˒ĕlōhı̂m: Plural Persons, or Majesty?

[TrevorL]

Greetings again SolaScriptura,

your "beliefs" don't allow for more than One Person to be called YHWH?

I will give you two passages where at first it appears that there are "two" Yahwehs.
Genesis 19:24 (KJV): Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;

Zechariah 3:1–2 (KJV): 1 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him. 2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?

I assure you both of the above references fit my beliefs. Please also consider:
Jude 9 (KJV): Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[SolaScriptura]

Greetings again SolaScriptura,

I will give you two passages where at first it appears that there are "two" Yahwehs.
Genesis 19:24 (KJV): Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;

Zechariah 3:1–2 (KJV): 1 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him. 2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?

I assure you both of the above references fit my beliefs. Please also consider:
Jude 9 (KJV): Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

Kind regards
Trevor

there is no "first it appears". there are TWO Who are YHWH in Genesis 19:24

This is very clear from chapter 18, where One of the Three "men" who appeared to Abraham and Sarah, is YHWH! In verses 13, 14, 17, 20, 22, it says YHWH was present WITH Abraham and Sarah ON EARTH!

In fact, The tiqqun sopherim of Gen 18:22, reads: "“And YHWH remained standing before Abraham”, which was leter amended!

This reading shows that YHWH was "physically" WITH Abraham, and it was not just a "vision", or "dream"!

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again SolaScriptura,

there are TWO Who are YHWH in Genesis 19:24

The Yahweh in heaven is the One God, Yahweh, God the Father. The Angel who bears the Name Yahweh is Michael the Archangel, the same as Jude 9.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[SolaScriptura]

Greetings again SolaScriptura,

The Yahweh in heaven is the One God, Yahweh, God the Father. The Angel who bears the Name Yahweh is Michael the Archangel, the same as Jude 9.

Kind regards
Trevor

you must be a Jehovah's Witness

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again SolaScriptura,

you must be a Jehovah's Witness

No, wrong pigeon hole. I do not believe in the pre-existence of Jesus and I use the word "Yahweh", not the erroneous "Jehovah". Instead of throwing false accusations, how do you understand Zecharaih 3 and Jude 9?

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[SolaScriptura]

Greetings again SolaScriptura,

No, wrong pigeon hole. I do not believe in the pre-existence of Jesus and I use the word "Yahweh", not the erroneous "Jehovah". Instead of throwing false accusations, how do you understand Zecharaih 3 and Jude 9?

Kind regards
Trevor

Michael is a CREATED angel, and NOT Jesus Christ!

IF, as you say that Jesus Christ did not "pre-exist" (which I assume you mean before His Human Birth), then there are MANY FALSE passages in the Holy Bible!

The passage in Hebrews 1:10-12, where the Father addresses Jesus Christ as THE CREATOR, and applies Psalm 102:25-27, which is used for ELOHIM THE CREATOR, in your understanding, is WRONG!

There is NO OTHER way to understand these words, by God the Father.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again SolaScriptura,

Michael is a CREATED angel, and NOT Jesus Christ!

I fully agree and it may seem that I am avoiding everything that you have stated, but please "how do you understand Zechariah 3 and Jude 9"? I am genuinely interested and your answer may or may not help my cause. But what it represents is HOW I understand two "Yahwehs". I am not interested in getting into another full Trinity debate.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[SolaScriptura]

Greetings again SolaScriptura,

I fully agree and it may seem that I am avoiding everything that you have stated, but please "how do you understand Zechariah 3 and Jude 9"? I am genuinely interested and your answer may or may not help my cause. But what it represents is HOW I understand two "Yahwehs". I am not interested in getting into another full Trinity debate.

Kind regards
Trevor

You are not genuinely interested!

As you have already made up your mind

 

[Mr. G Lee]

Exodus 3:11–15 (KJV): 11 And Moses said unto God, Who am I, that I should go unto Pharaoh, and that I should bring forth the children of Israel out of Egypt? 12 And he said, Certainly I will be with thee; and this shall be a token unto thee, that I have sent thee: When thou hast brought forth the people out of Egypt, ye shall serve God upon this mountain. 13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them? 14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM (or I Will Be who/that I Will Be): and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM (or I Will Be) hath sent me unto you. 15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD (or Yahweh, He Who Will Be) God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.

Hi thanks for the reply .

All names have to do with attributes . God is not a man . He magnifies his living powerful word (let there be) above all his names as attributes that he himself is subject to.

Psalm 138:2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

Jehovah our mighty God has become our salvation ,a name simular the Jesus which means savior or Joshua.

The Father Jehovah working in dying mankind.

Isaiah 12:2 Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and not be afraid: for the Lord Jehovah is my strength and my song; he also is become my salvation.

I Am not . . .I will be Jehovah the savoir . No secret names as passwords.

 

[Mr. G Lee]

Yes, the person was an Angel, a Messenger sent by the One God, Yahweh, God the Father.

The messenger, the apostles how beautiful are thier feet shod with the gospel of Christ the anointing power of the Father

Angel fake word coined by those who do seek after aother spirits (legion) other than the Spirit of the Father that works in us.

The Greek angelos in English "messenger". No hidden creation. One Spirit, one manner that works in those born again

God needs no help with the unseen things of God he has no needs but satisfies all.

Matthew 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father (not angels) which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

Not hallow be the names of the "apostles" that he sends as messengers . . that some call "angels? for some reason or other. .

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again SolaScriptura and Mr G Lee,

You are not genuinely interested! As you have already made up your mind

I am interested in the subjects of "Elohim" and "Yahweh", but I am not really interested in chasing all the supposed "Trinity" verses. I offered a few comments on Zechariah 3 and Jude 9 in response to your "Yahweh sends Yahweh" thread. Either you have not considered this occasion in Zechariah 3 or come to a decisive opinion here. I agree that the vision of Zechariah 3 is a bit obscure, and not very well known, but I find it interesting. We have two "Yahwehs" again, and I believe that Jude identifies the second "Yahweh" as the Angel of Yahweh, and Names him as Michael the Archangel. Jesus is NOT Michael the Archangel as sometimes suggested by JWs.

All names have to do with attributes . God is not a man .

God has a Name "Yahweh".

I Am not . . .I will be Jehovah

I endorse "I will be" and prefer "Yahweh" rather than the erroneous rendition "Jehovah". I find the rest of your post obscure.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Mr. G Lee]

I am interested in the subjects of "Elohim" and "Yahweh", but I am not really interested in chasing all the supposed "Trinity" verses. I offered a few comments on Zechariah 3 and Jude 9 in response to your "Yahweh sends Yahweh" thread. Either you have not considered this occasion in Zechariah 3 or come to a decisive opinion here. I agree that the vision of Zechariah 3 is a bit obscure, and not very well known, but I find it interesting. We have two "Yahwehs" again, and I believe that Jude identifies the second "Yahweh" as the Angel of Yahweh, and Names him as Michael the Archangel. Jesus is NOT Michael the Archangel as sometimes suggested by JWs.

Hi thanks for the reply .Who said anything about a trinity ?

Zechariah 3:1–2 (KJV): 1 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him. And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?

I assure you both of the above references fit my beliefs. Please also consider:
Jude 9 (KJV): Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

Zechariah 3:1–2 The messenger as apostles of the lord bringing prophecy. Taking the prophecy from the Father. The Father rebukes the spirit of lies

Jude 9 The chief messenger Jesus the apostle when discussing what happened to the body of Moses the father of lies accused him of lying The father protecting the Son of man, Jesus gave him words to his messenger to rebuke.

The two would seem to be parallel parables giving us the spiritual understanding of the Potter . Teaching us that only God has the power to rebuke the spirit of error the god of this dying world.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Mr G Lee,

Zechariah 3:1–2 The messenger as apostles of the lord bringing prophecy. Taking the prophecy from the Father. The Father rebukes the spirit of lies

Jude 9 The chief messenger Jesus the apostle when discussing what happened to the body of Moses the father of lies accused him of lying The father protecting the Son of man, Jesus gave him words to his messenger to rebuke.

The two would seem to be parallel parables giving us the spiritual understanding of the Potter . Teaching us that only God has the power to rebuke the spirit of error the god of this dying world.

What is confusing with your post is that the two earlier portions in your Post are actually a copy of what I posted. You need to learn how to quote. The above portion that I quoted from the rest of the Post makes no sense to me. I assume that you have difficulty expressing ideas and words in English, but I could be wrong. One of our Engineers called M. Lee was English, not Chinese. For example what do you mean by "Jesus the apostle" in Jude 9? It says "Michael the Archangel". If I do not get a sensible answer or clarification, I will not respond to any more of your posts.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Mr. G Lee]

Greetings again Mr G Lee,

What is confusing with your post is that the two earlier portions in your Post are actually a copy of what I posted. You need to learn how to quote. The above portion that I quoted from the rest of the Post makes no sense to me. I assume that you have difficulty expressing ideas and words in English, but I could be wrong. One of our Engineers called M. Lee was English, not Chinese. For example what do you mean by "Jesus the apostle" in Jude 9? It says "Michael the Archangel". If I do not get a sensible answer or clarification, I will not respond to any more of your posts.

Kind regards
Trevor

.
Thanks for the reply. Mr G lee . Lee middle name . .. not Chinese Heinz 57 variety . German, Norwegian plus

I copied yours to show the difference.

Something I have been looking at. keeping it on the back burner on simmer.

Again it seems clear the word angel is a fake word. The true translation of the Greek word Angelos is defined as "messenger" how beautiful are the feet of the apostles.

Apostle sent messenger. . not highly venerable ones that lord it over the faith of the non-venerable pew warmers.

Obviously as a oral tradition it began in the Old testament.

The need to create the illusion of a invisible creation so they could worship after the manner of many gods, a legion, disembodied workers . Like that of patron saints making them as oral traditions of dying mankind . . into into invisible messengers.

We pray to one unseen Spirit, one manner, Our Father in heaven venerating his name . Not angels or patron saints in heaven

2 Corinthians 11:5 For I suppose I was not a whit behind the very chiefest (arch) apostles.

2 Corinthians 12:11 I am become a fool in glorying; ye have compelled me: for I ought to have been commended of you: for in nothing am I behind the very chiefest apostles, though I be nothing.

Not archangel rather than earthly messenger. God is not served by other spirits (legion) He has plenty of power to perform his own good will.

John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me

Again sent one "apostle" not angel . It only confuses the matter

 

[Randy]

Greetings again SolaScriptura,

I will give you two passages where at first it appears that there are "two" Yahwehs.
Genesis 19:24 (KJV): Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;

Zechariah 3:1–2 (KJV): 1 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him. 2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?

I assure you both of the above references fit my beliefs. Please also consider:
Jude 9 (KJV): Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

Kind regards
Trevor

Doesn't it appeal to you that Jude refers to Michael not Jesus when elsewhere in the same passage He refers to Jesus not Michael? Jesus is the "only" like to like begotten Son of the Father. One who is before all other things, Firstborn, and in whom all the fullness of the living God was pleased to dwell and through whom God made the creation. Michael is "one" of the chief princes. Though they are both sons they are not the same person. Jesus is not in the class of Angels. He has all the fullness of God as His given nature. Col 1:19 The nature of the Word is God. He is all that the Father is.
The superiority of Jesus's Sonship/name vs the angels of God. Hebrews 1
Jude
To him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy— 25 to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen

 

[Mr. G Lee]

Doesn't it appeal to you that Jude refers to Michael not Jesus when elsewhere in the same passage He refers to Jesus not Michael? Jesus is the "only" like to like begotten Son of the Father. One who is before all other things, Firstborn, and in whom all the fullness of the living God was pleased to dwell and through whom God made the creation. Michael is "one" of the chief princes. Though they are both sons they are not the same person. Jesus is not in the class of Angels. He has all the fullness of God as His given nature. Col 1:19 The nature of the Word is God. He is all that the Father is.
The superiority of Jesus's Sonship/name vs the angels of God. Hebrews 1
Jude
To him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy— 25 to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen

Jesus the Son of man is the arch apostles that some call angels sent to do the powerful will of the father.The father gave the name Michael, as a question. . Who is like God? No one. . the son of man is like man.

Flesh is flesh Spirit is spirit

2 Corinthians 11:4-6 King James Version4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him. For I suppose I was not a whit behind the very chiefest apostles.. . . .(Michael )

​

 

[Randy]

Jesus the Son of man is the arch apostles that some call angels sent to do the powerful will of the father.The father gave the name Michael, as a question. . Who is like God? No one. . the son of man is like man.

Flesh is flesh Spirit is spirit

2 Corinthians 11:4-6 King James Version4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him. For I suppose I was not a whit behind the very chiefest apostles.. . . .(Michael )

​

I consider Jesus as a Firstborn Son who was begotten, (His spirit), before all other things, one in whom all the fullness of the Living God was pleased to dwell, (gifted from the will of another not formed), and through whom God made the creation. He is all that the Father is. He is not, nor has ever been an Angel or Arch Angel. His given nature is and always will be all the fullness of the living God. Yet, He is the Fathers Son. I believe the Son who was, (His spirit), was in the body that was prepared for Him. He came down from heaven from the Fathers presence and spoke as one who was from above of the things He saw and learned from being in the Fathers presence. The only eyewitness of His Majesty.

 

[JLB]

Psalms 45:6
Your throne, O (God / elohiym / god of "The Living One", will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.

Here is what the verse really says.
Psalms 45:6
Your throne, O god of "The Living One", will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.

Yahshua is never called Yahwah.

But to the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
And:
“You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
Hebrews 1:8-10

• You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands.

• The Son laid the foundation of the earth.
• The heavens are the works of the Son’s hands.

The Son is LORD; YHWH the LORD God




JLB

 

[Randy]

Jesus the Son of man is the arch apostles that some call angels sent to do the powerful will of the father.The father gave the name Michael, as a question. . Who is like God? No one. . the son of man is like man.

Flesh is flesh Spirit is spirit

2 Corinthians 11:4-6 King James Version4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him. For I suppose I was not a whit behind the very chiefest apostles.. . . .(Michael )

​

This has nothing to do with the arch angel Michael nor Jesus but is speaking of the other Apostles that Jesus Himself also appointed.
For if someone comes and preaches another Jesus than the one we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it well enough. 5 For I think that I am not in any way inferior to these “superapostles.” 6 Even if I am untrained in speaking, I am not so in knowledge; in every way we have made this plain to you in all things.

For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
5 For I suppose I was not a whit behind the very chiefest apostles.
6 But though I be rude in speech, yet not in knowledge; but we have been throughly made manifest among you in all things.

 

[CherubRam]

But to the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
And:
“You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
Hebrews 1:8-10

• You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands.

• The Son laid the foundation of the earth.
• The heavens are the works of the Son’s hands.

The Son is LORD; YHWH the LORD God




JLB

You have a multitude of incorrect thoughts.

Proverbs 3:19
By wisdom (the Lord / Yahwah) laid the earth’s foundations, by understanding he set the heavens in place;