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eddif said:
Hebrews 11:10
10. For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

Not a physical city, but a creation of God. The New Jerusalem has angels at the gates and is built on foundations containing the names of the 12 apostles.

Revelation 21:23
The New Jerusalem has no need of the sun or moon.

IMHO the New Jerusalem seems more spiritual than physical.

We are the dwelling place of God. He comes into us. We are not perfect yet; just as Israel was not perfect when Jesus was on earth.

Physical Jerusalem was a shadow of things to come.

eddif
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Hi Eddif,

Isaiah prophesies of the New Jerusalem and it seems obvious from his words that it is a physical place. For instance,

17 "For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind.
18 But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create; For behold, I create Jerusalem as a rejoicing, And her people a joy.
19 I will rejoice in Jerusalem, And joy in My people; The voice of weeping shall no longer be heard in her, Nor the voice of crying.
20 "No more shall an infant from there live but a few days, Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days; For the child shall die one hundred years old, But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed.
21 They shall build houses and inhabit them; They shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
22 They shall not build and another inhabit; They shall not plant and another eat; For as the days of a tree, so shall be the days of My people, And My elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
23 They shall not labor in vain, Nor bring forth children for trouble; For they shall be the descendants of the blessed of the LORD, And their offspring with them.
24 "It shall come to pass That before they call, I will answer; And while they are still speaking, I will hear.
25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, The lion shall eat straw like the ox, And dust shall be the serpent's food. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain," Says the LORD.
(Isa 65:17-1 NKJ)

He says weeping shall no longer he heard in her. That implies that weeping is being heard in her. It seems to me that this is referring to the present Jerusalem.
 
Ezekiel 2:1-2
1. And he said unto me , Son of man, stand upon thy feet, and I will speak unto thee .
2. And the spirit entered into me when he spake unto me, and set me upon my feet, that I heard him that spake unto me.

eddif
 
Butch5 said:
I don't know. However, I wonder if there are hyperoble.
Click to expand...
And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. (‭Revelation‬ ‭21‬:‭2‬ KJV)

Hyperbole is an exaggeration right? If John was allowed to see the city and the angel helped him measure it, I'm not sure why the measurements would be exaggerated? The new Jerusalem is said to come down from heaven in Revelation 21:2. According to that verse I think it could be quite different.
 
Butch5 said:
Yeah, we're far apart on that passage. I see all active verbs in the passage meaning that the one who is the new creation is the one doing the action of the verbs, thus we are changing ourselves. If the verbs were passive I'd be more apt to lean your way.
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But then this means the one who changes their behavior IS one who has been made a new creation (first), not that they are made the new creation because they changed their behavior. For example, what does Paul mean when he says "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy He saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Spirit"? When one believes as the scriptures have said (as they define belief) then out of his belly will flow rivers of living waters (the Spirit within pours out to the unsaved world)...the changes in behavior are a product, a fruit, not that which obtains, earns, or merits. One born of the Spirit is the child of the Spirit, one born of the flesh is the child of the flesh...both can follow a set of directions but only one counts. An Atheist can do good things (they can even obey all ten commandments) but they are not saved by their good doing...We are saved by grace unto the good works God would have us to do (Ephesians 2:8-10)....not saved because of the good works we do...
 
brother Paul said:
But then this means the one who changes their behavior IS one who has been made a new creation (first), not that they are made the new creation because they changed their behavior. For example, what does Paul mean when he says "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy He saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Spirit"? When one believes as the scriptures have said (as they define belief) then out of his belly will flow rivers of living waters (the Spirit within pours out to the unsaved world)...the changes in behavior are a product, a fruit, not that which obtains, earns, or merits. One born of the Spirit is the child of the Spirit, one born of the flesh is the child of the flesh...both can follow a set of directions but only one counts. An Atheist can do good things (they can even obey all ten commandments) but they are not saved by their good doing...We are saved by grace unto the good works God would have us to do (Ephesians 2:8-10)....not saved because of the good works we do...
Click to expand...

Hi Paul,

This gets into a whole new area. I believe the works issue is greatly misunderstood. When Paul speaks of not being saved by works, I believe that he is speaking of an issue that was an issue in his day. I don't believe it is a something that Christians really have to deal with today. If you look into the works issue the first thing to note is that Paul is only one who really addresses the issue. James touches on it somewhat but it is mainly an issue Paul dealt with. The question is why? If we look at the text surrounding many of the works passages the context will show that the works Paul is speaking of are the work of the Mosaic Law. In Acts 15 and Galatians 3 we see the Judaizers who were telling the new Gentile believers that in addition to faith in Christ it was also necessary for them to be circumcised and keep the Law of Moses. This is what Paul is arguing against when he says one is not saved by works. I don't believe this is an issue that is a problem in the Church today.

I believe this teaching that one is not saved by works, when they define works as anything one does goes against the teachings of Scripture.
 
Butch5 said:
Hi Paul,

This gets into a whole new area. I believe the works issue is greatly misunderstood. When Paul speaks of not being saved by works, I believe that he is speaking of an issue that was an issue in his day. I don't believe it is a something that Christians really have to deal with today. If you look into the works issue the first thing to note is that Paul is only one who really addresses the issue. James touches on it somewhat but it is mainly an issue Paul dealt with. The question is why? If we look at the text surrounding many of the works passages the context will show that the works Paul is speaking of are the work of the Mosaic Law. In Acts 15 and Galatians 3 we see the Judaizers who were telling the new Gentile believers that in addition to faith in Christ it was also necessary for them to be circumcised and keep the Law of Moses. This is what Paul is arguing against when he says one is not saved by works. I don't believe this is an issue that is a problem in the Church today.

I believe this teaching that one is not saved by works, when they define works as anything one does goes against the teachings of Scripture.
Click to expand...
James 2:26 Faith without works is dead because the lack of works reveals an unchanged life or a spirtually dead heart.
Works alone does not justify us before God.Works are not the cause of the salvation;works are the evidence of salvation.
 
Kathi said:
James 2:26 Faith without works is dead because the lack of works reveals an unchanged life or a spirtually dead heart.
Works alone does not justify us before God.Works are not the cause of the salvation;works are the evidence of salvation.
Click to expand...

Hi Kathi,

I'm not suggesting that works save anyone. One must believe and have works. However, the idea that James is saying the works are the evidence of faith, does not fit with the words and grammar that James used. The words he chose mean that his faith and his works worked together.
 
Butch5 said:
Hi Kathi,

I'm not suggesting that works save anyone. One must believe and have works. However, the idea that James is saying the works are the evidence of faith, does not fit with the words and grammar that James used. The words he chose mean that his faith and his works worked together.
Click to expand...
Right,you have to have both.Thinking that you will get to heaven only on works which some religions believe will not get you to heaven
 
Kathi said:
Right,you have to have both.Thinking that you will get to heaven only on works which some religions believe will not get you to heaven
Click to expand...
I agree that both are needed but I don't agree about going to Heaven, thus the OP.
 
Kathi said:
If there is a heaven then who is there?Why did God make heaven?What do you think happens to the souls of believers who have died?
Click to expand...

When we a "A Heaven" what do we mean? The word has several meanings. When a believer dies the body goes to dust and the breath of life goes to God and the soul doesn't exist because the two parts that made it have gone to different places.
 
Butch5 said:
When we a "A Heaven" what do we mean? The word has several meanings. When a believer dies the body goes to dust and the breath of life goes to God and the soul doesn't exist because the two parts that made it have gone to different places.
Click to expand...
:confused I am sorry you lost me.That is not what the Word of God tells me.
 
Butch5 said:
I don't think everyone will be there. I think since there's a whole world in the restoration that people will be all over it.
Click to expand...
So some will reside in the city of New Jerusalem and some on the New Earth? I should say on the New Earth but outside of the city.
 
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