T.U.L.I.P. - Perseverance of the Saints

[Butch5]

??
Yes. Maybe we could have a different thread and discuss this a bit. I've never heard this. Do you have a link to your site?

I do, but I don't have anything written about this. My site is at the bottom of my posts.

We could ask JLB to start a new topic or discuss it on the open board.

 

[GodsGrace]

I do, but I don't have anything written about this. My site is at the bottom of my posts.

We could ask JLB to start a new topic or discuss it on the open board.

We're allowed to start topics...
This could also be discussed in the open board under
THEOLOGY....I'd say (closest thing to it I think).

Would you like the honors?
Tag me in.

 

[Butch5]

We're allowed to start topics...
This could also be discussed in the open board under
THEOLOGY....I'd say (closest thing to it I think).

Would you like the honors?
Tag me in.

Where would you like and how do I tag you in?

 

[GodsGrace]

Where would you like and how do I tag you in?

I'll do this, but hubby is calling me right now.

I'll put in in THEOLOGY (the regular one)....
You tag a person by @ and then their name......

Also, how to word it? Let me think on it a minute.
If you do this first....just, at the end of your O.P. just type in
@ and my name....

Later.

 

[OzSpen]

You didn't tell me whether or not I'm an Arminian !!
I don't believe in TOTAL depravity.

Awaiting my score.

wondering,

Do you believe:

1. Human beings do not have saving grace within themselves;
2. Can they by the choice of their free will be saved?
3. Are all human beings in a state of sin and opposed to God?
4. Can you or any human being do what is truly good before God and that at judgment day He will judge as God's righteousness?
5. Can you be born again in Christ without the Holy Spirit and without the renewing of your inclination, will, powers, understanding?

So far, you have indicated you are a 4/5 Reformed/Classical Arminian.

Oz

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering,

Do you believe:

1. Human beings do not have saving grace within themselves?
2. Can they by the choice of their free will be saved?
3. Are all human beings in a state of sin and opposed to God?
4. Can you or any human being do what is truly good before God and that at judgment day He will judge as God's righteousness?
5. Can you be born again in Christ without the Holy Spirit and without the renewing of your inclination, will, powers, understanding?

So far, you have indicated you are a 4/5 Reformed/Classical Arminian.

Oz

These questions are a bit more complicated....

1. I believe God gives everyone ENOUGH grace to become saved IF THEY WANT TO.

2. I do believe one can be saved of their free choice...IF they believe in God and obey Him.

3. Yes.

4. I believe the answer is NO...if by "doing good" you mean by works ONLY. Our works, without faith, will not save us.

5. No.


Am I still a 4/5?

If so, is it correct to be called an Arminian?

 

[OzSpen]

These questions are a bit more complicated....

1. I believe God gives everyone ENOUGH grace to become saved IF THEY WANT TO.

2. I do believe one can be saved of their free choice...IF they believe in God and obey Him.

3. Yes.

4. I believe the answer is NO...if by "doing good" you mean by works ONLY. Our works, without faith, will not save us.

5. No.


Am I still a 4/5?

If so, is it correct to be called an Arminian?

wondering,

I'm a bit concerned about your statement:

2. I do believe one can be saved of their free choice...IF they believe in God and obey Him.

For you, does that mean that there is no drawing power by God for you to be saved?

Oz

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering,

I'm a bit concerned about your statement:



For you, does that mean that there is no drawing power by God for you to be saved?

Oz

My statement was that one could be saved by believing in God and obeying Him.

Isn't this what we do?
I think God draws all men to Himself.

Another member on this site has said that the word "draws" means to irresistibly drag ...IOW, God drags some to salvation.
As you know, I do not believe this...
I believe God woos everyone to Himself,,,then we either choose Him or not.

So, yes, there IS a drawing power.
What do you say of the word DRAW in
John 6:44a
44“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him;

 

[JLB]

Perseverance of the saints may be conditional on the believer remaining in Christ?

Please show the scripture that uses this phrase
“perseverance of the saints”.



JLB

 

[JLB]

wondering,

Let's check you out to see whether you are an Arminian:

The Bible calls those who believe and follow Jesus Christ;
Christians.


What is an Arminian, and where is this word found in scripture?


Is an Arminian a person who follows the teachings of a man?

Is a Calvinist a person who follows the teachings of Calvinism?


If we are followers of Jesus Christ and His teachings, then there is a place for us to have common ground; unity


If a person claims to follow a man and his teachings, then they are what the Bible calls carnal; immature, babes in Christ


And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able; for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men? For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not carnal? 1 Corinthians 3:1-4


Why label the Lord’s people with names of other men and their teachings?


Isnt this divisive?



JLB

 

[OzSpen]

My statement was that one could be saved by believing in God and obeying Him.

Isn't this what we do?
I think God draws all men to Himself.

Another member on this site has said that the word "draws" means to irresistibly drag ...IOW, God drags some to salvation.
As you know, I do not believe this...
I believe God woos everyone to Himself,,,then we either choose Him or not.

So, yes, there IS a drawing power.
What do you say of the word DRAW in
John 6:44a
44“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him;

wondering,

John 6:44 needs to be married to John 12:32 (ESV): 'And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself'. So, Jesus doesn't draw an elect and leave the rest to be damned.

Since his crucifixion and resurrection, he draws all people, but they have the ability to resist that drawing power. How do we know? All people are not saved and never will be saved - even though God is not wanting any to perish.

Let's look at the exegesis of John 6:44 by A. T. Robertson, eminent Greek scholar of the 20th century:

Except the Father draw him (ean mh elkush auton). Negative condition of third class with ean mh and first aorist active subjunctive of elkuw, older form elkw, to drag like a net ( John 21:6 ), or sword ( John 18:10 ), or men ( Acts 16:19 ), to draw by moral power (12:32 ), as in Jeremiah 31:3 . Surw, the other word to drag ( Acts 8:3 ; Acts 14:19 ) is not used of Christ's drawing power. The same point is repeated in verse 65 . The approach of the soul to God is initiated by God, the other side of verse 37. See Romans 8:7 for the same doctrine and use of oude dunatai like oudei dunatai here (source).​

​

So, it is an error to say that 'draw' in John 6:44 means to drag as a completely different word in used in John 6:44 to that for dragging in Acts 8:3; 14:19. This is what happens when a person doesn't know the truth of the original languages.

Bauer, Arndt & Gingrich's Greek Lexicon (1957:251) gives the meaning of elkw in John 6:44 as 'figuratively of the pull on man's inner life ... draw, attract' [also in 12:32].

I hope that helps to clear up the meaning of 'draw' in John 6:44.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Please show the scripture that uses this phrase
“perseverance of the saints”.

JLB

JLB,

In Jesus' Oliver Discourse he stated: 'But the one who endures to the end will be saved' (Matt 24:13 ESV).

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

The Bible calls those who believe and follow Jesus Christ;
Christians.


What is an Arminian, and where is this word found in scripture?


Is an Arminian a person who follows the teachings of a man?

Is a Calvinist a person who follows the teachings of Calvinism?


If we are followers of Jesus Christ and His teachings, then there is a place for us to have common ground; unity


If a person claims to follow a man and his teachings, then they are what the Bible calls carnal; immature, babes in Christ


And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able; for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men? For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not carnal? 1 Corinthians 3:1-4


Why label the Lord’s people with names of other men and their teachings?


Isnt this divisive?



JLB

You know the answers to these questions. To me, it seems you are being impudent.

 

[JLB]

JLB,

In Jesus' Oliver Discourse he stated: 'But the one who endures to the end will be saved' (Matt 24:13 ESV).

Oz

Do you believe we as Christians must make the choice to endure under persecution, that is to say remain faithful to Jesus Christ while being persecuted, even unto death, in order to be saved?



JLB

 

[JLB]

You know the answers to these questions. To me, it seems you are being impudent.

Where do these labels come from such as Calvinism or Arminianism come from, if not from Christ.


To me such labels such as these, as well as Baptist, Mormon, Catholic and so forth only serve to divide the body of Christ into separate groups.


This is not conducive to the unity of the faith.




JLB

 

[JLB]

wondering,

John 6:44 needs to be married to John 12:32 (ESV): 'And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself'. So, Jesus doesn't draw an elect and leave the rest to be damned.

Since his crucifixion and resurrection, he draws all people, but they have the ability to resist that drawing power. How do we know? All people are not saved and never will be saved - even though God is not wanting any to perish.

Amen.



JLB

 

[OzSpen]

Do you believe we as Christians must make the choice to endure under persecution, that is to say remain faithful to Jesus Christ while being persecuted, even unto death, in order to be saved?

JLB

What has that to do with (Matt 24:13 ESV)?

 

[OzSpen]

This is not conducive to the unity of the faith.
JLB

Neither is what you are doing in this thread. You are being divisive.

 

[OzSpen]

Please show the scripture that uses this phrase
“perseverance of the saints”.

JLB

JLB,

Where in the Bible does it use the word, Bible? Any interpreter of the Bible knows that a teaching in the Bible can be given a name, e.g. hypostatic union, propitiation, conditional election, etc.

Labels on doctrines are not committing unpardonable sins. They are for abbreviation so we can use these names as a base for explaining the doctrine.

This thread is in a division of theology called 'soteriology'. Where do I find that precise word in the NT?

Oz

 

[JLB]

What has that to do with (Matt 24:13 ESV)?

That’s the context of Matthew 24:13

Maybe you should read Matthew 24 about the coming of the Lord and enduring the persecution of the great tribulation that He is referring to.


JLB