Losing ones salvation

[Rookie]

Well the point I was arguing is that if someone is predestined then why do we try to minister to them when they were already predistined to be saved anyways and for that matter why did Jesus need to die for them when they were already a part of the elect?

See God is no respecter of persons so the idea that one can be predestined to be saved doesn't make sense to me, and if one is predestined then why would he need us to help them get to salvation? He wouldn't because they are already part of the elect

That's the thing, yes God knows who he predestined, but we don't . So that's why it's our goal to spread the gospel to everybody cuz we don't know who God predestined for salvation or not.

And let me tweak your wording a bit, you asked if God is the one who predestined people then why would he need us to help them get to salvation. That's the very thing, he doesn't NEED us, he WANTS us to help with salvation.

Remember God is a relational god, so he doesn't do these things and involve Us in his Divine affairs because he needs us to, he wants us to be a part of that. Just like a parent doesn't need anything from there four year old kid, but they include them on tasks because they want them to be a part of that. That's how they relationally grow and bond.

Have you ever thought that the reason we need to minister, is because in part of God's predestination process, he predestined us to help in that salvation because he wanted us to be a part of his work. Like any loving father he's going to want to include his kids.

 

[Blain DeCastro]

That's the thing, yes God knows who he predestined, but we don't . So that's why it's our goal to spread the gospel to everybody cuz we don't know who God predestined for salvation or not.

And let me tweak your wording a bit, you asked if God is the one who predestined people then why would he need us to help them get to salvation. That's the very thing, he doesn't NEED us, he WANTS us to help with salvation.

Remember God is a relational god, so he doesn't do these things and involve Us in his Divine affairs because he needs us to, he wants us to be a part of that. Just like a parent doesn't need anything from there four year old kid, but they include them on tasks because they want them to be a part of that. That's how they relationally grow and bond.

Have you ever thought that the reason we need to minister, is because in part of God's predestination process, he predestined us to help in that salvation because he wanted us to be a part of his work. Like any loving father he's going to want to include his kids.

Yes I would say this is a good way of looking at it.

 

[Groovy]

I don't agree but I don't wish to engage you.

Wish granted. Happy trails!

 

[Groovy]

Jesus and Paul both taught that salvation can be lost.
It's plain and clear in the NT.

Christ will never say "I don't know you anymore"...if you remain in Christ.
If you walk according to the spirit and not the flesh...
If you obey God...
you will never become lost.

YOU leave God...
God does not leave YOU.

Sometimes we "lack" faith, or question it or question something about God.
This does not mean we are no longer IN CHRIST.
Our departure from Christ must be willingly.

No one questions God's work.
He gives the same opportunity to all.
Believe
Obey
That's it.

Again...
Christ does NOT let US go...
WE let HIM go...

GG, I noticed that you quoted EPH 2:8-9 without v. 10, and here you say "believe, obey", so I want to share a recent insight: There is no qualitative difference between faith that accepts God’s saving grace at conversion and faith that accepts God’s working grace and motivates good works while walking/living (Eph. 2:8-10, 2Cor. 5:7), but only a quantitative difference as each additional moment passes–and of course faith remains non-meritorious during the saint’s entire lifetime, from first to last (Rom. 1:17). Good works (Eph. 2:10) are also given by God.

 

[Groovy]

Yes. So true.


The biblical word believe means commit, trust, and obey.

Believe and obey are used interchangeably in scripture.


He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36 NKJV

He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36 NASB


IOW’s unbelief is disobedience


Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience. Hebrews 4:8 NKJV

Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: Hebrews 4:8 KJV


To follow Him means to follow His pattern of lifestyle, which is to say obey Him.


Eternal salvation is promised to those who obey Him.


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, Hebrews 5:9

I share your concern to define the meaning of "believe", which is what I also have endeavored to do via compiling various verses in the 5-point creed I posted previously, which may be found in Lesson 2 of a website that I call "ours" because I invite y'all to use it as a resource <truthseekersfellowship.com> and to submit suggestions/feedback for improvement. For example, I just added mention of grace and Christ's return to the creed at someone's suggestion.

 

[Groovy]

Hello Grace.
Me and this man know each other from another forum and i like his personality which makes me laugh sometimes.
I know he loves God but the way he expresses himself is very funny to me because he wants 100% military compliance due to spending his entire life in the military.
He's also not very self-aware on a lot of things he says about others for which he does himself to others.
One of the points is that he likes to pick a small word or even a comma simply because he wants his way and then says other things like "we need unity" while causing dis-unity because he doesn't forgive and wants his way or the highway.
So with this being said, i am returning the favor to him by disagreeing with point 5 where he says "that will eventually achieve heaven".
No one knows who achieves Heaven But God.

The thing is, if i scrutinize his messages to the level of detail that he does to others, he is simply unable to process that. I know this because on the other forum i asked him specific questions of salvation and he wasn't able to answer.

So long story short Grace me and him are long-time coffee buddies and we enjoy each-other's company over a coffee whether it's Cafe Christian Forum or Cafe Christian Chat.

God bless you always and i appreciate your comments which include wisdom and grace.

GG, take what Eli says with a cup of salt, because I am not sure what is in his coffee.
You and I think alike, so what he just said of me please feel free to reply as if he were critiquing you--
because I cannot teach him anything.

 

[Fastfredy0]

I simply cannot see him out to be a selectionist or one who deems one to be saved but the other condemned from birth

Example 1 of God "selecting".
The phrase "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated" comes from the Bible, specifically Malachi 1:2-3 and Romans 9:13. It refers to God's choice of Jacob over Esau, not necessarily implying personal hatred towards Esau, but rather a preference in lineage and purpose within God's plan. This choice was made before the twins were born, highlighting God's sovereignty and purpose in election, not based on their actions.

Example 2 of God "selecting".
The statement "if I had done in Sodom and Gomorrah" refers to a quote from Jesus in the Gospels, specifically Matthew 11:23, which discusses the judgment of cities like Capernaum and compares them to Sodom and Gomorrah. Jesus states that if the miracles he performed in Capernaum had been done in Sodom, the city would have repented and remained standing to that day.

The scriptures even say . 1 Timothy 2:4 states, "God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

Well, this explanation will be more technical. Short story, the word ALL is ambiguous. All requires that a group be identified to clear up the meaning. Definition of ALL: used to refer to the whole quantity or extent of a particular group or thing.
By way of example, I list 2 verses where it is obvious that ALL does NOT mean everyone without exception as you imply it does in 1 Timothy 2:4.

• 2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls and compels us, because we have concluded this, that One died for all, therefore all died; 15 and He died for all, so that all those who live would no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and was raised for their sake. It is self-evident that “all without exception” do NOT live for Christ}
• Matthew 3:5 At that time Jerusalem was going out to him, and all Judea and all the district around the Jordan; it would be incredulous to believe everyone including babies, the blind, the disabled went to see Jesus

I grant that ALL in 1 Timothy 2:4 could mean everyone without exception but it is not clear. When a verse is not clear one such seek explicit verses to clear things up such as the 2 above I mentioned in which God selected people.

 

[Blain DeCastro]

Example 1 of God "selecting".
The phrase "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated" comes from the Bible, specifically Malachi 1:2-3 and Romans 9:13. It refers to God's choice of Jacob over Esau, not necessarily implying personal hatred towards Esau, but rather a preference in lineage and purpose within God's plan. This choice was made before the twins were born, highlighting God's sovereignty and purpose in election, not based on their actions.

Example 2 of God "selecting".
The statement "if I had done in Sodom and Gomorrah" refers to a quote from Jesus in the Gospels, specifically Matthew 11:23, which discusses the judgment of cities like Capernaum and compares them to Sodom and Gomorrah. Jesus states that if the miracles he performed in Capernaum had been done in Sodom, the city would have repented and remained standing to that day.




Well, this explanation will be more technical. Short story, the word ALL is ambiguous. All requires that a group be identified to clear up the meaning. Definition of ALL: used to refer to the whole quantity or extent of a particular group or thing.
By way of example, I list 2 verses where it is obvious that ALL does NOT mean everyone without exception as you imply it does in 1 Timothy 2:4.

• 2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls and compels us, because we have concluded this, that One died for all, therefore all died; 15 and He died for all, so that all those who live would no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and was raised for their sake. It is self-evident that “all without exception” do NOT live for Christ}
• Matthew 3:5 At that time Jerusalem was going out to him, and all Judea and all the district around the Jordan; it would be incredulous to believe everyone including babies, the blind, the disabled went to see Jesus

I grant that ALL in 1 Timothy 2:4 could mean everyone without exception but it is not clear. When a verse is not clear one such seek explicit verses to clear things up such as the 2 above I mentioned in which God selected people.

In both the examples you provided God shows a preference but this does not seem to be a salvation kind of selection in fact salvation isn't even mentioned in them. and as for your implication of the word all why the need to try to make it says something it isn't? it says what it says no need to overcomplicate it. it is not as if the author was trying to conceal the meaning of all he said what he said and meant what he meant

 

[Fastfredy0]

In both the examples you provided God shows a preference but this does not seem to be a salvation kind of selection in fact salvation isn't even mentioned in them.

Valid point, but there is an implicit leaning towards salvation to some degree. I can give more explicit examples:

1. Matthew 16:16 Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed), the Son of the living God.” 17 Then Jesus answered him, “Blessed [happy, spiritually secure, favored by God] are you, Simon son of Jonah, because flesh and blood (mortal man) did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.
2. Acts 2:1-43 Three thousand person were converted on the day of Pentecost. Most of them had seen the person and the works of Christ. They had heard his instructions. They had hitherto resisted all the influences flowing from the exhibition of his character and the truth of his doctrines. Their conversion was sudden, apparently instantaneous. It was not a natural change, effected by the influence of truth on the mind, or produced by a process of moral suasion.
3. All of Israel will be saved in the future. This is an example of salvation by God’s choice; not mans. Jeremiah 31:33-34; Ezekiel 36:24-28, Romans 11:26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish unGodliness from Jacob”; 27 “and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins.”
4. Acts 9:1-9 Paul’s conversion … If ever there was a man who willed to follow God it was Paul. Yet, Paul was an unbeliever until Christ directly intervenes. …
5. Act 16:14 One of those listening was a woman named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth from the city of Thyatira, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul's message.
6. Romans 11:4 And what was God's answer to him? "I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal." [The verb ‘reserved’ is an action attributed to God, not the 7,000 men)
7. Galatians 1:15 But when He, Who had chosen and set me apart [even] before I was born and had called me by His grace (His undeserved favor and blessing), saw fit and was pleased 16 to reveal His Son in me

 

[GodsGrace]

Hello Grace.
Me and this man know each other from another forum and i like his personality which makes me laugh sometimes.
I know he loves God but the way he expresses himself is very funny to me because he wants 100% military compliance due to spending his entire life in the military.
He's also not very self-aware on a lot of things he says about others for which he does himself to others.
One of the points is that he likes to pick a small word or even a comma simply because he wants his way and then says other things like "we need unity" while causing dis-unity because he doesn't forgive and wants his way or the highway.
So with this being said, i am returning the favor to him by disagreeing with point 5 where he says "that will eventually achieve heaven".
No one knows who achieves Heaven But God.

The thing is, if i scrutinize his messages to the level of detail that he does to others, he is simply unable to process that. I know this because on the other forum i asked him specific questions of salvation and he wasn't able to answer.

So long story short Grace me and him are long-time coffee buddies and we enjoy each-other's company over a coffee whether it's Cafe Christian Forum or Cafe Christian Chat.

God bless you always and i appreciate your comments which include wisdom and grace.

Friends can disagree...no problem.
I think it's healthy to discuss our faith.

I read number 5 and it sounds perfectly fine to me and was just wondering why you find fault with it.

We'll be meeting up at other times....

 

[GodsGrace]

In both the examples you provided God shows a preference but this does not seem to be a salvation kind of selection in fact salvation isn't even mentioned in them. and as for your implication of the word all why the need to try to make it says something it isn't? it says what it says no need to overcomplicate it. it is not as if the author was trying to conceal the meaning of all he said what he said and meant what he meant

You're right Blain.
Romans 9 is not speaking about personal salvation at all.
So easy to see, as you've pointed out.
It's explaining to the Jews why God has grafted in the Gentiles because they were complaining about it.

§The end of Romans 9 explains a lot:

Romans 9:25-30
25As He says also in Hosea,
“I WILL CALL THOSE WHO WERE NOT MY PEOPLE, ‘MY PEOPLE,’
AND HER WHO WAS NOT BELOVED, ‘BELOVED.’”

26“AND IT SHALL BE THAT IN THE PLACE WHERE IT WAS SAID TO THEM, ‘YOU ARE NOT MY PEOPLE,’
THERE THEY SHALL BE CALLED SONS OF THE LIVING GOD.”

27Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, “THOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE SONS OF ISRAEL BE LIKE THE SAND OF THE SEA, IT IS THE REMNANT THAT WILL BE SAVED; 28FOR THE LORD WILL EXECUTE HIS WORD ON THE EARTH, THOROUGHLY AND QUICKLY.”

29And just as Isaiah foretold,
“UNLESS THE LORD OF SABAOTH HAD LEFT TO US A POSTERITY,
WE WOULD HAVE BECOME LIKE SODOM, AND WOULD HAVE RESEMBLED GOMORRAH.”

30What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; 31but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. 32Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,

 

[GodsGrace]

GG, I noticed that you quoted EPH 2:8-9 without v. 10, and here you say "believe, obey", so I want to share a recent insight: There is no qualitative difference between faith that accepts God’s saving grace at conversion and faith that accepts God’s working grace and motivates good works while walking/living (Eph. 2:8-10, 2Cor. 5:7), but only a quantitative difference as each additional moment passes–and of course faith remains non-meritorious during the saint’s entire lifetime, from first to last (Rom. 1:17). Good works (Eph. 2:10) are also given by God.

Agreed.

It is our faith in God and the help of the Holy Spirit that gives us the motivation to do good works and to obey God.
As Ephesians 2:10 states: we are created for good works.

BUT
I find a big problem with those that state that good works are not necessary...
or that good works do not keep us saved.....(does NOT doing good works keep us saved?).
I've even read some that state that doing good works is sinful because it assumes that Christ's work was not sufficient and must be added to.

As long as we have faith in God and obey Him to the best of our ability,
we can know we have eternal security.

 

[for_his_glory]

@for_his_glory, those passages do not say directly that the people who were saved lost it.

Of course they do not, but say that those who are truly His own will never lose their salvation that is in Christ.
The only thing that can separate us from the love of God is blasphemy against His Holy Spirit, Matthew 12:31, which means coming against God and anyone who is truly sealed by His Spirit will not want to come against Him, but draw even closer to Him.

Many claim the name of Jesus through lip service only and have never truly been Spiritually born again and their names are not found written in the Lambs book of life for they add to and take away from the word of God, 2Timothy3:5; Rev 22:18, 19, even though they assume their names are there. Have they lost their salvation, no, because they never had Gods salvation to begin with. John 15; Matthew7:16, 20; Galatians 5:22; 2Peter 2:22 speaks of those who assume they are of Christ, but their branch did not remain in Christ as they bare no fruit. They remain in their own will and not Gods will. These are the ones who will not be able to endure unto the end and will not be saved and will hear Jesus say, "I never knew you", Matthew 7:21-23.

Those who are Spiritually born again, John 3:3-7, and have risen with Christ, Colossians 3:1-4, are those whose names are found written in the Lambs book of life. If we endure and overcome all persecution, even to the physical death of this flesh, for the sake of Christ we will live and have eternal life with the Father. We are not saved at the moment of confession of faith that is Christ Jesus, Romans 10:9,10, but only sealed by God who keeps us and will help us to endure all things of this world, John 14:26; John 6:26-29; 2Corinthians 1:21, 22.

Once saved always saved are only those who are in Christ and endure all persecutions, trials and tribulation as they stand strong in their faith, which is Christ Jesus, unto the end of days here on Earth as then they are saved from the lake of fire as their names are found written in the Lambs book of life which is eternal life with the Father. Let us be the Church of Philadelphia as the Church of Laodicea God will spew out of His mouth, Rev 3:7-22.

Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

​

 

[Groovy]

Agreed.

It is our faith in God and the help of the Holy Spirit that gives us the motivation to do good works and to obey God.
As Ephesians 2:10 states: we are created for good works.

BUT
I find a big problem with those that state that good works are not necessary...
or that good works do not keep us saved.....(does NOT doing good works keep us saved?).
I've even read some that state that doing good works is sinful because it assumes that Christ's work was not sufficient and must be added to.

As long as we have faith in God and obey Him to the best of our ability,
we can know we have eternal security.

Yes, and I suspect the reason those divorce works from faith is because they have not had the insight that I just shared and only received recently due to discussions with them that made me realize my tendency to do the same--and that divorcing them is wrong per the Scripture I cited.

The reason for my error was that I was neglecting to say "good" before works, and I realized that works could only be good or godly because God was giving/gracing believers with the motivation and ability to manifest His love in such ways as listed in Gal. 5:22-23.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, and I suspect the reason those divorce works from faith is because they have not had the insight that I just shared and only received recently due to discussions with them that made me realize my tendency to do the same--and that divorcing them is wrong per the Scripture I cited.

The reason for my error was that I was neglecting to say "good" before works, and I realized that works could only be good or godly because God was giving/gracing believers with the motivation and ability to manifest His love in such ways as listed in Gal. 5:22-23.

Works could be understood by some to be the works of THE LAW.
But I think that if we want to be honest about Paul's teachings (or any of the writers) we have to know that, except in some cases in Romans, works means GOOD WORKS,,,and NOT works of The Law.

Agreed.

 

[Groovy]

Works could be understood by some to be the works of THE LAW.
But I think that if we want to be honest about Paul's teachings (or any of the writers) we have to know that, except in some cases in Romans, works means GOOD WORKS,,,and NOT works of The Law.

Agreed.

Yes, exactly. Isn't reconciling Scriptures fun?
Yet it seems like few have discovered how rewarding it can be!
Most seem content either to double-think or to ignore Scriptures supporting the interpretation
they have been taught is wrong.

 

[Blain DeCastro]

You're right Blain.
Romans 9 is not speaking about personal salvation at all.
So easy to see, as you've pointed out.
It's explaining to the Jews why God has grafted in the Gentiles because they were complaining about it.

§The end of Romans 9 explains a lot:

Romans 9:25-30
25As He says also in Hosea,
“I WILL CALL THOSE WHO WERE NOT MY PEOPLE, ‘MY PEOPLE,’
AND HER WHO WAS NOT BELOVED, ‘BELOVED.’”

26“AND IT SHALL BE THAT IN THE PLACE WHERE IT WAS SAID TO THEM, ‘YOU ARE NOT MY PEOPLE,’
THERE THEY SHALL BE CALLED SONS OF THE LIVING GOD.”

27Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, “THOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE SONS OF ISRAEL BE LIKE THE SAND OF THE SEA, IT IS THE REMNANT THAT WILL BE SAVED; 28FOR THE LORD WILL EXECUTE HIS WORD ON THE EARTH, THOROUGHLY AND QUICKLY.”

29And just as Isaiah foretold,
“UNLESS THE LORD OF SABAOTH HAD LEFT TO US A POSTERITY,
WE WOULD HAVE BECOME LIKE SODOM, AND WOULD HAVE RESEMBLED GOMORRAH.”

30What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; 31but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. 32Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,

Yes precisely thank you for helping me to relay that

 

[JLB]

Example 1 of God "selecting".
The phrase "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated" comes from the Bible, specifically Malachi 1:2-3 and Romans 9:13. It refers to God's choice of Jacob over Esau, not necessarily implying personal hatred towards Esau, but rather a preference in lineage and purpose within God's plan. This choice was made before the twins were born, highlighting God's sovereignty and purpose in election, not based on their actions.

God chose Jacob over Esau for purpose not for salvation.

The purpose God chose Jacob for was to be the bloodline lineage of Jesus Christ.

And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.” Romans 9:10-13

 

[Blain DeCastro]

Valid point, but there is an implicit leaning towards salvation to some degree. I can give more explicit examples:

1. Matthew 16:16 Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed), the Son of the living God.” 17 Then Jesus answered him, “Blessed [happy, spiritually secure, favored by God] are you, Simon son of Jonah, because flesh and blood (mortal man) did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.
2. Acts 2:1-43 Three thousand person were converted on the day of Pentecost. Most of them had seen the person and the works of Christ. They had heard his instructions. They had hitherto resisted all the influences flowing from the exhibition of his character and the truth of his doctrines. Their conversion was sudden, apparently instantaneous. It was not a natural change, effected by the influence of truth on the mind, or produced by a process of moral suasion.
3. All of Israel will be saved in the future. This is an example of salvation by God’s choice; not mans. Jeremiah 31:33-34; Ezekiel 36:24-28, Romans 11:26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish unGodliness from Jacob”; 27 “and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins.”
4. Acts 9:1-9 Paul’s conversion … If ever there was a man who willed to follow God it was Paul. Yet, Paul was an unbeliever until Christ directly intervenes. …
5. Act 16:14 One of those listening was a woman named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth from the city of Thyatira, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul's message.
6. Romans 11:4 And what was God's answer to him? "I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal." [The verb ‘reserved’ is an action attributed to God, not the 7,000 men)
7. Galatians 1:15 But when He, Who had chosen and set me apart [even] before I was born and had called me by His grace (His undeserved favor and blessing), saw fit and was pleased 16 to reveal His Son in me

Again no reference to selective salvation, it speaks of people being spoken of highly yes but this is not about him prefering some to be saved and others not

 

[Free]

Yes, exactly. Isn't reconciling Scriptures fun?
Yet it seems like few have discovered how rewarding it can be!
Most seem content either to double-think or to ignore Scriptures supporting the interpretation
they have been taught is wrong.

Be very careful with arguments such as this. There are legitimate differences in understanding certain things in Scripture, and someone could say the very same about you. We all "see in a mirror dimly."