T.U.L.I.P. - Perseverance of the Saints

[JLB]

Neither is what you are doing in this thread. You are being divisive.

Labeling Christians into groups based on the teachings of man is being divisive.

Pointing out this divisive practice so people will be aware of it, and cease doing it, is certainly not.


Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. For it has been declared to me concerning you, my brethren, by those of Chloe’s household, that there are contentions among you. Now I say this, that each of you says, “I am of Paul,” or “I am of Apollos,” or “I am of Cephas,” or “I am of Christ.” Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?
1 Corinthians 1:10-13


JLB

 

[JLB]

Where in the Bible does it use the word, Bible? Any interpreter of the Bible knows that a teaching in the Bible can be given a name, e.g. hypostatic union, propitiation, conditional election, etc.

Labels on doctrines are not committing unpardonable sins. They are for abbreviation so we can use these names as a base for explaining the doctrine.

This thread is in a division of theology called 'soteriology'. Where do I find that precise word in the NT?

Soteriology comes from the Greek word sōtēria, and is one of the Greek words for salvation, which is found in such verses as Acts 4:12.


Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.
Acts 4:12


Soteriology is the study of salvation, just as Theology is the study of God, coming from the Greek word Theos.


Perseverance of the saints is a man made phrase that means something specific to a specific group of people while meaning something else to the Christian.


The word persevere is found in Romans 8:25.


For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance. Romans 8:24



Maybe you could start a thread on the “P”, in TULIP, and share what this means in Reformed Theology, and what it means from Romans 8:25, and possibly how the meanings differ?



JLB

 

[JLB]

Where in the Bible does it use the word, Bible?

On the cover.


It’s a description of whats inside.


The word.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Maybe you could start a thread on the “P”, in TULIP, and share what this means in Reformed Theology, and what it means from Romans 8:25, and possibly how the meanings differ?

In fact, a discussion about what TULIP means to you OzSpen
and atpollard, with each explaining what each letter means and how it applies to us, would probably be enlightenin.


What do you think?




JLB

 

[OzSpen]

That’s the context of Matthew 24:13

Maybe you should read Matthew 24 about the coming of the Lord and enduring the persecution of the great tribulation that He is referring to.

JLB

Where are the words, 'the great tribulation', in Matt 24?

 

[OzSpen]

On the cover.


It’s a description of whats inside.


The word.


JLB

You've avoided answering my specific question: Where in the Bible does it use the word, Bible?

 

[OzSpen]

Soteriology comes from the Greek word sōtēria, and is one of the Greek words for salvation, which is found in such verses as Acts 4:12.


Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.
Acts 4:12


Soteriology is the study of salvation, just as Theology is the study of God, coming from the Greek word Theos.


Perseverance of the saints is a man made phrase that means something specific to a specific group of people while meaning something else to the Christian.


The word persevere is found in Romans 8:25.


For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance. Romans 8:24



Maybe you could start a thread on the “P”, in TULIP, and share what this means in Reformed Theology, and what it means from Romans 8:25, and possibly how the meanings differ?



JLB

JLB,

You are doing exactly what you forbid us from doing - adding to what Scripture says.

I asked about the word soteriology in the Bible and you give Acts 4:12 as an example. Here it is in Greek: καὶ οὐκ ἔστιν ἐν ἄλλῳ οὐδενὶ ἡ σωτηρία· οὐδὲ γὰρ ὄνομά ἐστιν ἕτερον ὑπὸ τὸν οὐρανὸν τὸ δεδομένον ἐν ἀνθρώποις ἐν ᾧ δεῖ σωθῆναι ἡμᾶς.

There you find he swteria = the salvation. It does not say 'soteriology'. Soteriology is an invented English word to cover the doctrines of salvation. So soteriology is a a word invented by human beings but it is legitimate as it covers a whole range of teaching relating to salvation.

You say: 'Soteriology comes from the Greek word sōtēria'. Not so. Soteriology is based on 2 Greek words: swteria (salvation) + logos (word or message).

Do you believe in the doctrines of soteriology?

So far in this thread, with your emphases of using only words in the Bible, you've introduced contradictory statements.

Oz

 

[JLB]

Where are the words, 'the great tribulation', in Matt 24?

It’s the “great tribulation” Jesus referred to in verse 21.



But he who endures to the end shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.
“Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. Matthew 24:13-21



JLB

 

[JLB]

You've avoided answering my specific question: Where in the Bible does it use the word, Bible?

It’s in the front of my Bible.

If it bothers you I can certainly just use the term “the scriptures“, which I normally do.



JLB

 

[JLB]

JLB,

You are doing exactly what you forbid us from doing - adding to what Scripture says.

I asked about the word soteriology in the Bible and you give Acts 4:12 as an example. Here it is in Greek: καὶ οὐκ ἔστιν ἐν ἄλλῳ οὐδενὶ ἡ σωτηρία· οὐδὲ γὰρ ὄνομά ἐστιν ἕτερον ὑπὸ τὸν οὐρανὸν τὸ δεδομένον ἐν ἀνθρώποις ἐν ᾧ δεῖ σωθῆναι ἡμᾶς.

There you find he swteria = the salvation. It does not say 'soteriology'. Soteriology is an invented English word to cover the doctrines of salvation. So soteriology is a a word invented by human beings but it is legitimate as it covers a whole range of teaching relating to salvation.

You say: 'Soteriology comes from the Greek word sōtēria'. Not so. Soteriology is based on 2 Greek words: swteria (salvation) + logos (word or message).

Do you believe in the doctrines of soteriology?

So far in this thread, with your emphases of using only words in the Bible, you've introduced contradictory statements.

Oz

Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.
Acts 4:12



Again Soteriology is the study of salvation, which as I said comes from the Greek word sōtēria, and is translated into English as salvation.

Salvation - sōtēria - Strongs 4991

1. deliverance, preservation, safety, salvation
   1. deliverance from the molestation of enemies
   2. in an ethical sense, that which concludes to the soul's safety or salvation
      1. of Messianic salvation
2. salvation as the present possession of all true Christians
3. future salvation, the sum of benefits and blessings which the Christians, redeemed from all earthly ills, will enjoy after the visible return of Christ from heaven in the consummated and eternal kingdom of God.

JLB

 

[JLB]

You've avoided answering my specific question: Where in the Bible does it use the word, Bible?

Bring the cloak that I left with Carpus at Troas when you come—and the books, especially the parchments. 2 Timothy 4:13


It comes from the Greek word biblion and means book.

The Bible means The Book.

Books - Strongs G975 - biblion

1. a small book, a scroll, a written document
2. a sheet on which something has been written
   1. a bill of divorcement

JLB

 

[OzSpen]

On the cover.

It’s a description of whats inside.

The word.

JLB

The word, Bible, was invented by human beings. Nowhere does it appear inside the Scriptures. Nowhere! No matter how hard you try to make it fit.

 

[OzSpen]

It’s the “great tribulation” Jesus referred to in verse 21.



But he who endures to the end shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.
“Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. Matthew 24:13-21

JLB

JLB,

The NIV translates v. 31 as: 'For then there will be great distress, unequalled from the beginning of the world until now – and never to be equalled again'.

It is the Greek,

Bring the cloak that I left with Carpus at Troas when you come—and the books, especially the parchments. 2 Timothy 4:13


It comes from the Greek word biblion and means book.

The Bible means The Book.

Books - Strongs G975 - biblion

1. a small book, a scroll, a written document
2. a sheet on which something has been written
   1. a bill of divorcement

JLB

That does not refer to the Bible - OT and NT. You are straining at a gnat to try to get Scripture to say what it does not state.

 

[OzSpen]

It’s the “great tribulation” Jesus referred to in verse 21.

But he who endures to the end shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.
“Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. Matthew 24:13-21

JLB

JLB,

Matt 24:21 in the Greek reads, ἔσται γὰρ τότε θλῖψις μεγάλη οἵα οὐ γέγονεν ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς κόσμου ἕως τοῦ νῦν οὐδ’ οὐ μὴ γένηται. (Matt 24:21 SBLNT).

θλῖψις μεγάλη = thlipsis megale = distress great. The verse us introduced by 'for', thus indicating the reason for the flight mentioned in vv. 17-20. thlipsis means distress or tribulation. Verse 21 indicates this great distress is 'unequalled from the beginning of the world until now – and never to be equalled again' (NIV). This implies that it doesn't refer to the Tribulation at the end of the age.

If you read Josephus Wars (V, 424-38 [x.2-3]) you will read about the savagery, slaughter, disease and famine (mothers eating their own children). That happened at the Fall of Jerusalem was monstrous.

Greater numbers have been slaughtered since then - 6 million under the Nazis and an estimated 20 million under Stalin.

Oz

 

[JLB]

The word, Bible, was invented by human beings. Nowhere does it appear inside the Scriptures. Nowhere! No matter how hard you try to make it fit.

I gave the scripture where the Greek word
biblion is used. From this word we get bible, which means book.

Bring the cloak that I left with Carpus at Troas when you come—and the books, especially the parchments. 2 Timothy 4:13


It comes from the Greek word biblion and means book.

The Bible means The Book.

Books - Strongs G975 - biblion

1. a small book, a scroll, a written document
2. a sheet on which something has been written
   1. a bill of divorcement

JLB

 

[JLB]

JLB,

Matt 24:21 in the Greek reads, ἔσται γὰρ τότε θλῖψις μεγάλη οἵα οὐ γέγονεν ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς κόσμου ἕως τοῦ νῦν οὐδ’ οὐ μὴ γένηται. (Matt 24:21 SBLNT).

θλῖψις μεγάλη = thlipsis megale = distress great. The verse us introduced by 'for', thus indicating the reason for the flight mentioned in vv. 17-20. thlipsis means distress or tribulation. Verse 21 indicates this great distress is 'unequalled from the beginning of the world until now – and never to be equalled again' (NIV). This implies that it doesn't refer to the Tribulation at the end of the age.

If you read Josephus Wars (V, 424-38 [x.2-3]) you will read about the savagery, slaughter, disease and famine (mothers eating their own children). That happened at the Fall of Jerusalem was monstrous.

Greater numbers have been slaughtered since then - 6 million under the Nazis and an estimated 20 million under Stalin.

Oz

The great tribulation is yet in the future.

It’s impact and toll have not yet been calculated.


JLB

 

[JLB]

JLB,

The NIV translates v. 31 as: 'For then there will be great distress, unequalled from the beginning of the world until now – and never to be equalled again'.

It is the Greek,


That does not refer to the Bible - OT and NT. You are straining at a gnat to try to get Scripture to say what it does not state.

Biblion is a Greek work that is found in scripture.

It means book.

The Bible means “The Book”.

 

[OzSpen]

The great tribulation is yet in the future.

It’s impact and toll have not yet been calculated.


JLB

Who said so? That is not written in Matt 24. It's your view, but you don't get it from an exegesis of that text.

 

[OzSpen]

Biblion is a Greek work that is found in scripture.

It means book.

The Bible means “The Book”.

 

[OzSpen]

Biblion is a Greek work that is found in scripture.

It means book.

The Bible means “The Book”.

βίβλος = biblos refers to the inner bark of the papyrus plant, a scroll, or a book. It does not specifically refer to the Bible.