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Women are to be silent when the Church assembles!
- Thread starter carlos123
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Sinthesis
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- Feb 23, 2009
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What is the last verse of 1st Corinthians, chapter 14?
The prescription for women to be silent is appropriate in the context of a male dominated society where women were not considered ontologically equal to men.
Today, do you let your children burst forth with any questions they might have during church service? This is the same principle at work. However, western society has progressed to the point where today women can, and are expected to, participate decently and in order, both civilly and within the church.
Try that with Islam.:eeeekkk
1Cr 14:40 - Let all things be done decently and in order.
The prescription for women to be silent is appropriate in the context of a male dominated society where women were not considered ontologically equal to men.
Today, do you let your children burst forth with any questions they might have during church service? This is the same principle at work. However, western society has progressed to the point where today women can, and are expected to, participate decently and in order, both civilly and within the church.
Try that with Islam.:eeeekkk
woodlandapple
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- Feb 24, 2012
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1 corinthians 1:2
The letter is addressed to them. The rest of 1 indicates that this letter is to provide the church with advice to a number of problems.
Context is very important in how we interpret these passages.
For example I could write:
It is essential for the demons to dominate in there fight against the saints, so pick up your banners and join the throngs in order to provide support and to overwhelm the followers o the saints.
Until you understand I am talking about the local sporting match this weekend you could imply something completely wrong. Moreover if you still try to imply I am talking about anything other than a footy match will be taking me out o context and missscrewing what I said.
I hope this answers your question : )
I agree context is very importand. I Corinthians is addressed (vs. 2) to "the church of God which is at Corinth". Howecver, the same verse (vs.2), the exact same context, continues to read: "with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's.''
woodlandapple
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- Feb 24, 2012
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And I also share Paul's sentiment, that every place calls upon Jesus as their lord.
But this message is still directed at you Webb. And Paul's letter was still addressed to the corinthians.
E
elijah23
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My church has women pastors. I have no problem with that.
woodlandapple
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- Feb 24, 2012
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Sigh.
Why is lukes letter to Theophilus called acts, and Paul's letter to the Corinthians called Corinthians?
Because they are written using different genres. Corinthians is from the occasional letter genre, this is clearly evident by the litery techniques that Paul uses. It is clearly addressed to the Corinthians, and early Christians where also aware of it when they called it Corinthians.
This is not just my opinion, this is also the opinion of every textbook I have read and seen, it is the opinion of every lecturer I have listened too and it's the opinion of the early church too.
I want to note that I am by No way claiming that there is nothing from these letters that we can apply to our lives, it is Gods inspired word. Yet it needs to be read in the context and the genre it is written.
Woodlandapple, your post # 68 is negated by none other than the apostle Paul who spoke not by his "opinion" nor the "opinion of every textbook" (written by man) nor did he consult "flesh and blood" but by inspiration of the Holy Spiit saying as I teach everywhere in every church.
webb
webb
woodlandapple
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Paul never gives is the impression in verse 2 that he is further addressing the work. It is one sentence and the subject does not change. He is continuing to refer to the Corinthians as those who are called to be holy like everyone else who calls Jesus their lord, and ours.
This is better shown in the NIV which better highlights this fact.
I don't understand why you would brush off the wisdom o those that dedicate their whole lives to understand issue like this. Obviously you are much wiser than all those you disagree with.
The NIV is regarded by some not to be the most reliable and I'm sure you are aware of that.
You wrote in the above: ''I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY YOU WOULD BRUSH OFF THE WISDOM OF THOSE THAT DEDICATE THEIR WHOLE LIVES TO UNDERSTAND ISSUE LIKE THIS. OBVIOUSLY YOU ARE MUCH WISER THAN ALL THOSE YOU DISAGREE WITH.'' Woodlandapple, true, I'm not very wise, yet wise enough to take the words of an inspired man (Paul, formerly Saul) over uninspired man. He said he taught the same everywhere in every church. That settles it for me. What "I don't understand" is why some try to circumvent plain statements of inspiration, but again, perhaps I do know.
webb
You wrote in the above: ''I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY YOU WOULD BRUSH OFF THE WISDOM OF THOSE THAT DEDICATE THEIR WHOLE LIVES TO UNDERSTAND ISSUE LIKE THIS. OBVIOUSLY YOU ARE MUCH WISER THAN ALL THOSE YOU DISAGREE WITH.'' Woodlandapple, true, I'm not very wise, yet wise enough to take the words of an inspired man (Paul, formerly Saul) over uninspired man. He said he taught the same everywhere in every church. That settles it for me. What "I don't understand" is why some try to circumvent plain statements of inspiration, but again, perhaps I do know.
webb
AirDancer
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- Feb 14, 2012
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1 Corinthians 1 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)
This is called an Appeal to Unity as there were serious but not fatal divisions within the assembly at Corinth.
1 Paul, called as an apostle of Jesus Christ [a]by the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,
2 To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, [b]saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours:
*the bold emphasized words are further descriptions to the church at Corinth; Paul is including the Corinthians with all the other 'saints' located elsewhere.*
3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
4 I thank [c]my God always concerning you for the grace of God which was given you in Christ Jesus, 5 that in everything you were enriched in Him, in all speech and all knowledge, 6 even as the testimony concerning Christ was confirmed [d]in you, 7 so that you are not lacking in any gift, awaiting eagerly the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ, 8 who will also confirm you to the end, blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.
10 Now I exhort you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all [e]agree and that there be no [f]divisions among you, but that you be [g]made complete in the same mind and in the same judgment. 11 For I have been informed concerning you, my brethren, by Chloe’s people, that there are quarrels among you. 12 Now I mean this, that each one of you is saying, “I am of Paul,†and “I of Apollos,†and “I of Cephas,†and “I of Christ.†13 [h]Has Christ been divided? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized [i]in the name of Paul? 14 [j]I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 so that no one would say you were baptized [k]in my name. 16 Now I did baptize also the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized any other. 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in [l]cleverness of speech, so that the cross of Christ would not be made void.
Again, Paul sent this to the Corinthians, to correct problems faced in that assembly.
Even though this was directed to the Corinthians, the message is timeless in that our assemblies should be orderly & peaceful....adultery is a sin, etc. Very powerful.
Still, Paul's letter did not and does not say women have to be without a voice in the assemblies. And if I can put words in his mouth, I suggest what he did and does say is, "Come on, folks, let's have a calm and respectful time together. Listen when someone is talking; pay attention; this is a special time and not just a social soiree."
And the call for peace & order - and to act decently - is appropro today in all we as Christians do, write, say or sing.
This is called an Appeal to Unity as there were serious but not fatal divisions within the assembly at Corinth.
1 Paul, called as an apostle of Jesus Christ [a]by the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,
2 To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, [b]saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours:
*the bold emphasized words are further descriptions to the church at Corinth; Paul is including the Corinthians with all the other 'saints' located elsewhere.*
3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
4 I thank [c]my God always concerning you for the grace of God which was given you in Christ Jesus, 5 that in everything you were enriched in Him, in all speech and all knowledge, 6 even as the testimony concerning Christ was confirmed [d]in you, 7 so that you are not lacking in any gift, awaiting eagerly the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ, 8 who will also confirm you to the end, blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.
10 Now I exhort you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all [e]agree and that there be no [f]divisions among you, but that you be [g]made complete in the same mind and in the same judgment. 11 For I have been informed concerning you, my brethren, by Chloe’s people, that there are quarrels among you. 12 Now I mean this, that each one of you is saying, “I am of Paul,†and “I of Apollos,†and “I of Cephas,†and “I of Christ.†13 [h]Has Christ been divided? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized [i]in the name of Paul? 14 [j]I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 so that no one would say you were baptized [k]in my name. 16 Now I did baptize also the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized any other. 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in [l]cleverness of speech, so that the cross of Christ would not be made void.
Again, Paul sent this to the Corinthians, to correct problems faced in that assembly.
Even though this was directed to the Corinthians, the message is timeless in that our assemblies should be orderly & peaceful....adultery is a sin, etc. Very powerful.
Still, Paul's letter did not and does not say women have to be without a voice in the assemblies. And if I can put words in his mouth, I suggest what he did and does say is, "Come on, folks, let's have a calm and respectful time together. Listen when someone is talking; pay attention; this is a special time and not just a social soiree."
And the call for peace & order - and to act decently - is appropro today in all we as Christians do, write, say or sing.
AirDancer
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- Feb 14, 2012
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Assembly = church = the people gathered
The problem with 1 Cor 14 is that some factions even today believe that women are to be excluded, that they have no voice whatsoever. Some factions even extend this to include prophecy. To hold this view is to deny the Gifts of the Holy Spirit, and to deny the Gifts is false teaching.
What those factions completely overlook is the admonition for order & decency while gathered together. If the church service/assembly is chaotic and confusing, no one is able to grow by learning in the Word. And that is disastrous for everyone.
The problem with 1 Cor 14 is that some factions even today believe that women are to be excluded, that they have no voice whatsoever. Some factions even extend this to include prophecy. To hold this view is to deny the Gifts of the Holy Spirit, and to deny the Gifts is false teaching.
What those factions completely overlook is the admonition for order & decency while gathered together. If the church service/assembly is chaotic and confusing, no one is able to grow by learning in the Word. And that is disastrous for everyone.
AirDancer--Now all you have to do (in this matter) is show where Paul (who was Saul) said anything like: ''COME ON, FOLKS, LETS HAVE A CALM AND RESPECTFUL TIME TOGETHER." Yes, things are to be done "decently and in order" I Cor.14:40, but never to the negation of what he by inspiration taught.
Was not Paul as inspired when he penned this passage?
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
AirDancer
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*Huge laugh* That's why I prefaced it with "And if I can put words in his mouth, I suggest what he did and does say is..." I was doing a 'readers digest condensed version' of several paragraphs which addressed the divisions, the bickerings, and the disorderly assemblies.
Precisely, Webb.... 'never to the negation of what he by inspiration taught.'
Lest anyone think otherwise, I'm not at all suggesting that women should rule or dominate the congregations or men/husbands. What I am saying is that women do have a role in the life of their churches, and it is not to sit by silently and not have a voice.
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