Should Christians wait?

[prophetofsong]

This is a touchy subject for most, and I'm not sure if this is the proper area of the site to post this but feel free to move or whatever as needed. And also know I am not trying to offend anyone. There came a point in my faith where I realized I needed to be as honest as possible about what I thought, despite whether I was right or wrong, or how many people disagreed with me:

All my Christian life (well over 10 years now) I was told to wait til marriage to have sex, and wait I have. Over time though I began to rethink it, and while I don't feel unmovable in my stance, I've come to conclude that "waiting til marriage" may have made more sense to those living in Biblical times, but for us today I don't think it's quite as practical. In a time of no birth control, no child support, little knowledge of disease and psychology it was probably a much better idea to wait until a stable situation like marriage to have sex (especially since traditionally people usually got married pretty young anyway). But humanity and our technologies and understandings have evolved, as well as our cultural expectations to get a higher education or career, which puts marriage on the back burner for a lot of people. So while it still may be a good idea not to run around and have as much sex with as many people as you possibly can, its not really necessary to wait til you have a legal agreement and a ceremony either.

I think for a lot of Christian couples "waiting til marriage" actually ends up subconsciously translating to "rushing to marry", which certainly isnt any better than having pre-marital sex and in my opinion it might be even worse. I wanted to marry my last serious girlfriend, in part because I thought that I really loved her but also because we wanted to have sex without "disobeying God". And as it turned out she was a terrible person and not who she pretended to be at all. And also as a result of my religious conditioning, I had an extremely hard time prior to that dealing with the fact that she had made a "mistake" and slept with someone before me. From a conservative Christian perspective I guess it would have made sense why I was angry about it, but being that I went to extensive counseling over it and obsessed about it day and night for months, I think its safe to say there was more at work. Some would say it was because "sin hurts people" but I've come to say that so does certain religious teachings; in this case, the idea that sex is only pure after a marriage ceremony, and anything else undoubtedly screws up your future marriage and relationships and essentially makes you "damaged goods". As well intended as my pastors may have been, I feel confident I was psychologically damaged from their teachings.


And I know many Christian couples with good heads on their shoulders, who got married and a couple years later got divorced or are getting ready to for various reasons. I've even heard some of them say that they honestly regretted waiting. I think in church I was always taught that waiting til marriage to have sex was this sort of "magical formula" for having a solid marriage but the older I get and the more associated I get with married couples (both believer and non), that idea seems to be a bit unfounded. Granted, I'm still respectful and I honor those who DO choose to wait, but I no longer think it's necessarily what God wants or is the best idea for all people (and yes I am associated with the Bible verses used to support it. I don't view the Bible as an inerrant rule book however).

 

[handy]

Hi Prophetofsong,

It's OK to be honest, even about sticky subjects like this. I hope you're open for discussion though.

You've packed quite a bit in your post, but this is what really stood out to me:

I think for a lot of Christian couples "waiting til marriage" actually ends up subconsciously translating to "rushing to marry", which certainly isnt any better than having pre-marital sex and in my opinion it might be even worse. I wanted to marry my last serious girlfriend, in part because I thought that I really loved her but also because we wanted to have sex without "disobeying God". And as it turned out she was a terrible person and not who she pretended to be at all. And also as a result of my religious conditioning, I had an extremely hard time prior to that dealing with the fact that she had made a "mistake" and slept with someone before me. From a conservative Christian perspective I guess it would have made sense why I was angry about it, but being that I went to extensive counseling over it and obsessed about it day and night for months, I think its safe to say there was more at work. Some would say it was because "sin hurts people" but I've come to say that so does certain religious teachings; in this case, the idea that sex is only pure after a marriage ceremony, and anything else undoubtedly screws up your future marriage and relationships and essentially makes you "damaged goods". As well intended as my pastors may have been, I feel confident I was psychologically damaged from their teachings.

You don't say that you wound up marrying your girlfriend, so what I'm about to say is predicated on the assumption that you didn't.

So, as I read this I see that you wanted to marry her in order to have sex, but didn't. But, she turned out to be a terrible person and not who she "pretended" to be.

However, you also became pretty mental over the fact that she had slept with someone prior to being your girlfriend and think that from a conservative Christian perspective it "makes sense" that you were so angry about you need counseling.

So....do you honestly believe that you would have been better off in your relationship with her if you had been having sex with her during all of this?


I was single for a very long time, and during those years believe me, I examined and re-examined the conviction to remain abstinent. However, as I saw how the current trend for lax sexual standards harmed more and more friends as the years went by, I also saw that, by keeping to God's principles, I was being saved from a lot of headache and heartache...not the least of which would have included bedding down with people I thought truly cared about me, only to find out later that...they didn't.

When I did finally meet my husband, it was relatively baggage free. No string of broken relationships...no worries about STD's...no children from previous relationships. I think our marriage does indeed have a more solid foundation since neither one of us brought a lot of emotional baggage from previous sexual relationships to the table (although my husband wasn't a virgin, but then his very few (3) sexual experiences were more of the one-night-stand type of sex and were so distant in the past they truly didn't matter to me, much.)

I don't think we need to get too worried about someone having previous sexual experiences, because what is sex outside of marriage except sin, and we've all sinned in one way or another. I was a virgin when I met my husband, but I certainly wasn't sinless. But, after the fact, and now especially that we have children who are entering into sexual maturity, he really wishes that he hadn't had those few experiences and sees that remaining a virgin like I did would have been better. Water under the bridge now, but something to think about.

As for the current teachings of the Church regarding sex...I agree that it's almost mental itself.

Somehow, sexual impurity seems to be the worst possible of sins and homosexuality the worst of the worst of the worst. The Bible doesn't teach that at all. The bible really doesn't attach a "ranking" to sin...although blaspheme is what will get you really in serious danger of the point of no return.

But, sex outside of marriage is sin. Just like getting drunk, or being a glutton, or telling someone who angers you to "f" off.

And, sex outside of marriage comes with a lot more potential for consequences and I think it really can undermine one's marriage if, as a couple, the two do not seriously work out the issue. As it was, my husband had no serious consequences to carry through life due to his "mistakes" and I had none, so we're pretty good.

But humanity and our technologies and understandings have evolved, as well as our cultural expectations to get a higher education or career, which puts marriage on the back burner for a lot of people.

Boy, you've said a lot here. I hear you on this, and really feel for folks today who have to push marriage out long after one reaches sexual maturity. But, in all our "humanity and our technologies and understandings" we also have a lot of people really screwing up their lives, not to mention the lives of innocent children, by not keeping to God's principles on sex. STD's are skyrocketing, so many children being brought into this world without the foundation of a solid home...the list goes on.


Prophetofsong, what I'm really getting from you, more than anything else, is that you were in love, things didn't work out, are now single and are lonely and have sexual needs that aren't being met.

I understand the position because I was in that position myself for many years.

I can only say I am glad that I didn't turn to sex outside of marriage as the solution...waiting was hard, but it was worth it.

 

[prophetofsong]

You don't say that you wound up marrying your girlfriend, so what I'm about to say is predicated on the assumption that you didn't.

Correct.

So, as I read this I see that you wanted to marry her in order to have sex, but didn't. But, she turned out to be a terrible person and not who she "pretended" to be.

However, you also became pretty mental over the fact that she had slept with someone prior to being your girlfriend and think that from a conservative Christian perspective it "makes sense" that you were so angry about you need counseling.

So....do you honestly believe that you would have been better off in your relationship with her if you had been having sex with her during all of this?

Not necessarily, however, I do honestly believe I would have been better off taking the teachings I learned in church with a grain of salt (in regards to sex and other things I suppose). Had I the mindset then that I do now, the fact that she had had sex before probably wouldn't have bothered me at all. Of course that is an assumption, but one I stand by none the less.

I was single for a very long time, and during those years believe me, I examined and re-examined the conviction to remain abstinent. However, as I saw how the current trend for lax sexual standards harmed more and more friends as the years went by, I also saw that, by keeping to God's principles, I was being saved from a lot of headache and heartache...not the least of which would have included bedding down with people I thought truly cared about me, only to find out later that...they didn't.

When I did finally meet my husband, it was relatively baggage free. No string of broken relationships...no worries about STD's...no children from previous relationships. I think our marriage does indeed have a more solid foundation since neither one of us brought a lot of emotional baggage from previous sexual relationships to the table (although my husband wasn't a virgin, but then his very few (3) sexual experiences were more of the one-night-stand type of sex and were so distant in the past they truly didn't matter to me, much.)

Well I'm not really trying to say there are zero positives that can come from waiting, what I would say is that I am highly skeptical that that is the "best" way to do things, in all cases for all people? And I am skeptical of whether NOT waiting til marriage necessarily leads to all these negative consequences?

For example, the argument that you should wait til marriage because you don't have to deal with diseases and unwanted children seems logical enough in itself. The thing is though, I think you could just as well avoid that just as easily by using things like birth control, condoms and doctor appointments to make sure you nor the other person has anything. No, those things aren't a perfect defense against diseases and unwanted children, but neither is waiting til marriage a perfect defense against things like adultery and divorce. The key issue to me is simply responsibility. If one is going to have premarital sex yet is not willing to use contraceptives, man up when accidents happen and/or has promiscuous sex, then I would say that is an issue of the person being irresponsible...not an issue of premarital sex being a bad thing in of itself. My father was married multiple times, and had multiple children by those wives; does that say anything about marriage itself being bad? No, I think it means he was an irresponsible person who never learned to commit to anything.

As for the issue of having emotional baggage, I'm not entirely sure what to say about that being that I am still a virgin? I guess I would first have to question what that emotional baggage is exactly and was it caused by the premarital sex itself or was that what it was attributed to? Just like I was saying regarding my hurt over my ex's premarital relations, I think it could be more the result of a certain mindset. If one's mindset is "premarital sex is forbidden by God and makes future marriages less special" then, yeah, it'd be pretty reasonable if you developed some emotional baggage regarding a perceived mistake. But again, that doesn't necessarily mean its a result of having sex outside of marriage.

I don't think we need to get too worried about someone having previous sexual experiences, because what is sex outside of marriage except sin, and we've all sinned in one way or another. I was a virgin when I met my husband, but I certainly wasn't sinless. But, after the fact, and now especially that we have children who are entering into sexual maturity, he really wishes that he hadn't had those few experiences and sees that remaining a virgin like I did would have been better. Water under the bridge now, but something to think about.

The thing that I kind of don't get is, how is it really better? How would one ever know? You either wait til marriage or you don't; thus you can never really replay your life in the alternate scenario to know if it would have actually been better, right? Again, maybe it what would really be better if people were just more responsible as individuals encountering an uncertain world with uncertain reactions to our actions?

As for the current teachings of the Church regarding sex...I agree that it's almost mental itself.

Somehow, sexual impurity seems to be the worst possible of sins and homosexuality the worst of the worst of the worst. The Bible doesn't teach that at all. The bible really doesn't attach a "ranking" to sin...although blaspheme is what will get you really in serious danger of the point of no return.

I agree with the ranking thing at least. It's nonsensical by all accounts.

But, sex outside of marriage is sin. Just like getting drunk, or being a glutton, or telling someone who angers you to "f" off.

I'm kind of at a point in my faith where I am re-evaluating things like what I perceive to be "sin". Currently, I am thinking it is beyond a black and white list of do's and don't's...not that Christians could agree on what that list would all consist of anyway.

Prophetofsong, what I'm really getting from you, more than anything else, is that you were in love, things didn't work out, are now single and are lonely and have sexual needs that aren't being met.

I won't disagree with that. It may come off as an issue of me trying to justify having sex eventually (and even I am unsure of my subconscious motives), but like I said, I really feel I'm just moving beyond the "God wants us to do this" and "God doesnt want us to do this" categorization. To use a Biblical example, it was when Adam and Eve ate from the tree of the knowledge of Good and evil that they "died". Now I take the Bible very metaphorically, but one thing I can take from that is that humans may never have been meant to categorize everything so black and white, good and bad. That realization causes me to reassess everything I once thought good and once thought bad, including that which I perceive the Bible is telling me. But I am getting on another tangent now and its 3 am, haha.

 

[felix]

You can have sex before a marriage ceremony but after taking her as a wife. There is a big difference. A marriage ceremony is before everyone and to the world, saying that your are married. Taking someone as a wife is an agreement only between you and your wife where both agree to be husband and wife before God, and no one else is necessary. So, technically, you don't even need to say that you are married to the world, and yet you can take her to be your wife to live a godly family life in the sight of the Lord. If you and your wife agree and had sex, you are already married to her before God.

Today, many try legalize gay marriages to be included in marriage laws of the world and some countries already have them included. Why would I want to equate my marriage done based on scriptures before God (and before many people) to some crap which includes crap which is also called as marriage by some people?

 

[handy]

Not necessarily, however, I do honestly believe I would have been better off taking the teachings I learned in church with a grain of salt (in regards to sex and other things I suppose). Had I the mindset then that I do now, the fact that she had had sex before probably wouldn't have bothered me at all. Of course that is an assumption, but one I stand by none the less.

Well, speaking from my own experience, it bothered me...not much, certainly not enough to break things off with him, but I wondered how I would "measure up" to his previous experiences. After a while, I didn't worry about it anymore. I certainly don't worry about it now. He recognized that it was sin, and long since repented of it. Women might be more prone to this than men, but it did undermine my own sense of security for a while.

The thing that I kind of don't get is, how is it really better? How would one ever know? You either wait til marriage or you don't; thus you can never really replay your life in the alternate scenario to know if it would have actually been better, right? Again, maybe it what would really be better if people were just more responsible as individuals encountering an uncertain world with uncertain reactions to our actions?

Again, I think in our marriage, my husband and I can have some insight into this. I waited until marriage. He didn't. I have no regrets, none, in waiting. He does, especially now that our kids are older and coming into sexual maturity. Really, until he met and married me, he really didn't have a huge issue about his previous experiences, although deep inside he knew he shouldn't have been doing it. But, when he met me, and we were truly in love and committed to each other...then yes, he dealt with regrets and he still regrets it. It doesn't consume him nor our marriage. But, if he could get into the way back machine and make different decisions, he would.

Now on to what I think is at the heart of your dilemma:

I won't disagree with that. It may come off as an issue of me trying to justify having sex eventually (and even I am unsure of my subconscious motives), but like I said, I really feel I'm just moving beyond the "God wants us to do this" and "God doesnt want us to do this" categorization. To use a Biblical example, it was when Adam and Eve ate from the tree of the knowledge of Good and evil that they "died". Now I take the Bible very metaphorically, but one thing I can take from that is that humans may never have been meant to categorize everything so black and white, good and bad. That realization causes me to reassess everything I once thought good and once thought bad, including that which I perceive the Bible is telling me. But I am getting on another tangent now and its 3 am, haha

When we move away from using the Bible to determine...quite simply...that God wants us to do this and does not want us to do that...we get into some pretty murky waters...waters that I think you're beginning to wade into.

For instance, when we read through the Bible, simply and without trying to justify things, we get the clear message that God does not want us to have sex outside of marriage.

But, you're young. You're single. You have no idea when you're going to get married. And, you have ...needs.

So, move away from using the Bible and it becomes really easy, even for you a Christian, to say...well God really doesn't care all that much.

You mentioned the Garden of Eden and Adam and Eve and looking at the whole thing metaphorically.

Taking another look at the Garden and Adam and Eve, what was the real temptation of Satan's? What was it he said to them?

"Did God really say..." "Did God really say that you couldn't eat from any of these trees?" (Well, no He didn't say that at all.)

"God said you would die!?! Why no, not at all, you won't die, you'll just become a lot wiser than you are now!"

So, at the heart of the story of the Garden of Evil we see that the real problem is when we think worldly wisdom (represented by the tree) is better for us than God's simple commandments.

Something to think about.

 

[prophetofsong]

Well, speaking from my own experience, it bothered me...not much, certainly not enough to break things off with him, but I wondered how I would "measure up" to his previous experiences. After a while, I didn't worry about it anymore. I certainly don't worry about it now. He recognized that it was sin, and long since repented of it. Women might be more prone to this than men, but it did undermine my own sense of security for a while.

Again, I think in our marriage, my husband and I can have some insight into this. I waited until marriage. He didn't. I have no regrets, none, in waiting. He does, especially now that our kids are older and coming into sexual maturity. Really, until he met and married me, he really didn't have a huge issue about his previous experiences, although deep inside he knew he shouldn't have been doing it. But, when he met me, and we were truly in love and committed to each other...then yes, he dealt with regrets and he still regrets it. It doesn't consume him nor our marriage. But, if he could get into the way back machine and make different decisions, he would.

But maybe he only regrets it because, like you, he believes it's something God didn't want? So the question for me becomes, is that guilt there when that perception is not? That's hard to say

Now on to what I think is at the heart of your dilemma:
When we move away from using the Bible to determine...quite simply...that God wants us to do this and does not want us to do that...we get into some pretty murky waters...waters that I think you're beginning to wade into.

Maybe, but the idea that the Bible is God's perfect instruction manual for mankind is only one way of looking at the Bible; for one to assume that that is the way God views the book, is for me, to assume too much. I have no problem looking to the Bible for wisdom, possibly God-inspired wisdom. At the end of the day though, it is still a book authored, canonized and translated by imperfect men. I don't think we need a book that has in its entirety only existed for little over a millenia to base all morality on...I really don't think God ever intended that. It would also make most of humanity really screwed, since the laity has only really been allowed to read the Bible for little over 600 years and even so literacy has been generally uncommon among the lower class until recent times.

For instance, when we read through the Bible, simply and without trying to justify things, we get the clear message that God does not want us to have sex outside of marriage.

Eh...I would say that's a little debatable. It's almost never flat out mentioned, other than by Paul as "fornication" but the greek word can also be translated "whoredom" or "idolatry". And then there's the old testament, which I think it almost pointless to bring up because theres SO much in it Christians don't even bother trying to follow because they say it doesn't apply to today, but then they'll choose certain parts about homosexuality and tattoos and say that still applies to today

Also considering how there is little to no condemnation on polygamy or having concubines (sex slaves), I would almost have to say what the old testament says about premarital sex to be invalid on that point alone.

But, you're young. You're single. You have no idea when you're going to get married. And, you have ...needs.

So, move away from using the Bible and it becomes really easy, even for you a Christian, to say...well God really doesn't care all that much.

I feel convicted that I have little choice given the history of the Bible. If it had floated down from the clouds one day, with a booming voice and in the claws of a glowing dove, I suppose that would be one thing. But again, it was a book compiled by men, just like all the other holy books. I have no proof that it is Gods perfect message or will for humanity, so I seek other ways to view and use it.

Taking another look at the Garden and Adam and Eve, what was the real temptation of Satan's? What was it he said to them?

"Did God really say..." "Did God really say that you couldn't eat from any of these trees?" (Well, no He didn't say that at all.)

"God said you would die!?! Why no, not at all, you won't die, you'll just become a lot wiser than you are now!"

So, at the heart of the story of the Garden of Evil we see that the real problem is when we think worldly wisdom (represented by the tree) is better for us than God's simple commandments.

Something to think about.

You could draw that from the story too, however I don't feel we have "God's simple commandments". We have the writings of men, who claimed to have God's message to humanity. I have really no way to verify whether they did or didnt, and without that verification it would be odd of God to expect me to follow it unquestionably. Again, I think the Bible has many wise things to say and many great ideas about God that we can learn from, but I'm not comfortable concluding that God demands we treat it as a rulebook for all people for all times. I just don't personally see that.

 

[jwoods4290]

Hi Prophetofsong,

It's OK to be honest, even about sticky subjects like this. I hope you're open for discussion though.

You've packed quite a bit in your post, but this is what really stood out to me:


You don't say that you wound up marrying your girlfriend, so what I'm about to say is predicated on the assumption that you didn't.

So, as I read this I see that you wanted to marry her in order to have sex, but didn't. But, she turned out to be a terrible person and not who she "pretended" to be.

However, you also became pretty mental over the fact that she had slept with someone prior to being your girlfriend and think that from a conservative Christian perspective it "makes sense" that you were so angry about you need counseling.

So....do you honestly believe that you would have been better off in your relationship with her if you had been having sex with her during all of this?


I was single for a very long time, and during those years believe me, I examined and re-examined the conviction to remain abstinent. However, as I saw how the current trend for lax sexual standards harmed more and more friends as the years went by, I also saw that, by keeping to God's principles, I was being saved from a lot of headache and heartache...not the least of which would have included bedding down with people I thought truly cared about me, only to find out later that...they didn't.

When I did finally meet my husband, it was relatively baggage free. No string of broken relationships...no worries about STD's...no children from previous relationships. I think our marriage does indeed have a more solid foundation since neither one of us brought a lot of emotional baggage from previous sexual relationships to the table (although my husband wasn't a virgin, but then his very few (3) sexual experiences were more of the one-night-stand type of sex and were so distant in the past they truly didn't matter to me, much.)

I don't think we need to get too worried about someone having previous sexual experiences, because what is sex outside of marriage except sin, and we've all sinned in one way or another. I was a virgin when I met my husband, but I certainly wasn't sinless. But, after the fact, and now especially that we have children who are entering into sexual maturity, he really wishes that he hadn't had those few experiences and sees that remaining a virgin like I did would have been better. Water under the bridge now, but something to think about.

As for the current teachings of the Church regarding sex...I agree that it's almost mental itself.

Somehow, sexual impurity seems to be the worst possible of sins and homosexuality the worst of the worst of the worst. The Bible doesn't teach that at all. The bible really doesn't attach a "ranking" to sin...although blaspheme is what will get you really in serious danger of the point of no return.

But, sex outside of marriage is sin. Just like getting drunk, or being a glutton, or telling someone who angers you to "f" off.

And, sex outside of marriage comes with a lot more potential for consequences and I think it really can undermine one's marriage if, as a couple, the two do not seriously work out the issue. As it was, my husband had no serious consequences to carry through life due to his "mistakes" and I had none, so we're pretty good.

Boy, you've said a lot here. I hear you on this, and really feel for folks today who have to push marriage out long after one reaches sexual maturity. But, in all our "humanity and our technologies and understandings" we also have a lot of people really screwing up their lives, not to mention the lives of innocent children, by not keeping to God's principles on sex. STD's are skyrocketing, so many children being brought into this world without the foundation of a solid home...the list goes on.


Prophetofsong, what I'm really getting from you, more than anything else, is that you were in love, things didn't work out, are now single and are lonely and have sexual needs that aren't being met.

I understand the position because I was in that position myself for many years.

I can only say I am glad that I didn't turn to sex outside of marriage as the solution...waiting was hard, but it was worth it.

sorry of the such long quote, but i do have to say, that is one of the greatest acknowledgements ever. if i had any questions about this, this solves all my answers and thank you for that. but anywho i'm going to give my theory and story..

i'm 21 years old now. i'm going to say this with truthful words, i do regret losing my virginity 6 years ago. i do believe sex, which i don't call it that, i truthfully call it "lovemaking" haha. but anywho i wasn't in love but honestly just had a hard *time* since the age of 10. as time went by though i thought about it and herd stories. alot of people i know who are about my age, few years up and down have had alot of partners and i thought eh?. in my opinion now that i grew up and dedicated my self to the lord and spent days at a time meditating seeking answers from the lord that our body is very special and just one single caraspace.

think about it.. we're only giving ONE human body. one heart, two legs, two arms, lips, etc. so why not preserve our being for that special somebody to share with? why would i abuse my body to give to someone who won't remember it as time goes on? why would we destroy our god giving body's due to a std? to liver failure of drinking? to mental coma's due to drugs? truthfully the devil's work.. temptation.

lets be honest men. when we *are with* a female, it's a whole another feeling. but think about it.. you get use to it and bored eventually. now when you make love with a woman, it's a lifetime deal but with one person. and 100x the pleasure.

god told everyone and i to honor our body and appreciate and treasure it. so you know what, i hope kids now a days because in my age era, it's impossible to find a virgin anymore. but i hope people take a closer look and ask for wisdom from the lord everyday. truthfully after learning all of this, i would do anything to take it back, and i promise that i'll only have intercourse again if i'm in love and have discussions and plans of marriage.

i hope i can help anyway possible and give off the best of my knowledge.but thank you for everyone's post. very great information.