How can churches balance tradition with the evolving role of women in society and the church?

[jonathanbrickman0000]

1Co 11:3 But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God.

Yes. This is Truth, God's Own Word,
regardless of husband's worthiness.

The word "I" in 1 Corinthians 11:3, does not refer to God. If you believe that it is, please read verse 5, and tell me that you curse the women around you in this way with rules and edicts. And please read verse 4, and tell me that you curse the men around you in similar fashion. Please read verse 4 again, you who claim that it is a commandment of God, and tell me that those in extreme cold should not pray if they have their heads covered. And then please read verse 6, and tell me that women who do not cover their heads, should have their hair shaved off.

1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ. 2 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you. 3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. 4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head. 5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven. 6 For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.
I Corinthians 11:1-6

No, I shall not consider that "I" refers to God in the above verses, any more than I shall consider that "I" refers to God in 1 Corinthians 7:12.

But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.
I Corinthians 7:12

Did you know that there is a denomination called "Church of God", founded in 1888 in Anderson, IN, USA, which did as you say? They forced all of their women to shave their heads, there are a few photos in an out-of-print book I was lent, published in 1962. There was more similar behavior as well. The wife of the founder eventually divorced him, and they slowly repented of most of it. There is a very small splinter-cult left over, or was when I was studying this in the early aughts, which kept more or less to the original, though even those had not been so as to command their women to either shave their hair or cover it all up.

 

[Christ_empowered]

Jesus taught restrictions on divorce in the midst of a Jewish community that allowed men to divorce their wives easily…

And a surrounding Greco Roman culture that also allowed for infanticide and for men to easily divorce their wives.

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.
1 Timothy 2:12 ESV

I often wonder about this verse, particularly the first three words. Is there any other place where Paul declares something to be his rather than Jesus' command? Why in this case does he claim this for himself and not just make it a command from Jesus directly?

{edit} To me this reads more like a personal consideration of Paul's and not necessarily a command.

Where does that verse say that "Paul declares something to be his rather than Jesus' command"? WIP, I'm afraid that you're reading an idea into that verse that isn't there. Your added "to me" confirms my point. Please don't add to Scripture. Paul says in the next verses (the context) that Adam was created first and that his first creation is the biblical basis of verse 12. We always need to interpret the Bible's verses in their context:

1Ti_2:13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve;
1Ti_2:14 and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.

Thus, Paul says that Adam's firstness in naming the animals and then Eve ("woman") means that he is the servant-leader of women by serving their needs so that God will raise them up to be the final decision-maker in marriage and the church:

Eph 5:22 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord.
Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior.

1Co 11:3 But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God.

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

1Co 11:3 But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God.

The word "I" in 1 Corinthians 11:3, does not refer to God. If you believe that it is, please read verse 5, and tell me that you curse the women around you in this way with rules and edicts. And please read verse 4, and tell me that you curse the men around you in similar fashion. Please read verse 4 again, you who claim that it is a commandment of God, and tell me that those in extreme cold should not pray if they have their heads covered. And then please read verse 6, and tell me that women who do not cover their heads, should have their hair shaved off.

1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ. 2 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you. 3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. 4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head. 5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven. 6 For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.
I Corinthians 11:1-6

No, I shall not consider that "I" refers to God in the above verses, any more than I shall consider that "I" refers to God in 1 Corinthians 7:12.

But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.
I Corinthians 7:12

Did you know that there is a denomination called "Church of God", founded in 1888 in Anderson, IN, USA, which did as you say? They forced all of their women to shave their heads, there are a few photos in an out-of-print book I was lent, published in 1962. There was more similar behavior as well. The wife of the founder eventually divorced him, and they slowly repented of most of it. There is a very small splinter-cult left over, or was when I was studying this in the early aughts, which kept more or less to the original, though even those had not been so as to command their women to either shave their hair or cover it all up.

In that chapter, Paul is applying the principle of verse 3 to his culture. We need to find the Bible's principles and apply them to our culture. That means that every marriage and church relationship must have real communication, but the positions where the "buck stops" should be reserved for men.

 

[Rodger]

In that chapter, Paul is applying the principle of verse 3 to his culture. We need to find the Bible's principles and apply them to our culture. That means that every marriage and church relationship must have real communication, but the positions where the "buck stops" should be reserved for men.

Culture, by its very name tells us that it changes. What was considered acceptable or normal a few decades ago might be questioned or even rejected today.

Not so long ago the only way to communicate to someone was to write a letter. Now it can be done by telephone, text, email and so on.

What does not change is the Word of God!

In Romans 12:2, Paul warns, ....
"Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—His good, pleasing and perfect will" .

 

[WIP]

Where does that verse say that "Paul declares something to be his rather than Jesus' command"? WIP, I'm afraid that you're reading an idea into that verse that isn't there. Your added "to me" confirms my point. Please don't add to Scripture. Paul says in the next verses (the context) that Adam was created first and that his first creation is the biblical basis of verse 12. We always need to interpret the Bible's verses in their context:

1Ti_2:13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve;
1Ti_2:14 and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.

Thus, Paul says that Adam's firstness in naming the animals and then Eve ("woman") means that he is the servant-leader of women by serving their needs so that God will raise them up to be the final decision-maker in marriage and the church:

Eph 5:22 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord.
Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior.

1Co 11:3 But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God.

I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.
1 Timothy 2:12 NKJV

You should have also noticed that I started out by saying that "I often wonder about this" and then proceeded to point directly to the first three words.

And, I guess you can claim a win by pointing out those two words I slipped in, "To me" but let's just say we can leave those words out and my point is still the same.

Similarly, here's an example from Scripture of women teaching and even correcting a man. Where in Scripture are they reprimanded for doing this?

Now a Jew named Apollos, a native of Alexandria, came to Ephesus. He was an eloquent man, competent in the Scriptures. He had been instructed in the way of the Lord. And being fervent in spirit, he spoke and taught accurately the things concerning Jesus, though he knew only the baptism of John. He began to speak boldly in the synagogue, but when Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately.
Act 18:24-26 NKJV

 

[follower]

1Co 11:3 But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God.

Without a head, there is disorder, disobedience, and confusion. (and deception)

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Without a head, there is disorder, disobedience, and confusion. (and deception)

You have no idea how prevalent Peter Pan syndrome has been over the decade, how many men are in disorder, disobedience, and confusion themselves, how they fail to teach and exercise authority over themselves, how on earth can they teach and exercise authority over others？

 

[jonathanbrickman0000]

I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.
1 Timothy 2:12 NKJV

So. Now addressing those men here who claim that "I" in the above verse, is God: what do you do, when your mother teaches you things?

 

[WIP]

So. Now addressing those men here who claim that "I" in the above verse, is God: what do you do, when your mother teaches you things?

I'm just trying to gain understanding. After all, this is the Theology forum and not apologetics. There are some in my circle of friends that, when discussing this topic, have pointed out that all Scripture is inspired by God (2 Timothy 3:16). So then, since it is not appropriate to use proof texting and we need to take the whole of Scripture into account, how do we reconcile 1 Timothy 2 in light of Acts 18 and what role does the culture and the audience at the time have to play in this?

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

So. Now addressing those men here who claim that "I" in the above verse, is God: what do you do, when your mother teaches you things?

That's Paul response to a certain chaotic situation in the local church, he spoke of A woman who probably had some unruly behavior that disturbed church service or caused some other kind of trouble, it shouldn't be taken as a universal doctrine and used as justification for misogynistic proclivity.

 

[Free]

I'm just trying to gain understanding. After all, this is the Theology forum and not apologetics. There are some in my circle of friends that, when discussing this topic, have pointed out that all Scripture is inspired by God (2 Timothy 3:16). So then, since it is not appropriate to use proof texting and we need to take the whole of Scripture into account, how do we reconcile 1 Timothy 2 in light of Acts 18 and what role does the culture and the audience at the time have to play in this?

Acts 18:26? What is there to reconcile?

1Ti 2:11 Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness.
1Ti 2:12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.
1Ti 2:13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve;
1Ti 2:14 and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. (ESV)

We start by seeing that Paul grounds his argument first in creation, then in the Fall. Then we should note that in verse 8 Paul says that he desires "that in every place the men should pray, lifting holy hands." This implies the church gathering--"that in every [church] ...". That gives us our context.

So, when in church, Paul does "not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man." Why? Because "Adam was formed first, then Eve; and . . . the woman was deceived and became a transgressor." Adam was created first, as the head of all humans who would follow. Eve was created as his equal, as his helper, but was created from him, which suggests dependence and subordination.

It is very important to repeat that women are equal with men, but God has the ordained order to be that men are the spiritual head.

 

[hawkman]

11Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

Something to think about here is the education in the OT scriptures that the vast majority women of this time period would have been lacking .
Had Paul witnessed enough women teaching that he knew that their lack of knowledge of the OT was something that could not be overcome at the present time and he did not want the women to teach in error ?

Topical Bible: Role of Women in Learning and Teaching

 

[WIP]

Acts 18:26? What is there to reconcile?

In one place Scripture says women are not permitted to teach men, yet, in Acts 18:26 that is exactly what was done as I already showed. This would seem to be contradictory, but I also know that Scripture does not contradict itself. So, which is it?

And here's more.
In Genesis 1 it says, 26 “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 Then God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”

18 And the Lord God said, “It is not good that man should be alone; I will make him a helper comparable to him.”
Genesis 1:26-28, 2:18 NKJV

So, God created the woman to be a helper comparable to Adam and they would have dominion. I don't see where it says they would have dominion under Adam's direction and I haven't found anywhere where God said man must lord it over women.

We wrestled with this in our call committee when we were considering calling our pastor. Honestly, after interviewing them, she seemed to us to be the most Biblically sound of the three. One of them was ordained in the Lutheran Brethren tradition and when we asked him about some of the possible sticking points between that and our Lutheran denomination, he replied, I can work with whatever. In other words, his convictions were lacking.

Here's where I came to rest on this. There is a history of corrupt male pastors in all denominations, so calling a male does not guarantee righteous leadership. I have not known a church that opposes female pastors including Catholic, Lutheran Brethren, Southern Baptist, and Lutheran Church Missouri Synod, that does not allow women to teach Bible studies, Sunday School classes, or fill other leadership roles in the church. I have to say this sure sounds hypocritical.

 

[jonathanbrickman0000]

If one claims that the "I" in verses recently cited is God, then indeed, we have massive contradiction. But it's not. God has quoted many different people, into His Holy Scripture. And I will suggest that the only time we are to take a voice as God Himself, is where and when it is written as a quote of God Himself.

 

[Free]

11Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

Something to think about here is the education in the OT scriptures that the vast majority women of this time period would have been lacking .
Had Paul witnessed enough women teaching that he knew that their lack of knowledge of the OT was something that could not be overcome at the present time and he did not want the women to teach in error ?

Topical Bible: Role of Women in Learning and Teaching

That doesn't seem likely to me. After all, he was mainly addressing Gentile believers, even the men of which would have little to no understanding of the OT nor the gospel.

 

[Free]

In one place Scripture says women are not permitted to teach men, yet, in Acts 18:26 that is exactly what was done as I already showed. This would seem to be contradictory, but I also know that Scripture does not contradict itself. So, which is it?

That was my point about context. The context of the two is very different.

And here's more.
In Genesis 1 it says, 26 “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 Then God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”

18 And the Lord God said, “It is not good that man should be alone; I will make him a helper comparable to him.”
Genesis 1:26-28, 2:18 NKJV

So, God created the woman to be a helper comparable to Adam and they would have dominion. I don't see where it says they would have dominion under Adam's direction and I haven't found anywhere where God said man must lord it over women.

It has nothing to do with men lording anything over women, but the line of authority and roles that God ordained.

We wrestled with this in our call committee when we were considering calling our pastor. Honestly, after interviewing them, she seemed to us to be the most Biblically sound of the three. One of them was ordained in the Lutheran Brethren tradition and when we asked him about some of the possible sticking points between that and our Lutheran denomination, he replied, I can work with whatever. In other words, his convictions were lacking.

Here's where I came to rest on this. There is a history of corrupt male pastors in all denominations, so calling a male does not guarantee righteous leadership. I have not known a church that opposes female pastors including Catholic, Lutheran Brethren, Southern Baptist, and Lutheran Church Missouri Synod, that does not allow women to teach Bible studies, Sunday School classes, or fill other leadership roles in the church. I have to say this sure sounds hypocritical.

Of course there is a history of corrupt male pastors and being male doesn't guarantee righteousness, but how would that nullify any line of authority and roles that God ordained? Such men have to be dealt with; it doesn't necessarily mean that they can replaced by women, especially since women can be corrupt as well.

It's about having a position that puts a female in spiritual authority over men within the context of the gathered assembly. Biblically, within the Church, it seems that women can teach children and other women (Tit. 2:3-5):

Tit 2:3 Older women likewise are to be reverent in behavior, not slanderers or slaves to much wine. They are to teach what is good,
Tit 2:4 and so train the young women to love their husbands and children,
Tit 2:5 to be self-controlled, pure, working at home, kind, and submissive to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be reviled. (ESV)

 

[Free]

If one claims that the "I" in verses recently cited is God, then indeed, we have massive contradiction. But it's not. God has quoted many different people, into His Holy Scripture. And I will suggest that the only time we are to take a voice as God Himself, is where and when it is written as a quote of God Himself.

If all Scripture is inspired and given by God, who else could the "I" ultimately refer to? If it isn't God who inspired Paul to write what he did, then we need to throw our Bibles out.

 

[jonathanbrickman0000]

If all Scripture is inspired and given by God, who else could the "I" ultimately refer to? If it isn't God who inspired Paul to write what he did, then we need to throw our Bibles out.

God has quoted many different people into the Holy Scriptures. We must not confuse other people with God.

 

[Christ_empowered]

I think this is one of those hard teachings of the Bible…

Harder these days because of social and economic changes.

It’s sort of like…personal example…I can daydream about a world where same sex relationships are ok and actually last etc…

But the Bible is solidly against the practice and such a world does not exist.