Elijah/ Enoch

[awaken]

I was taught that Elijah and Enoch would be the two witnesses during the tribulation because they never died..God took them. But after some research into this I believe that they did die and were in paradise(a compartment in Hades) when Jesus set the captives free.

I believe the righteous people who died before the cross all went down to the Paradise compartment in Hades. But then how do we explain what happened to Elijah?

"As they [Elijah and Elisha] were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind." (2 Kings 2:11)

This verse says that Elijah went up to "Heaven" in a whirlwind. Since Elijah was a righteous man who lived before the cross, shouldn't he have gone down to the Paradise compartment of Hades?

If we interpret 2 Kings 2:11 (above) as saying that Elijah went directly up to the "third Heaven" (where God lives) then we run into problems with other passages of Scripture. For example, notice that Paul said that we will all be "changed" ("translated") from mortality to immortality when Jesus returns at the Rapture because flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God:

"I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed--in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality." (1 Corinthians 15:50-53)

"But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body." (Philippians 3:20-21)

These passages say that our mortal bodies will be "glorified" or "changed" or "translated" when Jesus returns for us at the Rapture and takes us up into Heaven. The implication is that we can't go into Heaven in our mortal flesh-and-blood bodies, so how could Elijah have physically gone into Heaven in the whirlwind? The only way to explain it would be to say that he was "translated" and given his glorified, immortal body, but how was it possible for Elijah to become glorified and immortal before Jesus' death and resurrection? After all, the only reason why humans are able to gain entrance into Heaven is because Jesus made this possible, yet Elijah was carried up to "Heaven" long before Jesus was born.

Another problem is that Jesus specifically said that no-one has ever gone into Heaven:

"No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven--the Son of Man." (John 3:13)
Jesus said that no-one other than Himself had ever gone into Heaven, so why does 2 Kings 2:11 (above) say that Elijah went up to "Heaven" long before Jesus was born?

Sometimes people interpret John 3:13 (above) as meaning that no-one had ever ascended into heaven and then returned to talk about it. However, Jesus specifically said that no-one had ever gone into Heaven. In fact, Jesus also said:
"No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known." (John 1:18)

"No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father." (John 6:46)

Consider that God the Father lives in Heaven (the "third Heaven"), so if no-one had ever seen the Father then this means that no-one had ever gone into the "third Heaven" (because if we believe otherwise then we would need to prove that a person could go into the "third Heaven" and not see God). Since Jesus said that no-one had ever gone into Heaven, and He said that no-one had ever seen God, then Elijah could not have been taken up into the "third Heaven" where God lives.

Here's another explanation of 2 Kings 2:11 (above) which resolves these apparent contradictions, and which fits with the rest of the evidence in the Bible concerning Paradise and Hades. Recall that Bible scholars say that the ancient Jews considered the "first Heaven" to be the sky, and they considered the "second Heaven" to be where the stars are, and the "third Heaven" was considered to be where God's throne is. Since the word "Heaven" has different meanings, it's possible that Elijah was simply carried by the whirlwind up into the "first Heaven" (the sky). Notice that the prophets from Jericho who witnessed the whirlwind sent 50 men to search for Elijah (2 Kings 2:15-17). They didn't find Elijah's body, but it's interesting that they did not assume that Elijah had been taken up into the "third Heaven." Instead, they said that "Perhaps the Spirit of the Lord has picked him up and set him down on some mountain or in some valley" (2 Kings 2:16). So even the prophets who witnessed this event did not assume that Elijah had been taken up into the "third Heaven," but instead they thought that his body might have been taken somewhere else on earth.

Based on all of the evidence, perhaps Elijah was lifted up into the "first Heaven" (the sky) by the whirlwind, and then Elijah's spirit was taken to Paradise in Hades (we're not told what happened to his body). Or perhaps he was carried by the whirlwind and then deposited alive in some other location. Either explanation fits with all of the Scriptural evidence.

 

[Mysteryman]

Paradise is future. The grave, "hades", is now, after you die.

Elijah and Enoch are both dead . Moses is dead. All are dead, except one . Jesus Christ.

 

[Mysteryman]

Heaven and heavens - singular - plural

Anything above earth is a part of the heavens. "firmament"

 

[awaken]

Paradise is future. The grave, "hades", is now, after you die.

Elijah and Enoch are both dead . Moses is dead. All are dead, except one . Jesus Christ.

Are you saying that Hades is where the flesh body is? Like in a cemetary?

Or are you saying Hades is where the spirits are?

 

[Mysteryman]

Paradise is future. The grave, "hades", is now, after you die.

Elijah and Enoch are both dead . Moses is dead. All are dead, except one . Jesus Christ.

Are you saying that Hades is where the flesh body is? Like in a cemetary?

Or are you saying Hades is where the spirits are?

Both words - Hebrew - "shoel" and Greek - "hades" means the same thing - the unseen state Both words , which mean the same thing, are both figurative usage words. The literal word "grave" in the Hebrew is "geber". Nonetheless, it is where the body, which returns to dust, and the soul go down.

 

[awaken]

Paradise is future. The grave, "hades", is now, after you die.

Elijah and Enoch are both dead . Moses is dead. All are dead, except one . Jesus Christ.

Are you saying that Hades is where the flesh body is? Like in a cemetary?

Or are you saying Hades is where the spirits are?

Both words - Hebrew - "shoel" and Greek - "hades" means the same thing - the unseen state Both words , which mean the same thing, are both figurative usage words. The literal word "grave" in the Hebrew is "geber". Nonetheless, it is where the body, which returns to dust, and the soul go down.

The soul as being made up of your mind (what you think), your will (what you want), and your emotions (what you feel)...Is this the soul that goes down to the grave?

If so..how do you explain "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. In hell [Hades], where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.' But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'" (Luke 16:22-26)

 

[Mysteryman]

Paradise is future. The grave, "hades", is now, after you die.

Elijah and Enoch are both dead . Moses is dead. All are dead, except one . Jesus Christ.

Are you saying that Hades is where the flesh body is? Like in a cemetary?

Or are you saying Hades is where the spirits are?[/quote]


Both words - Hebrew - "shoel" and Greek - "hades" means the same thing - the unseen state Both words , which mean the same thing, are both figurative usage words. The literal word "grave" in the Hebrew is "geber". Nonetheless, it is where the body, which returns to dust, and the soul go down.[/quote]

The soul as being made up of your mind (what you think), your will (what you want), and your emotions (what you feel)...Is this the soul that goes down to the grave?

If so..how do you explain "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. In hell [Hades], where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.' But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'" (Luke 16:22-26)[/quote]


Hi

Luke 16:19 - 26 is a parable. The word "hell" is a very poor translation. It is the greek word "hades". And because of this, it is using this word figuratively, and not literally. This should be translated the second grave, or "eternal grave" ( an unseen state ), instead of the word "hell". In a literal grave, where one is to place a dead body. The dead know nothing, nor remember anything, nor are there any feelings .

The "soul" is also our remembrance, along with being our source of reasoning, and decision making. It is our soul that sins. Our soul mourns , can become bitter, the soul desires. And yes, the soul goes down to the grave with your body. The soul is what needed redemption.

 

[Mysteryman]

Hi awaken:

I meant to answer your question about where the spirit of man goes. The spirit of man goes back to God who is the giver, after one dies. The body goes back to dust, and the soul goes down with the body.

A Christian, who has the Spirit of Christ in them, remains with the soul of the Christian. The Christ in them, which is the Spirit of his Son, is mortal. The soul and the Spirit of Christ in you, is raised from the dead. Mortal putting on immortality. This is when we recieve our new spiritual bodies, at the gathering up of the saints.

 

[awaken]

Hi awaken:

I meant to answer your question about where the spirit of man goes. The spirit of man goes back to God who is the giver, after one dies. The body goes back to dust, and the soul goes down with the body.

A Christian, who has the Spirit of Christ in them, remains with the soul of the Christian. The Christ in them, which is the Spirit of his Son, is mortal. The soul and the Spirit of Christ in you, is raised from the dead. Mortal putting on immortality. This is when we recieve our new spiritual bodies, at the gathering up of the saints.

Is this what some call soul sleep? I know very little about this...I was taught that the spirit goes to God at death..death is spirit separating from the body, right?

Where is the altar that the souls are under here? How are they speaking?

"When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. They called out in a loud voice, "How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?" Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed." (Revelation 6:9-11)

 

[awaken]

Hi

Luke 16:19 - 26 is a parable. The word "hell" is a very poor translation. It is the greek word "hades". And because of this, it is using this word figuratively, and not literally. This should be translated the second grave, or "eternal grave" ( an unseen state ), instead of the word "hell". In a literal grave, where one is to place a dead body. The dead know nothing, nor remember anything, nor are there any feelings .

The "soul" is also our remembrance, along with being our source of reasoning, and decision making. It is our soul that sins. Our soul mourns , can become bitter, the soul desires. And yes, the soul goes down to the grave with your body. The soul is what needed redemption.

This might be a parable, but most of Jesus' parables used real places and realistic people and events. Jesus never invented fantasy locations and fantasy characters for His parables, so if the Luke passage is a parable then it's reasonable to conclude that Jesus was describing the reality of Hades, because Jesus always used reality in His parables. Jesus described the souls of dead people with memories and feelings and desires, and these departed spirits are able to recognize and communicate with each other.

For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten. Their love, their hate and their jealousy have long since vanished; never again will they have a part in anything that happens under the sun." (Ecclesiastes 9:5-6)

Notice that in addition to saying that the dead know nothing, the above passage also says that the dead have no further reward. If we take this literally (as people do with the "know nothing" part), then this passage contradicts all of the New Testament teachings concerning our future rewards. Plus, the above passage says that even the memory of the dead is forgotten, which is clearly not literally true because we can easily remember numerous people who are dead. Plus, the above passage says that the dead will never have a part in anything that happens under the sun, but if we take this literally then it contradicts all of the New Testament teachings concerning the resurrection of the dead. The above passage contains figurative language from a man who was very wise, but who did not have our New Testament revelation of what happens after we die.

 

[awaken]

These scriptures imply that life and consciousness continue between death and resurrection; Isaiah 14:9-11; Matthew 22:32; Mark 9:43-48; Luke 16:19-31; John 11:26; 2 Corinthians 5:6-8; Philippians 1:21-23; Revelation 6:9-11.

 

[Mysteryman]

Hi awaken:

I meant to answer your question about where the spirit of man goes. The spirit of man goes back to God who is the giver, after one dies. The body goes back to dust, and the soul goes down with the body.

A Christian, who has the Spirit of Christ in them, remains with the soul of the Christian. The Christ in them, which is the Spirit of his Son, is mortal. The soul and the Spirit of Christ in you, is raised from the dead. Mortal putting on immortality. This is when we recieve our new spiritual bodies, at the gathering up of the saints.

Is this what some call soul sleep? I know very little about this...I was taught that the spirit goes to God at death..death is spirit separating from the body, right?

Where is the altar that the souls are under here? How are they speaking?

"When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. They called out in a loud voice, "How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?" Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed." (Revelation 6:9-11)

Hi awaken

There is no such thing as soul sleep. The soul dies with the body. When a person dies, the body and soul go to the grave. The spirit of man goes back to the giver , who is God - Ecc. 12:7

In Rev. 6:9 - 11 - These souls that are under the altar, are the souls of the saints who have been resurrected from the dead at the gathering up of the saints. I will say this once again, the word "brothers" is suppose to be the word "brethren" and not "brothers" in Rev. 6:11. A brethren is one who is related, but is not within the direct immediate family. Christians have Christ in them - the Spirit of his Son. We are sons of God, because we have the seed of Christ in us - Galatians 3:16.

 

[Mysteryman]

Hi

Luke 16:19 - 26 is a parable. The word "hell" is a very poor translation. It is the greek word "hades". And because of this, it is using this word figuratively, and not literally. This should be translated the second grave, or "eternal grave" ( an unseen state ), instead of the word "hell". In a literal grave, where one is to place a dead body. The dead know nothing, nor remember anything, nor are there any feelings .

The "soul" is also our remembrance, along with being our source of reasoning, and decision making. It is our soul that sins. Our soul mourns , can become bitter, the soul desires. And yes, the soul goes down to the grave with your body. The soul is what needed redemption.

This might be a parable, but most of Jesus' parables used real places and realistic people and events. Jesus never invented fantasy locations and fantasy characters for His parables, so if the Luke passage is a parable then it's reasonable to conclude that Jesus was describing the reality of Hades, because Jesus always used reality in His parables. Jesus described the souls of dead people with memories and feelings and desires, and these departed spirits are able to recognize and communicate with each other.

For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten. Their love, their hate and their jealousy have long since vanished; never again will they have a part in anything that happens under the sun." (Ecclesiastes 9:5-6)

Notice that in addition to saying that the dead know nothing, the above passage also says that the dead have no further reward. If we take this literally (as people do with the "know nothing" part), then this passage contradicts all of the New Testament teachings concerning our future rewards. Plus, the above passage says that even the memory of the dead is forgotten, which is clearly not literally true because we can easily remember numerous people who are dead. Plus, the above passage says that the dead will never have a part in anything that happens under the sun, but if we take this literally then it contradicts all of the New Testament teachings concerning the resurrection of the dead. The above passage contains figurative language from a man who was very wise, but who did not have our New Testament revelation of what happens after we die.

Hi awaken

The parable is speaking figuratively of the future. There are two deaths. One the literal, the other is spiritual. In the first death, there are no future rewards , nor does anyone who has died, have any memory, thus they know nothing in the first death.
But in the second death, they do have memory and a conscious state of mind. This is why they suffer and this is why it is called "eternal damnation". Christians are not appointed unto the second death. Only those whom God has removed their names from the book of life, will go into the second death.

The parable is speaking about the second death.

 

[Mysteryman]

These scriptures imply that life and consciousness continue between death and resurrection; Isaiah 14:9-11; Matthew 22:32; Mark 9:43-48; Luke 16:19-31; John 11:26; 2 Corinthians 5:6-8; Philippians 1:21-23; Revelation 6:9-11.

Hi awaken

Isaiah 14:9 - 11 is talking about those who are alive who percieve the state of the one who is dead.

Also notice, that the word "hell" in verse 9 and the word "grave" in verse 11 are both the Hebrew word "shoel". But translated differently. Both verse 9 and verse 11 should have been translated "grave".

Matthew 22:32 is talking about after the resurrection, not before . Read verse 31 which is a part of the context. God is not going to leave anyone dead, literally.

Mark 9:43 - 48 is talking about eternal life (born again), and eternal death (the second death).

 

[awaken]

Hi awaken:

I meant to answer your question about where the spirit of man goes. The spirit of man goes back to God who is the giver, after one dies. The body goes back to dust, and the soul goes down with the body.

A Christian, who has the Spirit of Christ in them, remains with the soul of the Christian. The Christ in them, which is the Spirit of his Son, is mortal. The soul and the Spirit of Christ in you, is raised from the dead. Mortal putting on immortality. This is when we recieve our new spiritual bodies, at the gathering up of the saints.

Is this what some call soul sleep? I know very little about this...I was taught that the spirit goes to God at death..death is spirit separating from the body, right?

Where is the altar that the souls are under here? How are they speaking?

"When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. They called out in a loud voice, "How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?" Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed." (Revelation 6:9-11)

Hi awaken

There is no such thing as soul sleep. The soul dies with the body. When a person dies, the body and soul go to the grave. The spirit of man goes back to the giver , who is God - Ecc. 12:7

In Rev. 6:9 - 11 - These souls that are under the altar, are the souls of the saints who have been resurrected from the dead at the gathering up of the saints. I will say this once again, the word "brothers" is suppose to be the word "brethren" and not "brothers" in Rev. 6:11. A brethren is one who is related, but is not within the direct immediate family. Christians have Christ in them - the Spirit of his Son. We are sons of God, because we have the seed of Christ in us - Galatians 3:16.

ok..I think I am seeing some of this!

THe soul and body dies and the spirit goes to be with God, right?

Well... the souls are crying out here, how are they dead?

 

[Mysteryman]

Quote awaken: "ok..I think I am seeing some of this!

THe soul and body dies and the spirit goes to be with God, right?

Well... the souls are crying out here, how are they dead?"



Hi awaken

That is correct, the body and the soul dies, and the spirit of man goes back to God.

What do you mean by your last comment/question ? > "Well... the souls are crying out here, how are they dead?"

 

[awaken]

Quote awaken: "ok..I think I am seeing some of this!

THe soul and body dies and the spirit goes to be with God, right?

Well... the souls are crying out here, how are they dead?"



Hi awaken

That is correct, the body and the soul dies, and the spirit of man goes back to God.

What do you mean by your last comment/question ? > "Well... the souls are crying out here, how are they dead?"

Let me see if I am following this...In Rev. the souls under the alter are the church. So at this point they have been raptured, so that is why their souls are crying out? Because before they were raptured there souls are dead?

Two more questions..
What does the alter represent in Rev. 6?
This brings light to me concerning that verse...those being the raptured ones!
So it says they are waiting for their brethren and servants to be killed...brethren being tribulation saints..who are the servants?

 

[Mysteryman]

Quote awaken: "ok..I think I am seeing some of this!

THe soul and body dies and the spirit goes to be with God, right?

Well... the souls are crying out here, how are they dead?"



Hi awaken

That is correct, the body and the soul dies, and the spirit of man goes back to God.

What do you mean by your last comment/question ? > "Well... the souls are crying out here, how are they dead?"

Let me see if I am following this...In Rev. the souls under the alter are the church. So at this point they have been raptured, so that is why their souls are crying out? Because before they were raptured there souls are dead?

Two more questions..
What does the alter represent in Rev. 6?
This brings light to me concerning that verse...those being the raptured ones!
So it says they are waiting for their brethren and servants to be killed...brethren being tribulation saints..who are the servants?

Hi awaken

Yes, the souls under the altar are those who have been raptured (gathered up). Correct, before the rapture (gathering up) the souls were dead.

The altar represents "sacrifice" --Christians (the body of Christ) are the burnt offering.

Many are called, but few are chosen.

The many, are the brethren = followers.

The chosen, are the brothers in Christ = promised seed -- Christ in you.

The servants are the 144,000 - Rev. 7:3 - 15

 

[awaken]

Quote awaken: "ok..I think I am seeing some of this!

THe soul and body dies and the spirit goes to be with God, right?

Well... the souls are crying out here, how are they dead?"



Hi awaken

That is correct, the body and the soul dies, and the spirit of man goes back to God.

What do you mean by your last comment/question ? > "Well... the souls are crying out here, how are they dead?"

Let me see if I am following this...In Rev. the souls under the alter are the church. So at this point they have been raptured, so that is why their souls are crying out? Because before they were raptured there souls are dead?

Two more questions..
What does the alter represent in Rev. 6?
This brings light to me concerning that verse...those being the raptured ones!
So it says they are waiting for their brethren and servants to be killed...brethren being tribulation saints..who are the servants?

Hi awaken

Yes, the souls under the altar are those who have been raptured (gathered up). Correct, before the rapture (gathering up) the souls were dead.

The altar represents "sacrifice" --Christians (the body of Christ) are the burnt offering.

Many are called, but few are chosne.

The many, are the brethren = followers.

The chosen, are the brothers in Christ = promised seed -- Christ in you.

The servants are the 144,000 - Rev. 7:3 - 15

Thanks..this has opened up so many other scriptures for me!!!!

 

[glorydaz]

There is no such thing as soul sleep. The soul dies with the body. When a person dies, the body and soul go to the grave. The spirit of man goes back to the giver , who is God - Ecc. 12:7

The soul is who we are...it's the essence of man. It does not die nor does it remain with the body at death. We put off our "tent" at death, but "we" live to come before the throne when all will stand before the Lord in that day of judgment.

The soul is the part of man that gets "converted", is atoned for, and is redeemed. We worship God with our whole heart and soul. It doesn't die...if it did we would not face the judgment. It's our body that is resurrected when the Lord returns. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Self, who we are, our soul, doesn't die or there would be no point in God even "saving our souls." We believe unto the saving of our souls.

Your theories do not comport with the Word of God. It's just that simple.