“As He Is”

[netchaplain]

"It's in understanding." Is the key issue. We don't get to magically understand. We have to search His mind diligently to understand His mind.

Our faith, is His mind and His ways.......and we do not grow in His grace and knowledge(our faith) if we don't diligently study His Word. It takes discipline and effort on our part to grow spiritually.<<<<<<<equal privilege for all, but not all take advantage of their assets.

I agree, and knowing Him through His Word takes precedence, and I also believe that God will not leave an immature believer in this condition which would be a show of a lack of desire for His pleasure; which would conflict with Phil 2:13. Thus it's just a matter of time, which could take more time than we might think in a believers life if we never see it while with them.

Since the primary evidence of even being in God and growing in Him is love to others, evincing this doesn't require much time to be seen because God always works this first in the believers life, and which is the main element for all spiritual growth doctrines. If love to others is not soon evident or remains absent, it could be one masquerading a false profession, which could go on for many years, until they are revealed.

In fact, the main reason for naming and siting our sin(1 john 1:9) to God is for regaining fellowship with the Spirit ....... to learn His word while in fellowship with the Spirit and apply it to our lives.

Agree again, but it's my understanding that the fellowship will only seem absent (but never the union if truly saved) from us to God, not from Him to us, because it would be due to ignorance, because sine they're His lack of fellowship with Him is not their desire, in which also takes learning, or possibly such would evince a false professor in time. If love to others is truly present it will just be a matter of time in learning towards maturity, which will be easier to see and which God ensures to all reborn.

And many believer's do not study His word while in fellowship with the Spirit.

Very true, and this to me has been on an increase during nearly 40 years of my Christian life, and many saints have died, before encountering a mature Christian growth. But I believe there will be a change (maybe soon) in this lack of growth within Christendom (this growth drought might be until the Lord returns - Rev 20:5), i.e. more believers going back to the Word for more growth.

Acts 17:11~~New American Standard Bible
Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.[/QUOTE]
Good applicable passage.

Blessings!

 

[netchaplain]

I get the feeling that spiritual growth, or the lack of it, plays no part in your theology.

I find that spiritual growth is the next most importance after rebirth; for our fellowship with God and Him using us in a greater capacity to draw the lost and strengthen the saved; and as you've mentioned, to possess more rewards in the next life which means being more used of Him in His Kingdom.

How would any unbeliever be able to grieve or quench the Holy Spirit?

You make a good point concerning the grieving and quenching, which includes those who have the Spirit because these are chastising corrections (2 Tim 3:16), and and are presented as such in their usages (Eph 4:39; 1 Thes 5:19). It could also relate to being in the sense of Neh 9:30 and Isa 63:10, which at that time none had the Spirit, only His guidance; as possessing the Spirit is permanent, again, meaning it would be just a matter of time for the correcting. Of course the "resisting" mostly, if not entirely is in reference to unbelievers, i.e. Acts 7:51.

If believers don't grow up spiritually, they will stay out of fellowship, be selfish, and continue to grieve/quench the Spirit. The result is loss of eternal reward.

Again, it's my belief that given time, God would "work" in them all to desire growth in Him!

And that continues to be the issue today.

As seen above I agree that growth in the Body is presently low, but only dormant, like a volcano that will eminently erupt, for God will ensure this to all saved, giving that their lief-duration allows.

Blessings!

 

[Angel Water]

Once I discovered the use of the terms “position” and “condition” to help explain the Christians relation to God I quickly understood more specifically the status concerning fellowship with Him in Christ. Positionally, Christians are “as He is” (1 Jhn 4:17); Conditionally, we have a sin nature (Gal 5:17) and a “new “ nature (Eph 4:24; Col 3:10), but even though the sin nature yet affects us (cannot be avoided - Pro 6:27, 28).....
I don't see the sin nature referred to in that verse.
Proverbs 6:27-28 Can a man take fire in his bosom, and his clothes not be burned? Can one go upon hot coals, and his feet not be burned?

 

[netchaplain]

Proverbs 6:27-28 Can a man take fire in his bosom, and his clothes not be burned? Can one go upon hot coals, and his feet not be burned?
I don't see the sin nature referred to in that verse.

I was using it to metaphorically refer to the fact that we cannot have the sin nature and not sin, e.g. one cannot take fire unto himself and not be burned. Thanks for your reply!

 

[Angel Water]

I was using it to metaphorically refer to the fact that we cannot have the sin nature and not sin, e.g. one cannot take fire unto himself and not be burned. Thanks for your reply!

Okie Dokie

 

[gr8grace3]

I agree, and knowing Him through His Word takes precedence, and I also believe that God will not leave an immature believer in this condition which would be a show of a lack of desire for His pleasure; which would conflict with Phil 2:13. Thus it's just a matter of time, which could take more time than we might think in a believers life if we never see it while with them.

Since the primary evidence of even being in God and growing in Him is love to others, evincing this doesn't require much time to be seen because God always works this first in the believers life, and which is the main element for all spiritual growth doctrines. If love to others is not soon evident or remains absent, it could be one masquerading a false profession, which could go on for many years, until they are revealed.


Agree again, but it's my understanding that the fellowship will only seem absent (but never the union if truly saved) from us to God, not from Him to us, because it would be due to ignorance, because sine they're His lack of fellowship with Him is not their desire, in which also takes learning, or possibly such would evince a false professor in time. If love to others is truly present it will just be a matter of time in learning towards maturity, which will be easier to see and which God ensures to all reborn.


Very true, and this to me has been on an increase during nearly 40 years of my Christian life, and many saints have died, before encountering a mature Christian growth. But I believe there will be a change (maybe soon) in this lack of growth within Christendom (this growth drought might be until the Lord returns - Rev 20:5), i.e. more believers going back to the Word for more growth.

Acts 17:11~~New American Standard Bible
Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.

Biblical Love is synonymous with being filled with The Spirit and walking in the Spirit.........It is agape love. Something a unbeliever does NOT possess. It is impersonal, unconditional love for ALL mankind.
Romans 5:8 (NASB95)
8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

And it is not a "lovey dovey", "be 'nice' to your Brother", " Always conform to error","smile and say everything nice and PC with your hands clasped" type of love.

If we are grieving or quenching the Spirit......we will NOT have biblical love. We may be nice and never upset the apple cart. But it is not biblical love.

Just one question. So I can quit bible study and stop advancing in His word......and I will do just as well as you in His doctrines at some point in time? Because God will just give it to me at some point?

 

[netchaplain]

Biblical Love is synonymous with being filled with The Spirit and walking in the Spirit.........It is agape love. Something a unbeliever does NOT possess. It is impersonal, unconditional love for ALL mankind.
Romans 5:8 (NASB95)
8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

And it is not a "lovey dovey", "be 'nice' to your Brother", " Always conform to error","smile and say everything nice and PC with your hands clasped" type of love.

If we are grieving or quenching the Spirit......we will NOT have biblical love. We may be nice and never upset the apple cart. But it is not biblical love.

Agreed again! Thanks!

Just one question. So I can quit bible study and stop advancing in His word......and I will do just as well as you in His doctrines at some point in time? Because God will just give it to me at some point?

I think I understand your point, but no, there must be continued Bible study if there is to be continued spiritual growth in Christ image. What gave the knowledge of our faith (Word) is that which perpetuates it's growth! The more the right Bible study, the more the growth, and IMO I believe Christendom within the last century or so has not been feeding on the spiritual growth truths of Scripture (they have not been taught them from their outset of rebirth) and is more than likely the cause of the drought of hunger for the Word and God's fellowship! But I also believe this will not continue because God will soon be doing much concerning it!

Blessings!

 

[gr8grace3]

I think I understand your point, but no, there must be continued Bible study if there is to be continued spiritual growth in Christ image.

And that is the point. Some believers do not continue in their study. As you say," Christendom within the last century or so has not been feeding on the spiritual growth truths of scripture."
They are positionally saved, but they neglected growing in His grace and knowledge.........progressive sanctification.

In the last century or so we don't have a bunch of people who were never really saved........We have a bunch of people who never grew up in Christ.

 

[dirtfarmer]

Agreed again! Thanks!


I think I understand your point, but no, there must be continued Bible study if there is to be continued spiritual growth in Christ image. What gave the knowledge of our faith (Word) is that which perpetuates it's growth! The more the right Bible study, the more the growth, and IMO I believe Christendom within the last century or so has not been feeding on the spiritual growth truths of Scripture (they have not been taught them from their outset of rebirth) and is more than likely the cause of the drought of hunger for the Word and God's fellowship! But I also believe this will not continue because God will soon be doing much concerning it

Blessings!

hello netchaplain, dirtfarmer here

In my understanding of is a zeal of "getting people saved" but there is no zeal of teaching those that are babes in Christ, or as I say, nourishing them until they are mature in Christ. The modern day evangelism cares nothing about "growing up" of believers: " We had 650 in sunday school and a 150 professions of faith( raise your hand and say this prayer) but don't forget that we will have the world's biggest pizza next Sunday, so make sure you invite your neighbors to come and see the biggest pizza. Nothing ever mentioned about Jesus' death burial and resurrection.

I agree there is no concern for spiritual groweth in Christ.

 

[gr8grace3]

hello netchaplain, dirtfarmer here

In my understanding of is a zeal of "getting people saved" but there is no zeal of teaching those that are babes in Christ, or as I say, nourishing them until they are mature in Christ. The modern day evangelism cares nothing about "growing up" of believers: " We had 650 in sunday school and a 150 professions of faith( raise your hand and say this prayer) but don't forget that we will have the world's biggest pizza next Sunday, so make sure you invite your neighbors to come and see the biggest pizza. Nothing ever mentioned about Jesus' death burial and resurrection.

I agree there is no concern for spiritual groweth in Christ.

Dirtfarmer...........There is a zeal for getting people saved. Evangelism should not be trying to grow up the believer. The Pastor teacher is to feed and grow up the believer.

Evangelism is a totally different gift from the gift of pastor teacher.

BUT, it is up to the believer to search out his/her right pastor/teacher. And this is what we are witnessing today.....believers finding solace in a nice, personable,music filled emotional speech.......and neglecting to find their RIGHT pastor/teacher who has the gift of TEACHING His word.

Pastor teachers are out there, and there are quiet a few...........they are just not the mainstream, famous,known, New York times best sellers that the world promotes.

If we want the truth(search it out, don't fall for what the world is telling us who is important) we WILL find it. And they will not be who the world promotes.

 

[netchaplain]

Some believers do not continue in their study.

It must be realized that since they are His, God will eventually work in them the desire to grow, which can come only through knowledge and understanding through the Word, of course, by the Spirit. He will not let them remain where they are in being immature in His Son. This is one among many of the points concerning God causing (working in) the saved to "desire" and "do" His pleasure.

But to get back to the primary subject of the OP, what we are discussing concerning maturity comes with time and teaching, but our place in Christ involves being in the same spotless position before the Father at the time of rebirth, which is permanent, eternal and cannot be affected by our growth during the walk here. Growth is for fellowship with God now and being used of Him more, though we already have eternal life with Him.

Our maturity in this life has nothing to do with our present possession of eternal salvation, and not knowing this is why many are confusing works to be related with possessing salvation. Works are growth related and has no affect on the possessing of salvation (not suspecting anyone of this), but only of manifesting it to others, and being rewarded later.

Blessings!

 

[netchaplain]

In my understanding of is a zeal of "getting people saved" but there is no zeal of teaching those that are babes in Christ, or as I say, nourishing them until they are mature in Christ.

Yes, part of the problem is that many, even in the seminaries for pastors and teachers have yet to understand much of the spiritual growth truths of the Word to relay it to others.

Growth truths like those involving the indwelling old nature in the believer, the permanence of faith and salvation (not a pun, just stressing its importance) and numerous other must-learn truths required for growth.

Appreciate your input and God bless!

 

[gr8grace3]

It must be realized that since they are His, God will eventually work in them the desire to grow, which can come only through knowledge and understanding through the Word, of course, by the Spirit.

God does not eventually put that desire in us. He instantly puts that desire in us.......It is His Holy Spirit.

The flesh/our condition will NEVER desire or 'eventually' desire to grow in Christ. The Spirit constantly/always desires His will and good.

The flesh is constantly apposed to the Spirit, and the Spirit likewise to our flesh.

Phil 2:13~~it is the Holy Spirit in us that desires the will and Good of God. Not our flesh.

Gal 5:17~~if we are living in the flesh we cannot do the things we would like to do through the Spirit.
If we are living from/filled with the Spirit we cannot do the things we would like to do from the flesh.

The flesh can Grieve or quench that desire. ANd our flesh never gets any better, it gets worse as we age.

 

[gr8grace3]

But to get back to the primary subject of the OP, what we are discussing concerning maturity comes with time and teaching, but our place in Christ involves being in the same spotless position before the Father at the time of rebirth, which is permanent, eternal and cannot be affected by our growth during the walk here. Growth is for fellowship with God now and being used of Him more, though we already have eternal life with Him.

I think that experiential/progressive sanctification truth is imperative to know to truly walk and live in our position in Christ.

Because our position in Christ is based upon what He has done for us......not what we do for Him.

NC, from what I gather from your theology.....one will/must/be 'caused' to produce fruit/works/growth. So, in the end,salvation is still based upon fruit/works/growth.

If the believer didn't produce something......they were never really saved<<<<<<<<salvation or no salvation based upon works.

 

[netchaplain]

God does not eventually put that desire in us. He instantly puts that desire in us.......It is His Holy Spirit.

The flesh/our condition will NEVER desire or 'eventually' desire to grow in Christ. The Spirit constantly/always desires His will and good.

The flesh is constantly apposed to the Spirit, and the Spirit likewise to our flesh.

Phil 2:13~~it is the Holy Spirit in us that desires the will and Good of God. Not our flesh.

Gal 5:17~~if we are living in the flesh we cannot do the things we would like to do through the Spirit.
If we are living from/filled with the Spirit we cannot do the things we would like to do from the flesh.

The flesh can Grieve or quench that desire. ANd our flesh never gets any better, it gets worse as we age.

Now it is us in the new nature that God works through via the Spirit using His Word!

 

[netchaplain]

I think that experiential/progressive sanctification truth is imperative to know to truly walk and live in our position in Christ.

Because our position in Christ is based upon what He has done for us......not what we do for Him.

NC, from what I gather from your theology.....one will/must/be 'caused' to produce fruit/works/growth. So, in the end,salvation is still based upon fruit/works/growth.

If the believer didn't produce something......they were never really saved<<<<<<<<salvation or no salvation based upon works.

Liking your post more all the time! The fruit is based on our salvation only concerning manifesting salvation, and nothing to do with obtaining and retaining faith or salvation. Works (fruit) just shows is all, and is why we only "bear" the fruit (Jhn 15:8) because it's the Vine only that produces it. If the fruit of the Spirit does not come forth, it evinces He has never been present.

 

[gr8grace3]

If the fruit of the Spirit does not come forth, it evinces He has never been present.

NC, no offense, and I like to push a bit to get to the crux of a matter.

If the fruit of the Spirit it never manifested in a believer(which is ALWAYS going to be subjective from our point of view).......It could very well mean that the believer is grieving or quenching the Spirit.Or the 'fruit' we are looking for is from our flesh and that believer is ACTUALLY living in Gods plan for their lives! And we see/judge it from a worldly/human view point! It does NOT mean that the believer does not have the Spirit.

And I will push a bit..........your theology bases/judges a person upon what they 'manifest' or their works, and judges/deems them unsaved or saved by what they manifest in their lives.<<<<<<<<salvation based/judged by their works.

His Grace is a FREE gift the moment we believe..........and it depends not on if we choose to live in the Spirit or not. Our rewards and Glorifying Christ depends upon what we 'do' for/with Him.

 

[netchaplain]

If the fruit of the Spirit is never manifested in a believer

My wording didn't necessarily refer to a believer but "if the fruit of the Spirit does not come forth." All believers have the Spirit and will eventually bear fruit of the Spirit, but not those who profess faith and are not genuine concerning it. It will eventually been seen if they are or are not reborn. The metaphor is that every vine or tree bears either good fruit or evil fruit, they cannot bear both (Mat 7:17, 18).

There will always be a time period required that will eventually reveal if one is maturing in faith or if one is falsely professing faith. If one is not a believer there will be none of this fruit to bear, and if one is a believer they will bear this fruit. "A man may say" he has faith (Jam 2:18) but if the fruit (works) is not eventually evident it's a false profession and the Spirit has not been in them yet.

And I will push a bit..........your theology bases/judges a person upon what they 'manifest' or their works, and judges/deems them unsaved or saved by what they manifest in their lives.<<<<<<<<salvation based/judged by their works.

His Grace is a FREE gift the moment we believe..........and it depends not on if we choose to live in the Spirit or not. Our rewards and Glorifying Christ depends upon what we 'do' for/with Him.

We cannot have the Spirit and not eventually walk after Him, which takes time to learn, and God ensures we will, which is the point of Phil 2:13.

 

[JohnDB]

There's a difference in being "called" and "chosen".

Because of the uniqueness and completeness of God's love once we are reconciled with God ("called") many people confuse this pure love as being "chosen" for a position of Leadership.

Where it's a common mistake fed with a touch of pride/ego this misconception often brings about some disastrous results. "Many are called but few are chosen" is what Jesus explained to a man wanting to become his disciple. He obviously had plans of becoming a big named Rabbi. Jesus didn't want him to be a leader...but just be a follower.

Adoniram Judson was called...but George Lyle was chosen. Proof is in the pudding so to speak.
Esau was "called" but Jacob was "chosen"
Ephraim was "called" but Mannaseh was "chosen"

 

[netchaplain]

There's a difference in being "called" and "chosen".

Because of the uniqueness and completeness of God's love once we are reconciled with God ("called") many people confuse this pure love as being "chosen" for a position of Leadership.

Where it's a common mistake fed with a touch of pride/ego this misconception often brings about some disastrous results. "Many are called but few are chosen" is what Jesus explained to a man wanting to become his disciple. He obviously had plans of becoming a big named Rabbi. Jesus didn't want him to be a leader...but just be a follower.

Adoniram Judson was called...but George Lyle was chosen. Proof is in the pudding so to speak.
Esau was "called" but Jacob was "chosen"
Ephraim was "called" but Mannaseh was "chosen"

Hi Brother - Appreciate your input, and the interesting comment. It's my understanding that this passage refers to that the world was called, but it's evident in most of mankind's decision to disbelieve that they are not chosen to salvation. Conversely, those who have decided to believe will manifest they are chosen.