares from the belly of the fish that salvation is entirely God’s work and under His control.

If you want, I can give you three more examples where the text shows God actively granting repentance or belief.

 

[JLB]

I don't agree so I brought in an arbiter ... ChatGPT

Question:
list 3 biblical references in which God caused a person's salvation

Answer:
Here are three examples in Scripture where God is directly shown as the cause of a person’s salvation:

1. Acts 16:14 – “The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul.”
   • Lydia’s conversion is attributed to God opening her heart, not to her independent initiative.
2. Ephesians 2:8–9 – “For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.”
   • Paul makes it clear that salvation—including the faith to believe—is God’s gift.
3. Jonah 2:9 – “Salvation belongs to the Lord!”
   • Jonah declares from the belly of the fish that salvation is entirely God’s work and under His control.

If you want, I can give you three more examples where the text shows God actively granting repentance or belief.

Therefore, sailing from Troas, we ran a straight course to Samothrace, and the next day came to Neapolis, and from there to Philippi, which is the foremost city of that part of Macedonia, a colony. And we were staying in that city for some days. And on the Sabbath day we went out of the city to the riverside, where prayer was customarily made; and we sat down and spoke to the women who met there. Now a certain woman named Lydia heard us. She was a seller of purple from the city of Thyatira, who worshiped God. The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul. And when she and her household were baptized, she begged us, saying, “If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come to my house and stay.” So she persuaded us.
Acts 16:11-15

Did God open her heart because Paul who travelled some great distance to reach the city of Philippi spoke to her the message of the Gospel?

Or did God “Sovereignly” save her?

Was she saved before she heard the Gospel or because she heard the Gospel?

 

[Blain DeCastro]

I don't agree so I brought in an arbiter ... ChatGPT

Question:
list 3 biblical references in which God caused a person's salvation

Answer:
Here are three examples in Scripture where God is directly shown as the cause of a person’s salvation:

1. Acts 16:14 – “The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul.”
   • Lydia’s conversion is attributed to God opening her heart, not to her independent initiative.
2. Ephesians 2:8–9 – “For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.”
   • Paul makes it clear that salvation—including the faith to believe—is God’s gift.
3. Jonah 2:9 – “Salvation belongs to the Lord!”
   • Jonah declares from the belly of the fish that salvation is entirely God’s work and under His control.

If you want, I can give you three more examples where the text shows God actively granting repentance or belief.

Ok but that also doesn't show that he does this for all does it? and it certainly doesn't show that he chooses to save some and others not

 

[GodsGrace]

I don't agree but I don't wish to engage you.

Yeah, tough going with Groovy .

 

[Blain DeCastro]

Yeah, tough going with Groovy .

He means well, he and I don't always agree but he does mean well

 

[GodsGrace]

Groovy, respectfully, could you explain your thoughts with plain, instead of professorial, everyday language? Your explanations are hard to follow and don't make a lot of sense to me, even though God has blessed me with English and Divinity Master's Degree, plus 8 years of English teaching and 27 years as a pastor. I have spent many years trying to communicate clearly to people, especially as a published author during the last 17 years.

In plain English, please explain your objections to TULIP, and I'll respond. Thanks. Your friend, Bruce Leiter the Writer.

Groovy is a bit scholarly....
Here's the understanding of an unscholarly person.....me (in green):

M – God’s requirement for salvation (GRFS) is a Moral condition called faith, which is manifested as seeking God’s righteousness or salvation, which in turn presumes sufficient human volition even for sinners to make them morally accountable.
The NT teaches that faith is necessary for salvation.
In order for this to be true...we must have the freedom to choose faith or not....
thus making us morally accountable to God for our decision.

F – God enables all morally accountable souls sufficient Freedom to satisfy GRFS—or not, because His grace is not irresistible, which means sinners are accountable and justly condemned when they do not repent and accept Christ’s atonement for their sins
Man can resist God, or not.....thus making him accountable, morally, to God.
This freedom will cause everyone to be JUSTLY saved or condemned.

W – Faith is almost synonymous with Will, but volition focuses on faith as cooperation with God (or not), and cooperating with God by accepting His grace is NOT meritorious or working to earn heaven or salvation by obeying moral laws.
Accepting God's grace is an action of our will....
Not a work, as some Reformists/Calvinists state.
We COOPERATE with God for our salvation.
This is not a work (meritorious).

Unconditionally electing only some is by definition showing favoritism, but of course tulipists do not admit it.
If God causes some to be saved and not other,,,by HIS CHOICE from before time,,,,
this would make God show favoritism, which the NT teaches is totally contrary to God.
(will supply verses IF needed).
I will add, of my own, that it would also make God an UNJUST God....
Calvinists hate to define the word JUSTICE.
Easy to understand why.

 

[GodsGrace]

He means well, he and I don't always agree but he does mean well

Brian,,,we're not going to agree on everything.
There are some basics that Christians SHOULD agree on.
One would be the nature of §God.
Calvinism changes the nature of God.
This is no small matter.

What Calvinism teaches creates so many conflicts within the NT that it's a wonder to me
that anyone would base an entire belief system on what some Manichean gnostic from the 5th century that decided to become Catholic and taught what was NEVER taught before. I'm speaking, of course, of Augustine.

And all because he believed man has no free will...

 

[GodsGrace]

I don't agree so I brought in an arbiter ... ChatGPT

Question:
list 3 biblical references in which God caused a person's salvation

Answer:
Here are three examples in Scripture where God is directly shown as the cause of a person’s salvation:

1. Acts 16:14 – “The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul.”
   • Lydia’s conversion is attributed to God opening her heart, not to her independent initiative.
2. Ephesians 2:8–9 – “For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.”
   • Paul makes it clear that salvation—including the faith to believe—is God’s gift.
3. Jonah 2:9 – “Salvation belongs to the Lord!”
   • Jonah declares from the belly of the fish that salvation is entirely God’s work and under His control.

If you want, I can give you three more examples where the text shows God actively granting repentance or belief.

Is ChatGPT your new professor of theology?

I suppose you might know that the answer depends on how you ask the question...

Here is how Professor ChatGPT states we receive salvation:
Do you see predestination in there, anywhere??
No.
Ah...the wonders of AI.




In Christian belief, a person is saved by putting their faith and trust in Jesus Christ's sacrifice for their sins, accepting Him as their Lord and Savior. This involves repentance, turning away from sin, and believing in Jesus' death and resurrection as the means to be forgiven and reconciled with God.

Here's a more detailed breakdown:
1. Recognizing Sin and Need for Salvation:

• The Bible teaches that all humans have sinned and fall short of God's glory, and the consequence of sin is death (separation from God).
• This realization of sinfulness and the need for a savior is the first step towards salvation.

2. Repentance and Faith in Jesus:

• To be saved, one must turn away from their sinful ways (repentance) and believe that Jesus Christ died for their sins and rose again.
• This faith involves trusting in Jesus' sacrifice as the only way to be forgiven and reconciled with God.

3. Receiving God's Grace and Mercy:

• When a person accepts Jesus through faith, they are considered to be born again, receiving God's grace and mercy.
  
• This act of faith results in a spiritual transformation and a new relationship with God.
  

4. Salvation is a Gift:

• Christianity emphasizes that salvation is a gift from God, not something that can be earned through good works or religious rituals.
• It is received through faith in Jesus Christ.

5. Ongoing Process:

• While salvation is received through faith, it is also a process of ongoing growth in faith and discipleship.
• Christians are encouraged to live a life that reflects their faith and to grow in their relationship with God.

In essence, salvation in Christianity is a transformative experience initiated by God's grace, received through faith in Jesus Christ, and resulting in a new life and relationship with God.