Butch5
Member
That's how I understand it
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Bible Study Earth, not Heaven
- Thread starter Butch5
- Start date
That's how I understand it
I would be interested in what you believe.I am sorry you lost me.That is not what the Word of God tells me.
Frustration does not need to defeat us.
Perhaps using John 1:14
The word becoming flesh can be a source of correct belief.
eddif
Ezekiel 11:16
Therefore say, Thus saith The Lord God, Although I have cast them far off among the heathen, and although i have scattered them among the countries, yet will I be to them a little sanctuary in the countries where they shall come.
While the land does exist, there seems to be a spiritual aspect to the relationship between man and God that will keep man even in dispersion.
The New Jerusalem has no need of sun and moon, the sea will be no more (when the earth had passed away) Revelation 21:1, the cube seems to replace the orb, etc.
IMHO the New Jerusalem is in my born again Mind of Christ. My flesh is still with me, and I desperately need Jesus interceding for me, and Holy Spirit resisting my flesh.
Isaiah 65:17
The new heavens and new earth
The former things shall not be remembered
The new birth (not entering into our mothers womb a second time) IMHO leaves us with possibly Jeremiah 31:33
The new birth is probably not heaven.
There is a change in us now, but the flesh is still around till the last trump. At the last trump (IMHO) the fleshly things will be changed into something past all my experience (except what my mind has seen - visions and dreams, and scripture has described).
eddif
Therefore say, Thus saith The Lord God, Although I have cast them far off among the heathen, and although i have scattered them among the countries, yet will I be to them a little sanctuary in the countries where they shall come.
While the land does exist, there seems to be a spiritual aspect to the relationship between man and God that will keep man even in dispersion.
The New Jerusalem has no need of sun and moon, the sea will be no more (when the earth had passed away) Revelation 21:1, the cube seems to replace the orb, etc.
IMHO the New Jerusalem is in my born again Mind of Christ. My flesh is still with me, and I desperately need Jesus interceding for me, and Holy Spirit resisting my flesh.
Isaiah 65:17
The new heavens and new earth
The former things shall not be remembered
The new birth (not entering into our mothers womb a second time) IMHO leaves us with possibly Jeremiah 31:33
The new birth is probably not heaven.
There is a change in us now, but the flesh is still around till the last trump. At the last trump (IMHO) the fleshly things will be changed into something past all my experience (except what my mind has seen - visions and dreams, and scripture has described).
eddif
Butch5
Member
I'm not sure I'm following you here.
Butch5
Member
Hi Jeff,
I'm not sure. We know the apostles were be there because Jesus said,
2 "In My Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you2.
3 "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. (Joh 14:2-3 NKJ)
Isaiah speaks of God's people being there but doesn't specify who they are.
18 But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create; For behold, I create Jerusalem as a rejoicing, And her people a joy.
19 I will rejoice in Jerusalem, And joy in My people; The voice of weeping shall no longer be heard in her, Nor the voice of crying.
20 "No more shall an infant from there live but a few days, Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days; For the child shall die one hundred years old, But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed.
21 They shall build houses and inhabit them; They shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
22 They shall not build and another inhabit; They shall not plant and another eat; For as the days of a tree, so shall be the days of My people, And My elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
23 They shall not labor in vain, Nor bring forth children for trouble; For they shall be the descendants of the blessed of the LORD, And their offspring with them.
24 "It shall come to pass That before they call, I will answer; And while they are still speaking, I will hear.
25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, The lion shall eat straw like the ox, And dust shall be the serpent's food. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain," Says the LORD.
(Isa 65:18-25 NKJ)
15 He who walks righteously and speaks uprightly, He who despises the gain of oppressions, Who gestures with his hands, refusing bribes, Who stops his ears from hearing of bloodshed, And shuts his eyes from seeing evil:
16 He will dwell on high; His place of defense will be the fortress of rocks; Bread will be given him, His water will be sure.
17 Your eyes will see the King in His beauty; They will see the land that is very far off.
18 Your heart will meditate on terror: "Where is the scribe? Where is he who weighs? Where is he who counts the towers?"
19 You will not see a fierce people, A people of obscure speech, beyond perception, Of a stammering tongue that you cannot understand.
20 Look upon Zion, the city of our appointed feasts; Your eyes will see Jerusalem, a quiet home, A tabernacle that will not be taken down; Not one of its stakes will ever be removed, Nor will any of its cords be broken.
21 But there the majestic LORD will be for us A place of broad rivers and streams, In which no galley with oars will sail, Nor majestic ships pass by
22 (For the LORD is our Judge, The LORD is our Lawgiver, The LORD is our King; He will save us);
23 Your tackle is loosed, They could not strengthen their mast, They could not spread the sail. Then the prey of great plunder is divided; The lame take the prey.
24 And the inhabitant will not say, "I am sick"; The people who dwell in it will be forgiven their iniquity. (Isa 33:15-24 NKJ)
Chopper
Member
Hi Butch, I'm jumping in a little late. After reading your OP I find your thinking very good. I have wondered about the new heavens and earth and the New Jerusalem. I believe you are right in saying that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob never possessed that Land of promise. They were sojourners. It makes sense to me that the Promised Land that was promised to Abraham is future. You and I will find our place in that great land. Thank you for bringing this topic up, I needed that.
Butch5
Member
You're welcome Chopper!
Roro1972
Member
when I look up furlong I see it is 220 yards long whereas you say it is 1500mile
there is alot of difference in 1500 miles and 220 yards ( 1/8 mile )
TimothyW
Member
If my math is correct, then Jerusalem will be a cube 150 miles on a side. But I feel weird applying a calculator to Symbolic Apocalyptic Literature. What is John of Patmos's intention in writing Rev 21:16?
Roro1972
Member
I do not know Johns intension for writing.
I was trying to clear up the distance of a furlong. 220 yds vs 1500 miles
Wasn't there a "condition" attached to God's promise that the Israelites broke?
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TimothyW
Member
Yes, I understand. I appreciated your post. I should have said so.
turnorburn
Member
Say Butch i noticed in your opening post you saying "I don't hold the position that man goes into Heaven at any point" how so?
tob
tob
TimothyW
Member
Hi Tob,
That's an interesting question. I think Butch said why he believes that in his OP. But I will wait for his reply. In the meantime, perhaps we could re-read the OP.
Butch5
Member
There was no condition in the promise to Abraham. The Jews entering the land under Joshua did have conditions.
Butch5
Member
Hi TOB,
I don't see anything in Scripture that suggests that people go to Heaven when they die. That idea was prevalent among the Greeks in the time of the New Testament. I believe that idea infiltrated the church as more and more Greek Gentiles became Christians.
What Bible are you reading?There are many,many verses in Scripture that says a believer goes to heaven when they die.l have said this more than once.I guess you are going to believe what you choose to believe
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Butch5
Member
What Bible are you reading?There are many,many verses in Scripture that says a believer goes to heaven when they die.l have said this more than once.I guess you are going to believe what you choose to believe
Hi Kathi,
Actually, there aren't. What happens is that Christians already believe that when they read those passages and read it into the text. There is not single passage of Scripture that states outright that Christians go to Heaven when they die. One passage many use to say Christians go to Heaven ins John 14.
2 "In My Father's house are many mansions1; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you2.
3 "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.
4 "And where I go you know, and the way you know." (Joh 14:2-4 NKJ)
It is claimed that this passage shows that believers go to Heaven when they die. However, this passage says nothing at all about Heaven, it doesn't even use the word Heaven. The passage says nothing about anyone dying and it was spoken to the apostles. Many "assume" that "my Father's house" is a reference to Heaven, yet it's not. Look at the phrase in Scripture, it's a reference to the temple. In Scripture God's house is the temple. It's assumptions and inferences when reading such passages that lead to the belief that the Bible teaches that people go to Heaven.
I guess you will have to find that out yourself when you die.