“Full Assurance of Faith” (Hebrews 10:22)

[smaller]

And the whole thing about the parable of the seed is this:

THE SEED NEVER DIES. That SEED is The Word of God, Jesus, Alive and Active, in the SOIL.

It is the 'same soil' in every step of the parable. We all start out in Mark 4:15's condition, as noted in Eph. 2:2 for example.

and likewise, "these are they" are the same believer, going through every step of the process of bearing, which they do not do until "HIS FRUIT" arrives. But the SEED never dies.


Luke 8:11
Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

The Word does not DIE. Heb. 4:12.

 

[ezra]

What we know are the conditions for losing your salvation. You seemed to have been implying that it can never happen. It can and does happen. I'm pretty sure that's the point of contention that you have, not that we can't know the exact place for any one believer where no longer abiding in the word forfeits their salvation.

OK WHAT ARE THE CONDITIONS

You seemed to have been implying that it can never happen.

you seem to be good at knowing what my point is. i have outlined belief head and heart. yet this is ignored the debate is when and what exact conditions we are no longer saved.

 

[ezra]

Actually, here is what you asked: i am still waiting on her to show at what point we become lost again.....

I showed you from the scriptures.

If you don't want what the scriptures teach us, then what is it that you are looking for?



JLB

you have showed no scriptures that say we will be lost again

 

[JLB]

And the whole thing about the parable of the seed is this:

THE SEED NEVER DIES. That SEED is The Word of God, Jesus, Alive and Active, in the SOIL.

It is the 'same soil' in every step of the parable. We all start out in Mark 4:15's condition, as noted in Eph. 2:2 for example.

and likewise, "these are they" are the same believer, going through every step of the process of bearing, which they do not do until "HIS FRUIT" arrives. But the SEED never dies.


Luke 8:11
Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

The Word does not DIE. Heb. 4:12.

The problem is the heart, not the Seed.

• The message of the kingdom is represented allegorically as a seed.
• The heart is represented allegorically by the soil.
• The devil is represented allegorically by the birds.

The seed represents the Gospel message of the kingdom.

3 Then He spoke many things to them in parables, saying: “Behold, a sower went out to sow. 4 And as he sowed, some seed fell by the wayside; and the birds came and devoured them. Matthew 13:3-4

18 “Therefore hear the parable of the sower: 19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside. Matthew 13:18


The wicked one [as represented by the birds] steals the seed out of their heart.

The seed is no longer in their heart, and certainly does not continue through all the stages within the believers heart until it produces fruit.


This is more of your mixing together of an allegorical, non literal phrase, together with the literal words and forming a hybrid man made doctrine.

JLB

 

[ezra]

The problem is the heart,

gosh i seen some one else post that shazam

 

[smaller]

The problem is the heart, not the Seed.

There is only ONE Eternal Heart. The heart we obtain in by faith in Christ ain't our own. That heart can no more die than the Seed can die.

Our own produce really doesn't have any "long term" prospects. Only God in Christ can raise the dead, and that not by the power of any of us.

• The message of the kingdom is represented allegorically as a seed.
• The heart is represented allegorically by the soil.
• The devil is represented allegorically by the birds.

The seed represents the Gospel message of the kingdom.

Well, at least you managed to get the adversary inserted into the picture.

1 Corinthians 3:6
6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

Don't see Paul tootin' his own horn.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

OK WHAT ARE THE CONDITIONS

The condition for losing your salvation is you no longer abide in the word, nor it in you:

"24 ...let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father." (1 John 2:24 NASB)

"God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life." (1 John 5:11-12 NASB)

"9Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son." (2 John 1:9 NASB)

"1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB)

you seem to be good at knowing what my point is. i have outlined belief head and heart. yet this is ignored the debate is when and what exact conditions we are no longer saved.

No word of God in you; or no word of God remaining in you, means no Father, no Son, no eternal life, no salvation. These are the plain words of scripture. This is not what is hidden from our understanding. What is hidden is what God alone knows, and that's the moment the ex-believer is set in their rejection of the gospel word by which they were saved.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

ou teach that the soil that retains the word is saved.

Because that's what the word teaches. Retention of the word = salvation, not retaining the word = not being saved:

"24 ...let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father." (1 John 2:24 NASB)

"God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life." (1 John 5:11-12 NASB)

"9Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son." (2 John 1:9 NASB)

"1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB)

Soil #2 did not retain the word planted in it. It's impossible according to the passages above that soil #2 can be saved soil after rejecting the seed sown in it. And if it was soil that never believed, it would not have received the seed in the first place. That condition is illustrated in soil #1.

 

[ezra]

The condition for losing your salvation is you no longer abide in the word, nor it in you:

"24 ...let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father." (1 John 2:24 NASB)

"God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life." (1 John 5:11-12 NASB)

"9Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son." (2 John 1:9 NASB)

"1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB)


No word of God in you; or no word of God remaining in you, means no Father, no Son, no eternal life, no salvation. These are the plain words of scripture. This is not what is hidden from our understanding. What is hidden is what God alone knows, and that's the moment the ex-believer is set in their rejection of the gospel word by which they were saved.

ok that is the word and i agree what it says.. i never denied that but your first answer was we have no idea at what point w become allegedly lost again.. you get a pass go collect $200.00 from that. j.b will write the check.. these can be considered conditions of those who was never saved.. my whole point is man is implying where the word does not say one way or the other. thus saith the Lord. once again i do not believe in living how we want and claim /profess to be saved. man over the years has made doctrine for church groups . one group of baptist and few other denoms say you can walk away .other baptist not sure if others out side the circle believe you can,t. who is right who is right

 

[chessman]

None of the passages you mentioned teach loss of salvation. And they certainly don't mention seeds or roots.

if it was soil that never believed, it would not have received the seed in the first place. That condition is illustrated in soil #1

WRT soil #1:

Luke 8:12 Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.
​

Then why does Jesus say soil #1 had seed in their heart, if they hadn't received seed in the first place?

Again, the disciples asked Jesus what the parable meant. He told them (and us) what it meant. He never said it meant soils 2-4 were saved then de-saved. You are just making that idea up.

 

[JLB]

There is only ONE Eternal Heart. The heart we obtain in by faith in Christ ain't our own. That heart can no more die than the Seed can die.

Our own produce really doesn't have any "long term" prospects. Only God in Christ can raise the dead, and that not by the power of any of us.


Well, at least you managed to get the adversary inserted into the picture.

1 Corinthians 3:6
6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

Don't see Paul tootin' his own horn.

Once again, the seed that you claim never dies and goes on to produce fruit in everyone is nonsense.

There is no such thing as eternal heart, mentioned in the parable of the Sower.

The problem is the heart, not the Seed.

• The message of the kingdom is represented allegorically as a seed.
• The heart is represented allegorically by the soil.
• The devil is represented allegorically by the birds.

The seed represents the Gospel message of the kingdom.

3 Then He spoke many things to them in parables, saying: “Behold, a sower went out to sow. 4 And as he sowed, some seed fell by the wayside; and the birds came and devoured them. Matthew 13:3-4

18 “Therefore hear the parable of the sower: 19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside. Matthew 13:18


The wicked one [as represented by the birds] steals the seed out of their heart.

The seed is no longer in their heart, and certainly does not continue through all the stages within the believers heart until it produces fruit.


This is more of your mixing together of an allegorical, non literal phrase, together with the literal words and forming a hybrid man made doctrine.

JLB

 

[JLB]

There is only ONE Eternal Heart. The heart we obtain in by faith in Christ ain't our own. That heart can no more die than the Seed can die.

Please post the scriptures from Jesus teaching of the Sower and the seed, that mention an eternal heart, or the seed, the message of the kingdom being in a person's heart even though the birds of the air devoured it.


JLB

 

[smaller]

Once again, the seed that you claim never dies and goes on to produce fruit in everyone is nonsense.

I think Paul was pretty clear on the matter:

1 Corinthians 3:
6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

OR not as the case may be:

Romans 9:
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

There is no such thing as eternal heart, mentioned in the parable of the Sower.

Gods Word, Jesus, is The Seed. Are you going to say God in Christ has no eternal heart?

The problem is the heart, not the Seed.

Man's heart is incapable of giving anything to God. It is purposefully made wicked, above all things, which is NO small statement of fact considering the vastness of creation.

In any case, the parable, every Word of it, applies to all of us. Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4. Trying to parse out that we are only X ground can't run Jesus' gauntlet of facts of every Word being applicable.

We also know that for no uncertain fact Mark 4:15 applies to all of us in our prior to salvation condition. Ephesians 2:2 shows us the same as Mark 4:15, identically.

 

[JLB]

I think Paul was pretty clear on the matter:

1 Corinthians 3:
6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

OR not as the case may be:

Romans 9:
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Nothing here about the seed continuing to produce fruit even though the birds of the air have devoured it.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Gods Word, Jesus, is The Seed. Are you going to say God in Christ has no eternal heart?

It's the lost who need the Gospel and it's the lost that the Sower sows the seed, the message of the kingdom to.

Jesus doesn't need the seed, it's the heart of each lost person, that is represented by the four different types of soil in the in the parable.

If the birds of the air devour the seed, before a person believes, then the seed doesn't somehow remain in the peoples heart and later produce fruit.

Please cease with the nonsense.


JLB

 

[JLB]

It is purposefully made wicked, above all things,

Please show the scripture that teaches us God made man's heart wicked on purpose.


JLB

 

[smaller]

Please show the scripture that teaches us God made man's heart wicked on purpose.
JLB

Romans 11:
32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Ephesians 2:
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Mark 4:
15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

2 Corinthians 12:
7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

Seems clear enough.

 

[smaller]

It's the lost who need the Gospel and it's the lost that the Sower sows the seed, the message of the kingdom to.

The unbelievers are blinded by an adverse spirit that is not them.

Act 26:18, Romans 11:8, 2 Cor. 3:4, 2 Cor. 4:4, Eph. 2:2

God has mercy on whom He will. He alone chooses who can hear and who can not. Who can believe and who can not.

Deuteronomy 29:4
Yet the Lord hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Then why does Jesus say soil #1 had seed in their heart, if they hadn't received seed in the first place?

It didn't germinate. It never took root. The word was not retained. Jesus calls that not believing. Soil #2, on the other hand, was retained and DID take root. Jesus said it himself, soil #2 believed:

"13“Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away." (Luke 8:13 NASB bold mine)

What makes soil #2 different from the next two soils is it did not retain the word sown in it as indicated by it being uprooted from that soil. Jesus called that 'believing for a while', not 'never believed at all'. We don't have to wonder when and where salvation exists in these soils. because Jesus himself explains how the word of God that is not retained is unbelief and that the word that is retained and starts to grow is believing. Very elementary.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

the disciples asked Jesus what the parable meant. He told them (and us) what it meant. He never said it meant soils 2-4 were saved then de-saved. You are just making that idea up.

What is it about "they believe for a while" that you do not understand?

"13“Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away." (Luke 8:13 NASB bold mine, italics in original)

Well, I know why you don't understand. In the upside down world of OSAS and all it's various sects, 'believe' doesn't mean salvation, but 'doesn't believe anymore' does. That's why simple passages with clear, plain words in it are not able to be understood for what they plainly say. A convenient redefining of terms is how a dozen or so non-OSAS passages are made to not be non-OSAS passages. It's quite amazing when you consider the many places OSAS does this.