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Union with Christ

D

dafydd

Member
Although I firmly believe in salvation by grace received through faith, it is true that this great truth is sometimes used as an excuse for diminishing the call to holiness. We must remember Fromke's teaching that there are two aspects to salvation; we are saved FROM destruction but we are also saved TO become what God intended us to be - holy people. Holiness is (just like salvation) also a gift from God and not something that depends upon our "works", but it is not simply a gift of something abstract. It is the Gift of a Person; Christ Himself living AND RULING within us through the Holy Spirit. We become increasingly holy as we let our ego-self die and the deeper Christ-self (Christ within, whom we receive at our conversion) to become the center of our life and the fount of our desires. This is what the Christian mystics called the unitive life.
Test ourselves. How do we feel toward the sins we committed before our conversion? Are we still tempted by them? Do we (in our heart of hearts) wish that we could still enjoy them? If so, our ego-self (the "old Adam" in us) remains alive and is in competition with the new man; the "Christ-self". Or do we feel repelled by the sins that we once enjoyed? Do we find exciting what once seemed boring (living in accord with God's commandments)? Do we long for complete holiness? If we do, then the old Adam is truly dying and we are experiencing that which the Christian mystics experienced. Their experience may have been more vivid, but it was essentially the same. It is the beginning of growth in holiness and true regeneration. It is spiritual union with Christ.
 
dafydd said:
Although I firmly believe in salvation by grace received through faith, it is true that this great truth is sometimes used as an excuse for diminishing the call to holiness. We must remember Fromke's teaching that there are two aspects to salvation; we are saved FROM destruction but we are also saved TO become what God intended us to be - holy people. Holiness is (just like salvation) also a gift from God and not something that depends upon our "works", but it is not simply a gift of something abstract. It is the Gift of a Person; Christ Himself living AND RULING within us through the Holy Spirit. We become increasingly holy as we let our ego-self die and the deeper Christ-self (Christ within, whom we receive at our conversion) to become the center of our life and the fount of our desires. This is what the Christian mystics called the unitive life.
Test ourselves. How do we feel toward the sins we committed before our conversion? Are we still tempted by them? Do we (in our heart of hearts) wish that we could still enjoy them? If so, our ego-self (the "old Adam" in us) remains alive and is in competition with the new man; the "Christ-self". Or do we feel repelled by the sins that we once enjoyed? Do we find exciting what once seemed boring (living in accord with God's commandments)? Do we long for complete holiness? If we do, then the old Adam is truly dying and we are experiencing that which the Christian mystics experienced. Their experience may have been more vivid, but it was essentially the same. It is the beginning of growth in holiness and true regeneration. It is spiritual union with Christ.
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My "old Adam", the old man of the flesh, was killed when I was crucified with Christ...at my baptism into His death, burial, and resurrection; to walk in newness of life. (Rom 3:3-7)
He/it has no power in my life anymore.
I am a new creature now, and the old has "passed away". (2 Cor 5:17)

What is a Christian mystic?
 
A Christian mystic is, essentially, someone for whom union with God in Christ ("not I, but Christ in me") is an experience and not simply a belief. An example from well within evangelical orthodoxy is A. W. Tozer. Others include Norman Percy Grubb and Watchman Nee.
 
dafydd said:
A Christian mystic is, essentially, someone for whom union with God in Christ ("not I, but Christ in me") is an experience and not simply a belief. An example from well within evangelical orthodoxy is A. W. Tozer. Others include Norman Percy Grubb and Watchman Nee.
Click to expand...

Christian mysticism is actually at the heart of Paul's theology, particularly with respect to his teachings on the church being the body of Christ, us being one body in Him, abiding in Him, living and having our being in Him, and being united with Him in His sufferings and in His power, authority, mind, anointing, and eventual resurrection.

The problem, however, is that the term "Christian mysticism" carries a wide birth, and can have different connotations depending upon who is using it. I like the Wiki definition of it as far as early church theology and practice was concerned:

The texts attributed to the Apostolic Fathers, the earliest post-Biblical texts we have, share several key themes, particularly the call to unity in the face of internal divisions and perceptions of persecution, the reality of the charisms, especially prophecy, visions, and Christian gnosis, which is understood as "a gift of the Holy Spirit that enables us to know Christ" through meditating on the scriptures and on the Cross of Christ. (This understanding of gnosis is not the same as that developed by the Gnostics, who focused on esoteric knowledge that is available only to a few people but that allows them to free themselves from the evil world.) These authors also discuss the notion of the "two ways", that is, the way of life and the way of death; this idea has biblical roots, being found in both the Sermon on the Mount and the Torah. The two ways are then related to the notion of purity of heart, which is developed by contrasting it against the divided or duplicitous heart and by linking it to the need for asceticism, which keeps the heart whole/pure. Purity of heart was especially important given perceptions of martyrdom, which many writers discussed in theological terms, seeing it not as an evil but as an opportunity to truly die for the sake of God—the ultimate example of ascetic practice.

I do have one question about your post, on a term you used that I find a little troublesome and would like clarification. The term "our Christ-self"; Are you expressing an empathy with New Age thought here or no? Again, Christian Mysticism can mean different things depending on who is using the term, and I do not favor anything resembling the Gnostic concepts of "the Christ" being within us. Their version of "Christianity" was actually inspired and empowered by demonic spirits, so a distinction would have to be made there. The term "our Christ-self" smacks a bit too much of New Age teaching for me to be comfortable with it.

God bless, and welcome to Christian Forums.
 
dafydd said:
A Christian mystic is, essentially, someone for whom union with God in Christ ("not I, but Christ in me") is an experience and not simply a belief. An example from well within evangelical orthodoxy is A. W. Tozer. Others include Norman Percy Grubb and Watchman Nee.
Click to expand...
I guess then, that I am a Christian mystic !
But it isn't something I will add to my business card.
I do welcome the news that other preach(ed) that we can live without sinning.
 
Hidden In Him said:
Christian mysticism is actually at the heart of Paul's theology, particularly with respect to his teachings on the church being the body of Christ, us being one body in Him, abiding in Him, living and having our being in Him, and being united with Him in His sufferings and in His power, authority, mind, anointing, and eventual resurrection.

The problem, however, is that the term "Christian mysticism" carries a wide birth, and can have different connotations depending upon who is using it. I like the Wiki definition of it as far as early church theology and practice was concerned:

The texts attributed to the Apostolic Fathers, the earliest post-Biblical texts we have, share several key themes, particularly the call to unity in the face of internal divisions and perceptions of persecution, the reality of the charisms, especially prophecy, visions, and Christian gnosis, which is understood as "a gift of the Holy Spirit that enables us to know Christ" through meditating on the scriptures and on the Cross of Christ. (This understanding of gnosis is not the same as that developed by the Gnostics, who focused on esoteric knowledge that is available only to a few people but that allows them to free themselves from the evil world.) These authors also discuss the notion of the "two ways", that is, the way of life and the way of death; this idea has biblical roots, being found in both the Sermon on the Mount and the Torah. The two ways are then related to the notion of purity of heart, which is developed by contrasting it against the divided or duplicitous heart and by linking it to the need for asceticism, which keeps the heart whole/pure. Purity of heart was especially important given perceptions of martyrdom, which many writers discussed in theological terms, seeing it not as an evil but as an opportunity to truly die for the sake of God—the ultimate example of ascetic practice.

I do have one question about your post, on a term you used that I find a little troublesome and would like clarification. The term "our Christ-self"; Are you expressing an empathy with New Age thought here or no? Again, Christian Mysticism can mean different things depending on who is using the term, and I do not favor anything resembling the Gnostic concepts of "the Christ" being within us. Their version of "Christianity" was actually inspired and empowered by demonic spirits, so a distinction would have to be made there. The term "our Christ-self" smacks a bit too much of New Age teaching for me to be comfortable with it.

God bless, and welcome to Christian Forums.
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I used that term to emphasize the fact that the presence of Christ within (through the Holy Spirit) becomes the source of our life, desires and attitudes. In a sense, the presence of Christ within "takes over" from our old ego. Perhaps it was not the best term to use, but it just seemed to fit at the time. Nothing New Age though!
 
Hopeful said:
I guess then, that I am a Christian mystic !
But it isn't something I will add to my business card.
I do welcome the news that other preach(ed) that we can live without sinning.
Click to expand...
Right on! I would go so far as to say that every truly born-again Christian is a mystic to some degree!
 
dafydd said:
I used that term to emphasize the fact that the presence of Christ within (through the Holy Spirit) becomes the source of our life, desires and attitudes. In a sense, the presence of Christ within "takes over" from our old ego. Perhaps it was not the best term to use, but it just seemed to fit at the time. Nothing New Age though!
Click to expand...

Yeah, you have to be careful with your terminology these days. :) There was somebody posting just the other day about how we need to enter into personifications of Moses, Elijah, and David, on our way to becoming God Himself:

There Is No Such Thing as A Future The Antichrist.

People would do well to read Rev. 5:13 before jumping to crazy end time conclusions: "And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that...
christianforums.net

It pays to distance oneself from such talk, lest you be associated with theology that's coming completely out of left field (see Post #46 in the same thread).
 
Put On the New Self

Col 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
Col 3:2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
Col 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
Col 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
Col 3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
Col 3:7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.
Col 3:8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
Col 3:9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
Col 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
 
dafydd said:
A Christian mystic is, essentially, someone for whom union with God in Christ ("not I, but Christ in me") is an experience and not simply a belief. An example from well within evangelical orthodoxy is A. W. Tozer. Others include Norman Percy Grubb and Watchman Nee.
Click to expand...

I would be careful in how one uses the term 'mystic'. Whilst your definition is based on Galatians 2:20, which is indeed a greater measure of obedience. In essence experiencing Christ within in a formed way - to an end of a life of holiness before men - And not simply Christ our righteousness before God (1 Corinthians 1:30) as the foundation of our walk.

There are many effects that make the same claim to a 'mystery' - including Sinless Perfection and Triplex Via.

Have you studied Watchman Nee?

Watchman-Nee-Spiritual-Meaning_large.png
 
Christian mysticism is often thought of as the practice of experiential knowledge of God as in so called hidden meanings of scripture as in Gnosticism which is wrong as the Bible does not have hidden meanings.

Christianity focuses on knowing God through the scriptures and communion with the Holy Spirit through prayer. Mysticism tends to be an individual, subjective practice whereas Biblical Christianity is both an individual relationship with God and one that is necessarily out in community as there is no such thing as solo Christian.

Mystical union with God is different from the type of intimacy with God to which Christians are called. Mysticism tends to seek out the experience and is sometimes seen as secretive or elitist. Christians are aware of and engaged in Spiritual realities, Ephesians 1:3; 6:10-19, and Biblical Christianity involves spiritual experience, but intimacy with God is intended for all Christians and is not veiled by any sort of mysterious practice.

gotquestions.org - What is Christian mysticism
 
for_his_glory said:
Christian mysticism is often thought of as the practice of experiential knowledge of God as in so called hidden meanings of scripture as in Gnosticism which is wrong as the Bible does not have hidden meanings.

Christianity focuses on knowing God through the scriptures and communion with the Holy Spirit through prayer. Mysticism tends to be an individual, subjective practice whereas Biblical Christianity is both an individual relationship with God and one that is necessarily out in community as there is no such thing as solo Christian.

Mystical union with God is different from the type of intimacy with God to which Christians are called. Mysticism tends to seek out the experience and is sometimes seen as secretive or elitist. Christians are aware of and engaged in Spiritual realities, Ephesians 1:3; 6:10-19, and Biblical Christianity involves spiritual experience, but intimacy with God is intended for all Christians and is not veiled by any sort of mysterious practice.

gotquestions.org - What is Christian mysticism
Click to expand...

My Own Definition of Gnosticism

Gnosticism has two roots, both of which form part of a strategy of Satan in these end of days. The first root is
gnosis. Gnosis is the Greek word for wisdom; from which we derive the meaning to know. The second root is asceticism, informed from a philosophical, as well as experiential discipline of the physical body as a means of expressing, independently of physiological autonomic functions, acquired knowledge. In other words, Gnosticism is a learned process, and a belief system that has its roots in acquired knowledge as a means to salvation, as well as an ascetic rejection of the body, by controlling the physiological functions of the body, especially the autonomic functions, such as breathing, heart rate, body temperature and fear. Both of these things constitute central tenets of reality for the gnostic, and together form a mystical asceticism; at the heart of which lies a belief that the body itself is inherently evil, and that knowledge of itself leads to eternal life.
 
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