[__ Science __ ] The Flood, what happened?

Barbarian said:

The crust extends over the entire Earth, averaging 50 km (164,000 ft) on land and 20 km (65615 ft). So a much, much greater mass of crust than water. And the energy required to quickly move and then slow the blocks of crust would boil the oceans, when it was released as heat. Energy isn't magically created and destroyed; it's always converted to another form of energy. So the energy required to accelerate and slow the crust would be released as frictional heat.

And the oceans would boil. Unless it happened over tens of millions of years so the head could be slowly removed by conduction.


Which is why most Bible scholars see that division as being a division into different people with different languages and cultures.

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Sorry, I guess we are both just going to keep repeating the same things to each other.

It is only theory/opinion that they would boil, they don't have definite there-then eye-witness proof.
And I've already said it may have been during the flood so there were not just "oceans" during the flood.
They have not drilled right through to the mantle etc so they oly know what surface and mining/excavation and drill cores they have done at spots around the world. They don't know for sure everything below the land and below the seas.
Even continental "drift" is only theory though there does seem good evidences for the continent having previously been one landmass.
The bible does not support any 10s of millions of years anywhere between the Fall and the present, and Genesis 1-2 seems to imply only one landmass. Nor is there indisputable proofs of millions of years in natural history and geology.
The Andes were pushed up suddenly and quickly with the lifetime of humans and civilisation. Even if one pushed humans/civilisation back intead of bringing the Andes movement forward, it still happened suddenly/quickly.
We also only know the post-flood world as we see it now and as recroded in what few records in the last 4000 or so years.
Moreover there are evidences for the Flood maybe having been during the transition between the Mesozoic/Cretaceous and Cenozoic, since there were on seasons before then and seasons are first mentioned after then, and Genesis implies axial tilt during the flood because it first mentions "summer and winter" just after the Flood.

I'm not a physicist unfortunately though I have some interest and ability in it. But my impression is that not all laws or facts or truths of physics & the universe are necessarily definitely certain and some people have some alternative interesting scenarios/theories.

I have already said the shift(s) happened either *during the Flood* or during Peleg division (question marked) or during Atlantis sinking event.
They have to provide more proof that "earth" can refer to people/languages. More proof of how animals and plants got to locations all around the world after the flood.
I do agree the the division in days of Peleg might not be continental shift, but it is not definite, and the point of the replies was only that the flood was surely global if there was only one landmass until the start of the Flood.

Revelation? says all the islands and mountains will flee or be leveled, so a reverse continental shift may be coming in future. I'm not sure it says anything about boiling seas there though some other verses speak of 1/3rd of all fish dying.

jasonc said:

you pick and choose to fit your bias .

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I'm just accepting scripture without adding anything else to it.

Mosheli said:

Sorry, I guess we are both just going to keep repeating the same things to each other.

It is only theory/opinion that they would boil, they don't have definite there-then eye-witness proof.

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It's just physics. Would you like to see some numbers for that?

Mosheli said:

Even continental "drift" is only theory though there does seem good evidences for the continent having previously been one landmass.

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No. Continental drift is a fact. It's still going on, and we can measure its velocity. Most places, a few cm. per year.

Mosheli said:

The bible does not support any 10s of millions of years anywhere between the Fall and the present,

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Doesn't take a position one way or the other.

Mosheli said:

Nor is there indisputable proofs of millions of years in natural history and geology.

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There are many ways we know that the Earth is very ancient. Would you like to see some of them?

Mosheli said:

The Andes were pushed up suddenly and quickly with the lifetime of humans and civilisation.

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Show us that. What evidence do you have for that?

Mosheli said:

I'm not a physicist unfortunately though I have some interest and ability in it. But my impression is that not all laws or facts or truths of physics & the universe are necessarily definitely certain and some people have some alternative interesting scenarios/theories.

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I'd be happy to look at the laws you think are not certain. What do you have?

Mosheli said:

They have to provide more proof that "earth" can refer to people/languages. More proof of how animals and plants got to locations all around the world after the flood.

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That's a huge problem for creationists, but not for the rest of Christians.

Mosheli said:

replies was only that the flood was surely global if there was only one landmass until the start of the Flood.

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No, I don't think so . There was a huge flood in the Middle East in the time when there were humans there, and while it flooded an entire region, it didn't flood all the surrounding land.

Barbarian said:

Doesn't say it was in Mesopotamia. And since scripture doesn't say it was worldwide, we can't logically assume it was.

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It is only some scholars theory that the Flood happened in Mesopotamia. There is no indication in the bible of the start point of Noah before the Flood. The only places mentioned before the Flood are Eden, Pishon/Havilah, Gihon/Cush, Hiddekel/"Tigris"/Asshur, "Euphrates"/unnamed-land, east of Eden, Nod/Enoch. The locations of all these lands/rivers/city are uncertain. There are theories that some match Mesopotamia, but they are not definite and there are counter evidences. Two rivers are supposedly the same as the 2 rivers of Mesopotamia but they don't have a common source or mouth and the other two rivers are not definitely located, and the Flood would have wiped out such small local rivers, and some say the 2 rivers in Mesopotamia are on/over flood strata, plus the bible seems to maybe imply the 4 rivers/lands were global sized rivers/lands. Even Woolley's Ur flood was not the whole of Mesopotamia, according to sources there are 2 or more different dates flood levels at different sites in Iraq, unless the dates are wrong. The bible definitely has many verses certainly implying that the Flood was worldwide/global not just local/regional and that only 8 humans survived. See all the verses lists in this article here https://2rbetterthan1.wordpress.com/2019/03/31/noahs-flood-local-or-global/ . Details such as the waters covering the mountains don't fit with a local/regional flood in Mesopotamia or Black Sea. Even the Ark landing in the mountains of Ararat would means the Flood must have flooded higher and wider than just Mesopotamia. There are matching versions of the Flood story in all nations around the world, so the Flood was surely worldwide, and if it was only regional then all humans must have been living in that area then (or the story was transmitted to all post-flood world).

Barbarian said:

It's just physics. Would you like to see some numbers for that?


No. Continental drift is a fact. It's still going on, and we can measure its velocity. Most places, a few cm. per year.


Doesn't take a position one way or the other.

There are many ways we know that the Earth is very ancient. Would you like to see some of them?

Show us that. What evidence do you have for that?

I'd be happy to look at the laws you think are not certain. What do you have?

That's a huge problem for creationists, but not for the rest of Christians.

No, I don't think so . There was a huge flood in the Middle East in the time when there were humans there, and while it flooded an entire region, it didn't flood all the surrounding land.

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1. I am not a uniformitarian like modern western conventional evolutionary geologists. There are numerous evidences for catastrophes at times in world history. Things are only uniformitarian for long durations between these catastrophic events. Many high cultures like the Mesoamericans had 4 world ages each ended by a catastrophe.

2. Yes you can give whatever many evidences for old earth and I will provide any answers to them I kow of. Many dating methods are unreliable despite them claiming they are "science". Some depend on the rates/speeds having always been the same uniformitarian rate/speed as now.

The Physics numbers only include certain data/info, they don't know or include all.

There is no definite evidence for the archaeological Mesopotamian flood(s) matching the biblical Flood. But I would have to do a major study to provide evidences against them being the same. I have already given a link to the biblical evidences for flood not being just a regional (Mesopotamian) flood.

I don't see how one can be a Christian and not a creationist at the same time, since being a Christian require believing in a Creator.

Evidence for the Andes being pushed up suddenly/quickly includes:
- Evidences that Andes/Peru once had a Pacific-ocean geo-climate.
- The fauna of Peru is similar to that of the Pacific.
- Calcified remains of marine plants in the Andes.
- Raised beaches with human cultural remains like nets high up in the Andes.
- "Titicaca contains known sea life"?
- Evidences that Tiahuanaco was once a great sea port. "sea ports in the Andes".
- Tiahuanaco was flooded.
- They could not have built some of the megalithic/monolithic structures in such high altitude rarified air.
- Lake Titicaca's "old water lines are slanted/tilted", and the water level was once alot higher.
- Cracked & strewn buildings & blocks at Tiahuanaco.
- "mega disaters Pumapunku"?
- Lissner (after Posnansky) says Tiahuanaco is covered in lava.
- Tiahuanaco matches Atlantis capital city. The Atlantis Account might even imply such a great cataclysm by saying "quake(s) and flood(s)".
- Evidence at Tiahuanaco of "an avalanche/flood of water, and a sudden upheaval of unknown nature".
- "Ancient penguin colonies have been found uplifted 1,000 feet above the Pacific Ocean".
- undecayed sea shells found at an altitude of 1300 feet indicate a more recent raising of the Andes than evolutionists assert. (Refs Darwin, Velikovsky.)
- The salinas or salt beds of Coipaga and Uyuni "have chemical compositions similar to those of the ocean".
- "rivers once drained into the ocean have also been uplifted such that there is a knick-point where the rivers are now down-cutting to reach the sea again".
- Mass extinction sites from Alaska/Beringia to Mexico, and Bogota to Peru/Fuego. Sea salt petrified mastodon bones/remains near Bogota.
- columns found down in the trench off the coast west of the Andes.
(Andes uplifted evidences refs: Darwin, Velikovsky, Lissner, Berlitz, etc.)

Barbarian said:

Doesn't say it was in Mesopotamia. And since scripture doesn't say it was worldwide, we can't logically assume it was.

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That's where Noah lived. Look it up. We have given scripture that shows it was world wide, but that is neither here or there as you believe as you will. Makes no difference to our salvation in Christ.

Mosheli said:

It is only some scholars theory that the Flood happened in Mesopotamia. There is no indication in the bible of the start point of Noah before the Flood. The only places mentioned before the Flood are Eden, Pishon/Havilah, Gihon/Cush, Hiddekel/"Tigris"/Asshur, "Euphrates"/unnamed-land, east of Eden, Nod/Enoch. The locations of all these lands/rivers/city are uncertain. There are theories that some match Mesopotamia, but they are not definite and there are counter evidences. Two rivers are supposedly the same as the 2 rivers of Mesopotamia but they don't have a common source or mouth and the other two rivers are not definitely located, and the Flood would have wiped out such small local rivers, and some say the 2 rivers in Mesopotamia are on/over flood strata, plus the bible seems to maybe imply the 4 rivers/lands were global sized rivers/lands. Even Woolley's Ur flood was not the whole of Mesopotamia, according to sources there are 2 or more different dates flood levels at different sites in Iraq, unless the dates are wrong. The bible definitely has many verses certainly implying that the Flood was worldwide/global not just local/regional and that only 8 humans survived. See all the verses lists in this article here https://2rbetterthan1.wordpress.com/2019/03/31/noahs-flood-local-or-global/ . Details such as the waters covering the mountains don't fit with a local/regional flood in Mesopotamia or Black Sea. Even the Ark landing in the mountains of Ararat would means the Flood must have flooded higher and wider than just Mesopotamia. There are matching versions of the Flood story in all nations around the world, so the Flood was surely worldwide, and if it was only regional then all humans must have been living in that area then (or the story was transmitted to all post-flood world).

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Seeing that Noah was the ninth generation from Adam we can determine from scripture (Genesis 5-9) where Noah approximately lived as being the area of Biblical Mesopotamia just by studying the approximal of where the Garden of Eden was located. It was by the Eastern gate of the Garden of Eden that Adam and Eve left through . One would want an ample water supply and at the east of Eden we find the four rivers that the river in the garden flowed into two of them being the Euphrates River and the Tigris. Take in account where the ark came to rest on Mount Ararat in what was then Mesopotamia which is now modern day Turkey, plus the sons of Noah and their children which make up the northern and eastern side of the Mediterranean Sea as these places were named after them then we can understand Noah lived around Mesopotamia as other land masses had no names yet.

The location where the garden of Eden was is described in Genesis 2:10-14. Eden was located somewhere between the southern part of Turkey, Lebanon, Iraq and Syria along the west side of the Euphrates River. There was a river that went out of the garden of Eden and from there it was parted into four heads. The Eastern gate of the Garden of Eden that the two Cherubim guard faces what would have been where the tower of Babel was built and where Babylon began their Empire becoming the Roman Empire that has always opposed Gods people.

The four rivers of Genesis 2:10-14
Pison in the land of Havilah
Gihon in the land of Ethiopia
Hiddekel east of Assyris
Euphrates in Turkey through Iraq and Syria


The garden of Eden basically covered from the northern mountains of Lebanon to the south of the Red Sea and a ways east of the Jordan river to the Medditaranean south to Egypt. It measured 200 x 150 square miles.

Considering Eden that includes the garden of Eden basically covered from the northern mountains of Lebanon to the south of the Red Sea and a ways east of the Jordan river to the Medditaranean south to Egypt it measured 200 x 150 square miles.

From looking at the maps that show the four rivers in Genesis 2:10-14 and where they are joined together from the river that flowed out of the garden we can only get an approximate location that the garden of Eden was somewhere around the Northern part of Lebanon near Mt Lebanon that was rich in cedar trees. In the Genesis account Northern Lebanon was actually Northern Canaan before Canaan became known as Israel.

When you study Genesis 1:1; 7:4-24 the flood was global. Genesis 7:11 actually shows us when the flood began.

for_his_glory said:

Seeing that Noah was the ninth generation from Adam we can determine from scripture (Genesis 5-9) where Noah approximately lived as being the area of Biblical Mesopotamia just by studying the approximal of where the Garden of Eden was located. It was by the Eastern gate of the Garden of Eden that Adam and Eve left through . One would want an ample water supply and at the east of Eden we find the four rivers that the river in the garden flowed into two of them being the Euphrates River and the Tigris. Take in account where the ark came to rest on Mount Ararat in what was then Mesopotamia which is now modern day Turkey, plus the sons of Noah and their children which make up the northern and eastern side of the Mediterranean Sea as these places were named after them then we can understand Noah lived around Mesopotamia as other land masses had no names yet.

The location where the garden of Eden was is described in Genesis 2:10-14. Eden was located somewhere between the southern part of Turkey, Lebanon, Iraq and Syria along the west side of the Euphrates River. There was a river that went out of the garden of Eden and from there it was parted into four heads. The Eastern gate of the Garden of Eden that the two Cherubim guard faces what would have been where the tower of Babel was built and where Babylon began their Empire becoming the Roman Empire that has always opposed Gods people.

The four rivers of Genesis 2:10-14
Pison in the land of Havilah
Gihon in the land of Ethiopia
Hiddekel east of Assyris
Euphrates in Turkey through Iraq and Syria


The garden of Eden basically covered from the northern mountains of Lebanon to the south of the Red Sea and a ways east of the Jordan river to the Medditaranean south to Egypt. It measured 200 x 150 square miles.

Considering Eden that includes the garden of Eden basically covered from the northern mountains of Lebanon to the south of the Red Sea and a ways east of the Jordan river to the Medditaranean south to Egypt it measured 200 x 150 square miles.

From looking at the maps that show the four rivers in Genesis 2:10-14 and where they are joined together from the river that flowed out of the garden we can only get an approximate location that the garden of Eden was somewhere around the Northern part of Lebanon near Mt Lebanon that was rich in cedar trees. In the Genesis account Northern Lebanon was actually Northern Canaan before Canaan became known as Israel.

When you study Genesis 1:1; 7:4-24 the flood was global. Genesis 7:11 actually shows us when the flood began.

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You are attempting to use the Bible as a science text. It is not and never has been one.

for_his_glory said:

Seeing that Noah was the ninth generation from Adam we can determine from scripture (Genesis 5-9) where Noah approximately lived as being the area of Biblical Mesopotamia just by studying the approximal of where the Garden of Eden was located. It was by the Eastern gate of the Garden of Eden that Adam and Eve left through . One would want an ample water supply and at the east of Eden we find the four rivers that the river in the garden flowed into two of them being the Euphrates River and the Tigris. Take in account where the ark came to rest on Mount Ararat in what was then Mesopotamia which is now modern day Turkey, plus the sons of Noah and their children which make up the northern and eastern side of the Mediterranean Sea as these places were named after them then we can understand Noah lived around Mesopotamia as other land masses had no names yet.

The location where the garden of Eden was is described in Genesis 2:10-14. Eden was located somewhere between the southern part of Turkey, Lebanon, Iraq and Syria along the west side of the Euphrates River. There was a river that went out of the garden of Eden and from there it was parted into four heads. The Eastern gate of the Garden of Eden that the two Cherubim guard faces what would have been where the tower of Babel was built and where Babylon began their Empire becoming the Roman Empire that has always opposed Gods people.

The four rivers of Genesis 2:10-14
Pison in the land of Havilah
Gihon in the land of Ethiopia
Hiddekel east of Assyris
Euphrates in Turkey through Iraq and Syria


The garden of Eden basically covered from the northern mountains of Lebanon to the south of the Red Sea and a ways east of the Jordan river to the Medditaranean south to Egypt. It measured 200 x 150 square miles.

Considering Eden that includes the garden of Eden basically covered from the northern mountains of Lebanon to the south of the Red Sea and a ways east of the Jordan river to the Medditaranean south to Egypt it measured 200 x 150 square miles.

From looking at the maps that show the four rivers in Genesis 2:10-14 and where they are joined together from the river that flowed out of the garden we can only get an approximate location that the garden of Eden was somewhere around the Northern part of Lebanon near Mt Lebanon that was rich in cedar trees. In the Genesis account Northern Lebanon was actually Northern Canaan before Canaan became known as Israel.

When you study Genesis 1:1; 7:4-24 the flood was global. Genesis 7:11 actually shows us when the flood began.

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Thanks for that, there are some interesting things.

I agree that the flood was global. And I tentatively roughly agree on Eden (except I don't think Lebanon's cedars were preflood). Thubron's Hills of Adonis also located Eden in Lebanon.

But I'm not very convinced though that the Ark started from Mesopotamia.

No one knows where Eden was, though it does seem most likely it may have been in the Jerusalem/Israel area as you also say. There is no indication of how far east of Eden they travelled between the Fall and the Ark, and bible says whole world was full of badness. Some suggest Mesopotamia was Nod, and Noah is unlikely to have lived there.
The 4 rivers are not definitely in Mesopotamia because only 2 rivers may match, the other 2 are not certainly found. The 2 that are assumed to match (Tigris & Euphrates) don't meet at their sources, and they didn't meet at their mouths when sea used to extend further up (nor if/when the Gulf was lower sea levels). A global flood would have majorly altered such small local rivers as the Tigris and Euphrates, plus Genesis 2 seems to imply world-size rivers dividing the whole landmass (depicted as a circle with a cross in it in Philipot's book). (My theory was that the continents split up along where the rivers were, with the rivers widening into oceans.)
Genesis 1 seems to imply only one landmass. Even in orthodox correspondences Cush is supposed to be Ethiopia which is not in Mesopotamia.
Bible says mountains of Ararat plural. Modern Mt Ararat was only called that since modern/medieval times. Ararat (Urartu/Alarodians or Aratta) is barely in Mesopotamia. Shinar means "two rivers" not four rivers.
If the Durupinar Ark site is the Ark then it apparently was not made in Mesopotamia.

However, I accept that it is possible that the Ark may have started in Mesopotamia as Noah could have been a witness in the midst of wickedness.
I previously thought Eden might be in Antarctica and that the Ark travelled from there to Turkey/Armenia.

kiwimacahau said:

You are attempting to use the Bible as a science text. It is not and never has been one.

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Of course the Bible is not a science text, but a book rich with historical facts if we would just bother to do a deeper study. Everything I present is straight out of the Bible. I can't go above what it presents with history, but many scientist even try to prove the Bible is not the infallible word of God for they know not God and even dispute His existence.

Mosheli said:

Thanks for that, there are some interesting things.

I agree that the flood was global. And I tentatively roughly agree on Eden (except I don't think Lebanon's cedars were preflood). Thubron's Hills of Adonis also located Eden in Lebanon.

But I'm not very convinced though that the Ark started from Mesopotamia.

No one knows where Eden was, though it does seem most likely it may have been in the Jerusalem/Israel area as you also say. There is no indication of how far east of Eden they travelled between the Fall and the Ark, and bible says whole world was full of badness. Some suggest Mesopotamia was Nod, and Noah is unlikely to have lived there.
The 4 rivers are not definitely in Mesopotamia because only 2 rivers may match, the other 2 are not certainly found. The 2 that are assumed to match (Tigris & Euphrates) don't meet at their sources, and they didn't meet at their mouths when sea used to extend further up (nor if/when the Gulf was lower sea levels). A global flood would have majorly altered such small local rivers as the Tigris and Euphrates, plus Genesis 2 seems to imply world-size rivers dividing the whole landmass (depicted as a circle with a cross in it in Philipot's book). (My theory was that the continents split up along where the rivers were, with the rivers widening into oceans.)
Genesis 1 seems to imply only one landmass. Even in orthodox correspondences Cush is supposed to be Ethiopia which is not in Mesopotamia.
Bible says mountains of Ararat plural. Modern Mt Ararat was only called that since modern/medieval times. Ararat (Urartu/Alarodians or Aratta) is barely in Mesopotamia. Shinar means "two rivers" not four rivers.
If the Durupinar Ark site is the Ark then it apparently was not made in Mesopotamia.

However, I accept that it is possible that the Ark may have started in Mesopotamia as Noah could have been a witness in the midst of wickedness.
I previously thought Eden might be in Antarctica and that the Ark travelled from there to Turkey/Armenia.

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Barbarian said:

Sometime ago, I showed you that the Bible is the word of God. And I asked you if you believed that. You continue of refuse to answer. For whatever reason.

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You never 'showed me the Bible is the Word of God'. I already know the Bible is the Word of God. My question is to you. Do you believe the Bible is the Word of God?

Quantrill

Barbarian said:

I'm just accepting scripture without adding anything else to it.

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No, you are denying Scripture and then try and use science and Hebrew language gymnastics to twist it to your theory.

That the flood covered the earth is no theory. It is the testimony of Scripture.

Quantrill

Quantrill said:

That the flood covered the earth is no theory. It is the testimony of Scripture.

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As you learned, scripture does not say the flood was worldwide.

for_his_glory said:

That's where Noah lived. Look it up.

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It doesn't say where he lived. That's another addition some people have made to scripture. Just as scripture does not say the flood was world wide it does not say where Noah lived.

for_his_glory said:

but that is neither here or there as you believe as you will. Makes no difference to our salvation in Christ.

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That is correct.

Barbarian said:

It doesn't say where he lived. That's another addition some people have made to scripture. Just as scripture does not say the flood was world wide it does not say where Noah lived.

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I'm not going to argue the fact as it's only when you dig a little deeper is when you find truth.

Barbarian said:

As you learned, scripture does not say the flood was worldwide.

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You live in a fantasy world. I haven't learned anything from you other than you don't believe the Bible is the Word of God.

Your lies are so much a part of you that you believe them. You believe I have learned the Bible says the flood was not world wide, yet I reject that. But you must believe your lies. You're the one believing that, not me.

Does it make you feel better to believe the lie. And, why don't you answer my question. Do you believe the Bible is the Word of God?

Quantrill

Barbarian said:

It doesn't say where he lived. That's another addition some people have made to scripture. Just as scripture does not say the flood was world wide it does not say where Noah lived.


That is correct.

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Yet you spoke in post #(13) of that land being very flat. How did you come up with that land being very flat when you now say you don't know where Noah lived.

The only one trying to add to Scripture....is you.

Quantrill

Quantrill said:

Yet you spoke in post #(13) of that land being very flat. How did you come up with that land being very flat

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[/QUOTE]
The description of the highest parts of that land covered by the flood. Obviously, there's no way to come up with the water to cover high mountain ranges.

Quantrill said:

when you now say you don't know where Noah lived.

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Since the Bible does not say where he lived we don't know. It does not say he lived in Mesopotamia.

As you learned, scripture does not say the flood was worldwide.

Quantrill said:

You live in a fantasy world.

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I'm just pointing out the obvious. It doesn't say the flood was worldwide. No point in claiming that it does.

Quantrill said:

I haven't learned anything from you other than you don't believe the Bible is the Word of God.

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If you don't think the Bible is the word of God, then one of us doesn't think the Bible is the word of God. Is that the problem for you?

Quantrill said:

Your lies are so much a part of you

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I never say anything here that I don't believe to be true. I think you know that. So why the accusation?

Quantrill said:

You believe I have learned the Bible says the flood was not world wide, yet I reject that.

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I know you don't want to accept that fact. But you've repeatedly failed to show that it does.

Quantrill said:

Do you believe the Bible is the Word of God?

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I already showed you that the Bible is the word of God. Why is that such a hard thing to accept?

Let it be God's way; accept what He actually says in scripture and it won't bother you any further.