T.U.L.I.P. - Perseverance of the Saints

OzSpen said:

Who said so? That is not written in Matt 24. It's your view, but you don't get it from an exegesis of that text.

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The great tribulation that Jesus mentioned in verse 21, is associated with events that take place just before the coming of the Lord.


The abomination of desolation standing in the holy place is the trigger, for when they ”see” this, there will be great tribulation.



Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. Matthew 24:15-21



JLB

OzSpen said:

βίβλος = biblos refers to the inner bark of the papyrus plant, a scroll, or a book. It does not specifically refer to the Bible.

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You the word bible is not in the Bible, I simply am pointing out that it is.


I didn’t say the word biblion only refers to, or specifically refers ”the Bible”, just that the Greek word biblion, which is where the English word Bible comes from.


Bible means “book”.

Book in the scripture I quoted is biblion in the Greek.


Bring the cloak that I left with Carpus at Troas when you come—and the books, especially the parchments. 2 Timothy 4:13


The Bible is one book that is made up of many books.



JLB

JLB said:

The great tribulation that Jesus mentioned in verse 21, is associated with events that take place just before the coming of the Lord.

The abomination of desolation standing in the holy place is the trigger, for when they ”see” this, there will be great tribulation.

Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. Matthew 24:15-21

JLB

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That's your interpretation. Most evangelical scholars (e.g. D A Carson) do not agree with you.

OzSpen said:

That's your interpretation. Most evangelical scholars (e.g. D A Carson) do not agree with you.

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They disagree that the great tribulation that Jesus mentioned in Matthew 24:21 is not really the great tribulation?

What do they did agree with?



JLB

JLB said:

They disagree that the great tribulation that Jesus mentioned in Matthew 24:21 is not really the great tribulation?

What do they did agree with?

JLB

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Do you want me to quote D A Carson?

OzSpen said:

Do you want me to quote D A Carson?

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I quoted Jesus, and you want to quote D A Carson?


For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.
“Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. See, I have told you beforehand.
“Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.
“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:21-31


The great tribulation is associated with the coming of the Lord, and the gathering of the saints at the resurrection and rapture.


This event is yet future.


Do you believe the coming of the Lord and the resurrection is past?




JLB

JLB said:

I quoted Jesus, and you want to quote D A Carson?


For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.
“Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. See, I have told you beforehand.
“Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.
“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:21-31


The great tribulation is associated with the coming of the Lord, and the gathering of the saints at the resurrection and rapture.


This event is yet future.


Do you believe the coming of the Lord and the resurrection is past?




JLB

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JLB,

It was you who stated:

What on earth does this last question ask: 'What do they did agree with?' Who is the one who is confused?

To your post here I offered an evangelical scholar, D A Carson, who does not agree with your interpretation of Matt 24:21. I offered to provide his explanation, but now you want to shrug that off.

If this is what you continue to do to my posts, I'm not going to continue to deal with your banter. I have better things to do with my time.

Oz

OzSpen said:

To your post here I offered an evangelical scholar, D A Carson, who does not agree with your interpretation of Matt 24:21. I offered to provide his explanation, but now you want to shrug that off.

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I asked what do the scholars you are referring to, disagree with?


I only pointed out the the context of the scripture you gave, in verse 13, “those who endure to the end”..., was contextually linked to the great tribulation.


You seem to disagree.


I then gave the context of verse 13 through verse 21, to show why.


But he who endures to the end shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come. “Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. Matthew 24:13-21


The “end” that Jesus refers to in verse 14, And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come... refers to the end of the age.




Again, my question to you is —


Do you believe the coming of the Lord and the resurrection is past?



JLB

JLB said:

I asked what do the scholars you are referring to, disagree with?

I only pointed out the the context of the scripture you gave, in verse 13, “those who endure to the end”..., was contextually linked to the great tribulation.

You seem to disagree.

I then gave the context of verse 13 through verse 21, to show why.

But he who endures to the end shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come. “Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. Matthew 24:13-21

The “end” that Jesus refers to in verse 14, And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come... refers to the end of the age.

Again, my question to you is —

Do you believe the coming of the Lord and the resurrection is past?



JLB

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JLB,

Of course I don't believe the coming of the Lord and the resurrection of the saints is past. That would make me a Preterist.

Jesus' audience in Matt 24 in the Sermon on the Mount was his disciples.

You make v. 14 mean the end of the age. That is not based on the context of what follows:


Take a read of Josephus, Wars of the Jews (Bk V, ch 10, vv 2-3) to read of the horrific things done to people at the time of the Fall of Jerusalem in AD 70.

In Matt 24:17-20 we have the reasons for the flight away from this horror. The savagery and slaughter were so severe that they were unequalled up until the Fall of Jerusalem.

If this distress refers to the 'great Tribulation' as you indicate, this cannot be so as the next thing that is supposed to happen is the Millennium or the new heaven and the new earth.

So, it can't mean the end of the age unless one wants to exclude the Millennium.

Oz

OzSpen said:

You make v. 14 mean the end of the age. That is not based on the context of what follows:

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Jesus is answering their question.

All of Matthew 24:4 through 25:46 is His response to this question.


Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?” Matthew 24:3



And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
Matthew 24:6


And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come. Matthew 24:14


“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Matthew 24:29-31



The end in verse 3, verse 6, and verse 14, refers to the end of the age.


The great tribulation occurs before His coming and the end of the age.


Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.



JLB

OzSpen said:

So, it can't mean the end of the age unless one wants to exclude the Millennium

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Jesus answered and said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage. But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.
Luke 20:34-36

• But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead,

The age to come occurs just after His coming and the resurrection.



JLB

JLB said:

Jesus answered and said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage. But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.
Luke 20:34-36

• But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead,

The age to come occurs just after His coming and the resurrection.



JLB

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You don't know how to stay true to your intent for this thread.

You are pushing your agenda. When you started this thread you stated this was not your intent. Why are you being hypocritical on this matter?

OzSpen said:

You don't know how to stay true to your intent for this thread.

You are pushing your agenda. When you started this thread you stated this was not your intent. Why are you being hypocritical on this matter?
View attachment 9505

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As I said, if you ask me a question I will answer it.


Besides that was the TULIP thread I started, this is Wonderings thread she started.



JLB

JLB said:

God loves us and desires us to be close to Him.

If we wander away from Him, He longs for us to return to Him, as a Father who longs for a wayward son to return home.

Nevertheless, we must make the choice to return to Him.

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• God loves us and desires us to be close to Him.
  • Please provide Scripture supporting this.

• If we wander away from Him, He longs for us to return to Him.
  • Please provide Scripture supporting this.

• We must make the choice to return to Him.
  • Please provide Scripture supporting this.

atpollard said:

• God loves us and desires us to be close to Him.
  • Please provide Scripture supporting this.

• If we wander away from Him, He longs for us to return to Him.
  • Please provide Scripture supporting this.

• We must make the choice to return to Him.
  • Please provide Scripture supporting this.

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“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7

again


Then He said: “A certain man had two sons. And the younger of them said to his father, ‘Father, give me the portion of goods that falls to me.’ So he divided to them his livelihood. And not many days after, the younger son gathered all together, journeyed to a far country, and there wasted his possessions with prodigal living. But when he had spent all, there arose a severe famine in that land, and he began to be in want. Then he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country, and he sent him into his fields to feed swine. And he would gladly have filled his stomach with the pods that the swine ate, and no one gave him anything.
“But when he came to himself, he said, ‘How many of my father’s hired servants have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger! I will arise and go to my father, and will say to him, “Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you, and I am no longer worthy to be called your son. Make me like one of your hired servants.” ’
“And he arose and came to his father. But when he was still a great way off, his father saw him and had compassion, and ran and fell on his neck and kissed him. And the son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and in your sight, and am no longer worthy to be called your son.’
“But the father said to his servants, ‘Bring out the best robe and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand and sandals on his feet. And bring the fatted calf here and kill it, and let us eat and be merry; for this my son was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ And they began to be merry.
“Now his older son was in the field. And as he came and drew near to the house, he heard music and dancing. So he called one of the servants and asked what these things meant. And he said to him, ‘Your brother has come, and because he has received him safe and sound, your father has killed the fatted calf.’
“But he was angry and would not go in. Therefore his father came out and pleaded with him.
So he answered and said to his father, ‘Lo, these many years I have been serving you; I never transgressed your commandment at any time; and yet you never gave me a young goat, that I might make merry with my friends. But as soon as this son of yours came, who has devoured your livelihood with harlots, you killed the fatted calf for him.’
“And he said to him, ‘Son, you are always with me, and all that I have is yours. It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’ ” Luke 15:11-32




JLB

JLB said:

I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

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Just to be clear, which of your three statements does this support?

• God loves us and desires us to be close to Him.
• If we wander away from Him, He longs for us to return to Him.
• We must make the choice to return to Him.

If we are going to take this parable as a literal “word picture” of God and salvation, then the first part ...

JLB said:

What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it?

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... describes God doing EXACTLY what Calvinists claim God does.

• (T) The sheep cannot save itself.
• (U) So God chooses to go and get the sheep.
• (L) God only searches and recovers His sheep, God was not looking for any other sheep that might happen to be lost and want to follow God home.
• (I) God carries the sheep on His shoulders, giving it no choice to follow or not to follow.
• (P) God carries the sheep all the way home, leaving no chance that the sheep might fall away during the journey.

This parable seems to teach exactly the opposite of “God desires” but “man decides” which is what your 3 OPINIONS claim. The Shepherd did not “desire” while the lost sheep “decided”.

atpollard said:

Just to be clear, which of your three statements does this support?

• God loves us and desires us to be close to Him.
• If we wander away from Him, He longs for us to return to Him.
• We must make the choice to return to Him.

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All Three.

atpollard said:

... describes God doing EXACTLY what Calvinists claim God does.

• (T) The sheep cannot save itself.
• (U) So God chooses to go and get the sheep.
• (L) God only searches and recovers His sheep, God was not looking for any other sheep that might happen to be lost and want to follow God home.
• (I) God carries the sheep on His shoulders, giving it no choice to follow or not to follow.
• (P) God carries the sheep all the way home, leaving no chance that the sheep might fall away during the journey.

This parable seems to teach exactly the opposite of “God desires” but “man decides” which is what your 3 OPINIONS claim. The Shepherd did not “desire” while the lost sheep “decided”

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Maybe you are reading this teaching from Christ through the “eyes” of a preconceived understanding rather than letting His words instruct you.

you seem to be forcing your TULIP theology into the teaching of Christ, rather than allowing His teaching to form your theology.


The “sheep” being described in His teaching are His Sheep.

Jesus is giving instruction to His disciples in the hearing of the Pharisee, as to how to go after His sheep who become lost, knowing His time is short, He is imparting to them Heavens desire for His sheep who wander away and become lost, to be found and return to God and be reconciled back to Him, through repentance.

This is completely unlike Calvinism, where that theology just writes off these as “having never been saved”, (if they go out from us.)


His sheep, who become lost, have returned to being labeled as “sinners” in need of repentance.

IOW, His sheep who become lost must repent, in order to be reconciled back to God just as a sinner who has never believed.


This teaching couldn’t be any more opposed to Calvinism, and exposes it a man’s doctrine, just as you have so aptly shown by try brand your TULIP acronym onto the teaching of Christ.



JLB

JLB said:

This teaching couldn’t be any more opposed to Calvinism, and exposes it a man’s doctrine, just as you have so aptly shown by try brand your TULIP acronym onto the teaching of Christ.

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???

So Luke says:

• "What man among you, if he has a hundred sheep and has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open pasture and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? "When he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. "And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and his neighbors, saying to them, 'Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!' "I tell you that in the same way, there will be [more] joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance. [Luke 15:4-7 NASB]

... and Calvinism says:

• The sheep cannot save itself (Total Inability), so God goes to get His sheep (Unconditional and Irresistible Election).

... but YOU claim that Calvinism has it completely wrong.

• So God does not go after the sheep, but stays at home and patiently waiting for any sheep or goats or wolves-in-sheep-clothing that feel like coming to God to just respond to His invitation from the porch?
• I am left speechless by the difference between your interpretation and the words in the parable.

atpollard said:

???

So Luke says:

• "What man among you, if he has a hundred sheep and has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open pasture and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? "When he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. "And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and his neighbors, saying to them, 'Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!' "I tell you that in the same way, there will be [more] joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance. [Luke 15:4-7 NASB]

... and Calvinism says:

• The sheep cannot save itself (Total Inability), so God goes to get His sheep (Unconditional and Irresistible Election).

... but YOU claim that Calvinism has it completely wrong.

• So God does not go after the sheep, but stays at home and patiently waiting for any sheep or goats or wolves-in-sheep-clothing that feel like coming to God to just respond to His invitation from the porch?
• I am left speechless by the difference between your interpretation and the words in the parable.

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God does not go after the sheep.

As I said, Jesus is giving instruction to His disciples in the hearing of the Pharisee, as to how to go after His sheep who become lost, knowing His time is short, He is imparting to them Heavens desire for His sheep who wander away and become lost, to be found and return to God and be reconciled back to Him, through repentance.

Disciples of Jesus Christ, followers of Jesus Christ go after His sheep, believers, born again Christians, who wander away and become lost.


Jesus is in heaven, seated at the right hand of God.


He gave instructions to His disciples, to teach their disciples, all the things He taught them.

Here is what He told Peter to do...


He said to him again a second time, “Simon, son of Jonah, do you love Me?”
He said to Him, “Yes, Lord; You know that I love You.”
He said to him, “Tend My sheep.”
John 21:16


A believer in Jesus Christ, a born again Christian, one of His sheep who becomes lost, is now identified as a sinner in need of repentance.

• my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

This is the opposite of what Calvinism teaches.



Do the lost need salvation?




JLB