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˒ĕlōhı̂m: Plural Persons, or Majesty?

do you believe that Jesus Christ is YHWH?
Interesting you would ask that now after all I have written about that relationship. (Father and Firstborn Son)
No that would be His God and Father the only true unbegotten God. Jesus is the only Begotten Son from the Father alone.
I do believe the nature found in the Son is all the fullness of that only true Living God. Col 1:19
So the Son is the image of His Father, the very imprint of the Fathers being after all it dwells in Him without limit (fullness). So He is the radiance of the glory and the very imprint of that other's being. Not that other. But one with that other and God in that context. All that the Father is.

As Jesus testified the "Fathers" works He performed show the Father is in Him and they are one not that He is the Father.

The eternal life found in the Son is the Father.
Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.
 
Interesting you would ask that now after all I have written about that relationship. (Father and Firstborn Son)
No that would be His God and Father the only true unbegotten God. Jesus is the only Begotten Son from the Father alone.
I do believe the nature found in the Son is all the fullness of that only true Living God. Col 1:19
So the Son is the image of His Father, the very imprint of the Fathers being after all it dwells in Him without limit (fullness). So He is the radiance of the glory and the very imprint of that other's being. Not that other. But one with that other and God in that context. All that the Father is.

As Jesus testified the "Fathers" works He performed show the Father is in Him and they are one not that He is the Father.

The eternal life found in the Son is the Father.
Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.

It is very clear from the Prophecy in Isaiah 40, verse 3, "The voice of one who calls out, “Prepare the Way of Yahweh in the wilderness! Make a level highway in the desert for our God", and the fulfillment of this Prophecy in the Gospels, that This Coming of Yahweh, is The Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Matthew 3:3; also Mark 1:3; Luke 3:4; John 1:23

"This is he who was spoken of through the prophet Isaiah: "A voice of one calling in the wilderness, 'Prepare the way for the Lord (Yahweh), make straight paths for Him."

In the Original reading of 1 Corinthians 10:9, when compared with Numbers 21:6, we again see that Jesus Christ is Yahweh.

"Let us not test Christ as some of them did and were destroyed by snakes" 1 Corinthians 10:9

"Yahweh sent venomous snakes among the people, and they bit the people. Many people of Israel died" Numbers 21:6

No doubt that Jesus Christ is Yahweh, as is God the Father, and God the Holy Spirit
 
It is very clear from the Prophecy in Isaiah 40, verse 3, "The voice of one who calls out, “Prepare the Way of Yahweh in the wilderness! Make a level highway in the desert for our God", and the fulfillment of this Prophecy in the Gospels, that This Coming of Yahweh, is The Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Matthew 3:3; also Mark 1:3; Luke 3:4; John 1:23

"This is he who was spoken of through the prophet Isaiah: "A voice of one calling in the wilderness, 'Prepare the way for the Lord (Yahweh), make straight paths for Him."

In the Original reading of 1 Corinthians 10:9, when compared with Numbers 21:6, we again see that Jesus Christ is Yahweh.

"Let us not test Christ as some of them did and were destroyed by snakes" 1 Corinthians 10:9

"Yahweh sent venomous snakes among the people, and they bit the people. Many people of Israel died" Numbers 21:6

No doubt that Jesus Christ is Yahweh, as is God the Father, and God the Holy Spirit
"Father into your hands I commit My spirit"

Yahweh as the Apostles and Christ Himself state is the God and Father of Christ Jesus whom GOD exalted as Lord of all.

It has already been shown GOD, (YAHWEH), has in these last days has spoken to us by His SON"
As Jesus testified, "The FATHER in HIM doing HIS work" What was the straight path John laid for Yahweh's message as spoken to us by or through His Son? John's Father gave that answer I believe in Luke. "The knowledge of salvation through the forgiveness of sins"

I have no need to convince you but this doesn't change the fact that the one on HIS throne in heaven, the God and FATHER of all including His Son is the source (From whom) all things and HE created by (through) His Son.
From whom vs through whom

I don't know why you are having difficulty believing all things came "through" Jesus which was directly testified to by John, the writer of Hebrews, and Paul. Are you sure you are Solo scripture?

If you wish to believe Jesus is a begotten Son of the Father alone who is in fact unbegotten as the creed states that's ok with me as I stated I have no need to convince you otherwise.

I agree in part
Begotten from the Father alone before all things but has no beginning point as in unbegotten.
 
The very first verse in the Holy Bible reads, “In the beginning ˒ĕlōhı̂m Created the heavens and the earth” (Genesis 1:1)

“˒ĕlōhı̂m” is not a Name of God, but more a description or identity of the Supreme Divine Being in the Old Testament. “˒ĕlōhı̂m”, is masculine in gender, and plural in number. It has most probably from the root “˒ēl”, or “˒ĕlōah”, both are also masculine, but singular.

How are we to understand the plural form “˒ĕlōhı̂m”? The Jews understand it to mean:

“The most common of the originally appellative names of God is Elohim (אלהים), plural in form though commonly construed with a singular verb or adjective. This is, most probably, to be explained as the plural of majesty or excellence, expressing high dignity or greatness” (Jewish Encyclopedia)

The Jews, it must be remembered, do not accept that the God of the Old Testament, is a “Plurality of Persons”. To them, God is just the One Person, Who is the Father.

Those who also reject that the God of the Bible is more than One Person, and anti-Trinitarian, are known as Unitarian, who, like the Jews, believe that God is just the One Person, Who is the Father.

The plural “˒ĕlōhı̂m”, as we are told here, by the Jews and Unitarians, is used to show the “Majesty”, and “Greatness”, and “Excellence”, of the God of the Old Testament. Some Hebrew grammarians call the plural “˒ĕlōhı̂m”, the “plural of Majesty”. There is no evidence in the entire Old Testament, to support this definition. It has been thought up by those, like the Jews and Unitarians, and others who reject that the God of the Bible is more than One Person. The evidence from the Old Testament, will show that “plural of Majesty”, is no more than human conjecture.

In the first place, “˒ĕlōhı̂m”, is not a unique word, that is used only for The One True God of the Old Testament. It is not the same as the Name of God, “Yehôvâh”, which is only used for The One True God of the Old Testament, and is always in the singular. Why was not the singular, “˒ēl”, or “˒ĕlōah”, not used in every instance in the Old Testament, for The One True God, as opposed to the false “˒ĕlōhı̂m”, idols, and human judges? Are we to assume, that it is only when “˒ĕlōhı̂m”, is used for “God”, that it means “plural of majesty”; but, the singular “˒ēl”, and “˒ĕlōah”, when used for “God”, does not mean, “Majesty”, or “Greatness”, or “Excellence”? We shall see, that there are clear places in the Old Testament, where the singular “˒ēl”, and “˒ĕlōah” are used, and the meaning does mean, “Majesty”, or “Greatness”, or “Excellence”.

Secondly, there are many instances in the Old Testament, where “˒ĕlōhı̂m”, is used for false “gods”. In Exodus chapter 20, when The Ten Commandments were Written by God:

“And God (˒ĕlōhı̂m) spoke all these words, saying, “I am the LORD (Yehôvâh) your God (˒ĕlōhı̂m)...“You shall have no other gods (˒ĕlōhı̂m) beside Me” (verses 1-3)

And verse 23, “You shall not make gods (˒ĕlōhı̂m) of silver to be with me, nor shall you make for yourselves gods (˒ĕlōhı̂m) of gold”

Does “˒ĕlōhı̂m” in all of these uses mean, “plural of Majesty”?

Another good example, is Psalm 82, which shows that the plural “˒ĕlōhı̂m”, cannot be used as “plural of majesty”.

Verse 1 reads: “God (˒ĕlōhı̂m) has taken His place in the divine council; in the midst of the gods (˒ĕlōhı̂m) He holds judgment”

In verse 6 it says, “I said, “You are gods (˒ĕlōhı̂m), sons of the Most High, all of you”

verse 8, “Arise, O God (˒ĕlōhı̂m), judge the earth; for you shall inherit all the nations!”

Here we have “˒ĕlōhı̂m” used twice for The One True God of the Bible; and once for false “gods”, and once for “judges”. Each time it is the same plural “˒ĕlōhı̂m”. Are we to understand that the same meaning, “plural of majesty”, is applied to the false gods, and human judges?

In other places we also have “˒ĕlōhı̂m”, used for humans who are “judges”

Exodus 21:6, “then his master must bring him to the judges (˒ĕlōhı̂m)” (KJV, NKJV, NET)

Exodus 22:8, 9, “then the owner of the house will be brought before the judges (˒ĕlōhı̂m)...come before the judges (˒ĕlōhı̂m), and the one whom the judges (˒ĕlōhı̂m) declare guilty ” (KJV, NKJV, NET)

“˒ĕlōhı̂m”, is also used for false idols, as in Genesis 31:30, 32 “And now you have gone away because you longed greatly for your father's house, but why did you steal my gods (˒ĕlōhı̂m)?...Anyone with whom you find your gods (˒ĕlōhı̂m) shall not live”. Genesis 35:2,4 “So Jacob said to his household and to all who were with him, “Put away the foreign gods (˒ĕlōhı̂m) that are among you and purify yourselves and change your garments...So they gave to Jacob all the foreign gods (˒ĕlōhı̂m) that they had”. Exodus 32:31, “So Moses returned to the LORD and said, “Alas, this people has sinned a great sin. They have made for themselves gods (˒ĕlōhı̂m) of gold”

In Exodus 7:1, God tells Moses, “And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god (˒ĕlōhı̂m) to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet”

“˒ĕlōhı̂m” is used about 2600 times in the Old Testament for The One True God. However, as we can see, it is also used for false gods, false idols, human judges, etc. If, as those who argue that we are to understand the plural form of “˒ĕlōhı̂m”, to describe God’s “Majesty”, and “Greatness”, and “Excellence”; then are we to take these same meanings, for the false gods, false idols, human judges, etc? How exactly, can these be “majestic” or “great” or “excellent”? It is absurd!

I shall give examples from the Old Testament, where both the singular forms, “˒ēl”, and “˒ĕlōah”, and used for Almighty God, to describe His “Majesty”, and “Greatness”, and “Excellence”. So, why could these words have been used in every instance in the Old Testament, for The One True God? This would have made it very clear, that GOD in the Old Testament, is just One Person, Who is the Father.

For the singular, “˒ēl”, there are examples that show it is used to decrible God’s “Majesty”, and “Greatness”, and “Excellence”:

Genesis 14:18-22, “And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the Most High (‛elyôn) God (˒ēl). And he blessed him and said, “Blessed be Abram by God ('êl) Most High (‛elyôn), Possessor of heaven and earth. And blessed be the Most High (‛elyôn) God (˒ēl)... But Abram said to the king of Sodom, “I have lifted my hand to the LORD (yehôvâh), God (˒ēl) Most High, Possessor of heaven and earth”

Deuteronomy 7:21, “You shall not be in dread of them, for the LORD (yehôvâh) your God (˒ĕlōhı̂m) is in your midst, a great and awesome God (˒ēl)”

Joshua 22:22, “The LORD (yehôvâh) God (˒ēl) of gods (˒ĕlōhı̂m), the LORD (yehôvâh) God (˒ēl) of gods (˒ĕlōhı̂m), he knoweth, and Israel he shall know; if it be in rebellion, or if in transgression against the LORD (yehôvâh), (save us not this day,)”

2 Samuel 22:33, “This God (˒ēl) is my strong refuge and has made my way blameless”

Psalm 18:2, “The LORD (yehôvâh) is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; my God (˒ēl), my strength, in whom I will trust; my buckler, and the horn of my salvation, and my high tower”

Psalm 90:2, “Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever you had formed the earth and the world, from Everlasting to Everlasting you are God (˒ēl)”

Psalm 95:3, “For the LORD (yehôvâh) is a great God (˒ēl), and a great King above all gods (˒ĕlōhı̂m)”

Jeremiah 32:18, “Thou shewest lovingkindness unto thousands, and recompensest the iniquity of the fathers into the bosom of their children after them: the Great (gâdôl), the Mighty (gibwōr) God,(˒ēl) the LORD (yehôvâh) of hosts, is His Name”

Isaiah 9:6, is a Prophecy of The Messiah, Jesus Christ. One of Names by which He will be called, is “’êl gib·bō·wr”, translated even in the New World Translation, as “Mighty God”. The same Hebrew is found in chapter 10:21; Jeremiah 32:18; Deuteronomy 10:17. It is clear that there are Two distinct Persons Who are Mighty God.
I don't feel that the Jews' doctrine is accurate as they do not accept/embrace Jesus Christ, but I do find some things in the Bible that seem to support the concept that God is one individual being.
 
I don't feel that the Jews' doctrine is accurate as they do not accept/embrace Jesus Christ, but I do find some things in the Bible that seem to support the concept that God is one individual being.

Depends what you mean by, "God is one individual being"? do you mean, "One Divine Nature", or "One Person"?
 
It is clear that there are Two distinct Persons Who are Mighty God.
This doesn't have to be a heated argument, but if God is two "distinct" (different, separate) persons, why do we have statements from the Father like:

"To whom ... will ye liken Me, or shall I be equal? saith the Holy One."
Is. 40:25

"... My glory will I not give to another, ..."
Is. 42:8

"I am the Lord thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour: ..."
Is. 43:2

Didn't Jesus do all the hard work of living a physical life in the flesh, being wrongfully accused, arrested, humiliated, beaten and murdered to save humanity?

Why then does the Father claim to be the "Savior" in so many places in the Bible?

If it's your understanding that every single thing the Father did, the Son also did, then you have crossed over into Oneness without even being aware of it - as that is the very definition of one individual.
 
This doesn't have to be a heated argument, but if God is two "distinct" (different, separate) persons, why do we have statements from the Father like:

"To whom ... will ye liken Me, or shall I be equal? saith the Holy One."
Is. 40:25
Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jhn 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
Jhn 1:3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. (ESV)
"... My glory will I not give to another, ..."
Is. 42:8
Jhn 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed. (ESV)

"I am the Lord thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour: ..."
Is. 43:2

Didn't Jesus do all the hard work of living a physical life in the flesh, being wrongfully accused, arrested, humiliated, beaten and murdered to save humanity?

Why then does the Father claim to be the "Savior" in so many places in the Bible?
For the same reason Jesus is said to be the Saviour.

Tit 1:3 and at the proper time manifested in his word through the preaching with which I have been entrusted by the command of God our Savior;
Tit 1:4 To Titus, my true child in a common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior. (ESV)

Tit 2:10 not pilfering, but showing all good faith, so that in everything they may adorn the doctrine of God our Savior.

Tit 2:13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, (ESV)

Tit 3:4 But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared,
Tit 3:5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,
Tit 3:6 whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, (ESV)

I believe the Bible teaches that God is one person.
While there are many verses that state there is only one God, there isn’t a single verse in the entire Bible which clearly or directly states that God is one person. Most, if not all, anti-Trinitarians, at least on these forums, conflate the two ideas.
 
Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jhn 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
Jhn 1:3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. (ESV)

Jhn 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed. (ESV)


For the same reason Jesus is said to be the Saviour.

Tit 1:3 and at the proper time manifested in his word through the preaching with which I have been entrusted by the command of God our Savior;
Tit 1:4 To Titus, my true child in a common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior. (ESV)

Tit 2:10 not pilfering, but showing all good faith, so that in everything they may adorn the doctrine of God our Savior.

Tit 2:13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, (ESV)

Tit 3:4 But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared,
Tit 3:5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,
Tit 3:6 whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, (ESV)


While there are many verses that state there is only one God, there isn’t a single verse in the entire Bible which clearly or directly states that God is one person. Most, if not all, anti-Trinitarians, at least on these forums, conflate the two ideas.
So the two distinct persons are both Savior?

And the Holy One of Israel is actually two persons?

At least SolaScriptura is not claiming that Jesus is not God. But I don't see how they're both God and both all the other titles given to Christ. It's like taking all the fodder that Oneness believers use to prove their position and claiming that it proves the opposite.

Well, okay then.
 
So the two distinct persons are both Savior?
Yes. Both are involved in the salvation of humans, as is the Holy Spirit. Where one person is, the other two are there.

And the Holy One of Israel is actually two persons?
No, three.

At least SolaScriptura is not claiming that Jesus is not God. But I don't see how they're both God and both all the other titles given to Christ.
They share the same substance. Hence passages like John’s prologue, which can only make sense if there are at least two persons that share the same substance that is God.

It's like taking all the fodder that Oneness believers use to prove their position and claiming that it proves the opposite.
It’s Modalism that took everything the Bible says and tried to fit it into one person, which doesn’t work.
 
Yes. Both are involved in the salvation of humans, as is the Holy Spirit. Where one person is, the other two are there.


No, three.


They share the same substance. Hence passages like John’s prologue, which can only make sense if there are at least two persons that share the same substance that is God.


It’s Modalism that took everything the Bible says and tried to fit it into one person, which doesn’t work.
I think Modalism and Oneness are slightly different beliefs, but I don't member the detail that is different between them at the moment. You do know that SolaScriptura is talking about the Father and the Son being God as opposed to the Trinity doctrine, right? Or did I misunderstand the OP?
 
I think Modalism and Oneness are slightly different beliefs, but I don't member the detail that is different between them at the moment.
Oneness is just a new form of Modalism. I call it coexistent or concurrent Modalism. At the heart of both is the belief that God is only one person. Modalism believes God appeared in consecutive modes as the Father, then the Son, and then the Holy Spirit.

I suspect that Oneness theologians recognized how that does not at all make sense of the NT revelation, particularly passages such as Jesus’s baptism, where all three persons are seen (or heard) simultaneously. So they took Modalism and just changed it to say that God manifests in three different modes at the same time, but there is no real distinction between the three persons; it’s still just one person. However, that doesn’t make sense of the full revelation given (largely) in the NT either.

You do know that SolaScriptura is talking about the Father and the Son being God as opposed to the Trinity doctrine, right? Or did I misunderstand the OP?
He is teaching the Trinity, which includes the belief that the Father and the Son are both God (along with the Holy Spirit). They are, however, distinct, coequal, coeternal persons within the one Being, the one substance, that is God.
 
This doesn't have to be a heated argument, but if God is two "distinct" (different, separate) persons, why do we have statements from the Father like:

"To whom ... will ye liken Me, or shall I be equal? saith the Holy One."
Is. 40:25

"... My glory will I not give to another, ..."
Is. 42:8

"I am the Lord thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour: ..."
Is. 43:2

Didn't Jesus do all the hard work of living a physical life in the flesh, being wrongfully accused, arrested, humiliated, beaten and murdered to save humanity?

Why then does the Father claim to be the "Savior" in so many places in the Bible?

If it's your understanding that every single thing the Father did, the Son also did, then you have crossed over into Oneness without even being aware of it - as that is the very definition of one individual.

Because the THREE Persons in the Eternal Godhead, The Father, Jesus Christ, and The Holy Spirit, are DISTINCT, but NOT separate, as they are united in The One Godhead or Divine Nature. The Three are equally YHWH. To show their DISTINCTION, we read of the Father "sending" Jesus and the Holy Spirit, both Who are said to be "from the side of" the Father.
 
The Teaching of the Trinity is not a New Testament invention, as some very wrongly conclude. It is there in the very first verse and chapter of the Book of Genesis, and right through the Old Testament.

Even in the Jewish Targum translations, there is a distinctive Person Who is called "Memra", which in the Greek is, "Logos". As The Jerusalem Targum, reads in Genesis 1: 27, “And the Word (Memra) of the Lord created man in His likeness, in the likeness of the presence of the Lord He created him, the male and his yoke-fellow He created them”. In the Targums, the “Memra of Yahweh”, is a Person, and Himself also Yahweh. Clear that the Jews themselves admit to Creation by more than One Person.
There actually is no 'teaching' of the Trinity found anywhere in the Bible.
 
I have never liked this translation, as it does not correctly define the use of the Greek preposition, δι’, here. The meaning cannot be "through", which is not taught anywhere in the Bible. Nor, "by" (KJV,etc), but must be "with", as used by Paul in Galatians 1:1. As it is clear that Jesus Christ, the Father and Holy Spirit, Three distinct equal Persons, Created the entire universe, the use "with", which is "together", best suits this.
This is just silliness. Modern renovations of older Bible terminology is absolute nonsense. We don't understand the language better today than the translators did back then. This is a baseless position.
 
I believe that the One God, Yahweh, God the Father invited the Angels to participate in the creation of man in the image and after the likeness of God and the Angels. Verse 27 then is also correct as man is created in the image of God.
Yes, that is correct and Job comments upon this fact.

Job 38:4-7

The Angels were undoubtedly present at Creation and they are the plural there, if one must translate Elohim as plural - as it is also translated in the singular.
 
This is just silliness. Modern renovations of older Bible terminology is absolute nonsense. We don't understand the language better today than the translators did back then. This is a baseless position.

Silly to you because you obviously don't understand Greek grammar
 
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