“Full Assurance of Faith” (Hebrews 10:22)

[chessman]

Some of them saying there is no resurrection is subsequent to them having received Paul's gospel of a risen savior,

Says you, not Paul! This is the jest of all this back/forth!

 

[ezra]

Don't get her going...

i am still waiting on her to show at what point we become lost again.....

 

[ezra]

23 “‘If you can’?” said Jesus. “Everything is possible for one who believes.

24 Immediately the boy’s father exclaimed, “I do believe; help me overcome my unbelief!” had he lost his salvation

 

[JLB]

I just noticed, the highlighted and underlined above:
It doesn't say that a vain gospel was preached
It says unless they would have believed in vain. In vain - to no avail.

W

These guys get desperate and start changing their wording in hopes of changing the direction of the conversation, because they realize they are wrong.

It's the ole Logical Fallacy:

Strawman:
Misrepresenting someone’s argument to make it easier
to attack.
By exaggerating, misrepresenting, or just completely fabricating someone's
argument, it's much easier to present your own position as being reasonable,
but this kind of dishonesty serves to undermine rational debate.

Example:
After Will said that we should put more money into health and education,
Warren responded by saying that he was surprised that Will hates our country
so much that he wants to leave it defenceless by cutting military spending.


JLB

 

[JLB]

23 “‘If you can’?” said Jesus. “Everything is possible for one who believes.

24 Immediately the boy’s father exclaimed, “I do believe; help me overcome my unbelief!” had he lost his salvation

What is the context?

Healing and or deliverance or salvation.

Maybe your trying to convince us, that believing is not required for a person to be saved?

Is that it?


JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

These guys get desperate and start changing their wording in hopes of changing the direction of the conversation, because they realize they are wrong.

It's the ole Logical Fallacy:

Strawman:
Misrepresenting someone’s argument to make it easier
to attack.
By exaggerating, misrepresenting, or just completely fabricating someone's
argument, it's much easier to present your own position as being reasonable,
but this kind of dishonesty serves to undermine rational debate.

Example:
After Will said that we should put more money into health and education,
Warren responded by saying that he was surprised that Will hates our country
so much that he wants to leave it defenceless by cutting military spending.


JLB

Not only is the wording changed, it's not understood. Some would like to discuss Greek grammar and meaning when the English all by itself is plain and very simple to understand when read without any pre-conditions or pre-concepts.

When the N.T. is read as a whole, complete book or thought, it's obvious that one needs to believe in Jesus' salvific work to be saved and that one must continue in that faith and produce good fruit, or works, which has become an unwelcomed word today.

Prayer for the church and the Church is needed.

Wondering

 

[ezra]

Maybe your trying to convince us, that believing is not required for a person to be saved?

its your post you tell me because what your doing is adding to

What is the context?

unbelief is unbelief .if you had read my post . you would know context. just waiting for the answer at what point we become lost again. this is not a court of law.but a discussion

 

[GodsGrace]

i am still waiting on her to show at what point we become lost again.....

I've posted this and asked for it to be explained, but to no avail.

Here it is again:

2 Peter 2:20-22

I'd appreciate an explanation.

I HAVE also explained to you at least twice HOW we could lose our salvation.
I see no point in explaining it a 3rd time. It has to do with our abandoning God, not our sinning.

W

 

[ezra]

Not only is the wording changed, it's not understood. Some would like to discuss Greek grammar and meaning when the English all by itself is plain and very simple to understand when read without any pre-conditions or pre-concepts.

When the N.T. is read as a whole, complete book or thought, it's obvious that one needs to believe in Jesus' salvific work to be saved and that one must continue in that faith and produce good fruit, or works, which has become an unwelcomed word today.

Prayer for the church and the Church is needed.

Wondering

so i guess you hold THE correct doctrine?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Ezra might believe you.

I think he has me on ignore.
I answered his questions and he acts as though you or I did not answer them for him.

 

[ezra]

I've posted this and asked for it to be explained, but to no avail.

Here it is again:

2 Peter 2:20-22

I'd appreciate an explanation.

I HAVE also explained to you at least twice HOW we could lose our salvation.
I see no point in explaining it a 3rd time. It has to do with our abandoning God, not our sinning.

W

The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.. they never was saved. you take a pig clean it up then turn it lose again first thing it will do is find the nearest mud hole and wallow in it. they return to the old nature. they was only cleaned up on the out side

 

[GodsGrace]

I think he has me on ignore.
I answered his questions and he acts as though you or I did not answer them for him.

You're not on ignore.
What you said is ditto for me too.
Time to say Buona Notte.

 

[ezra]

Faith is the ability to know something is true that you cannot in your humanness know is true (Hebrews 11:1 NASB). That is the gift of God--being able to know what you can't see is really true (not just hoping it's true, but knowing it's true), From there YOU, not God, then believes in that which God has shown you to be true. The believing you do is your response to the gift of faith that God gave you. Giving you faith is the part God does. Believing is what YOU do, albeit with loads of encouragement and help from God.

You lose your salvation when God knows that in your heart you are done with it....not struggling with it anymore...he knows you are done with it. Then he removes his gift of faith and turns you over to the rejection and trampling of the gospel you yourself have chosen.


By definition of what it means to believe, how is a person still believing in something they have walked away from?
You seem to be having a difficult time recognizing the difference between a lack of faith in daily living and relying on God's power to live right, and no longer believing in Christs sacrifice altogether. BIG difference. It is the latter that will cause you to eventually lose the salvation that God gave you.

not a bad reply see you gave your definition of when... even though its kept by the power of God . you said GOD removes do you have scripture

how is a person still believing in something they have walked away from?

i preached a homecoming this morning and i almost know with out being the judge that at least 2 or more in the room . believed every thing i said backed by scripture. but yet in their heart they was deceiving them selves.
you see problem with belief is there are 2 types head belief a way that seems right. and a heart belief romans 10:10 . many in the world have head salvation a form of Godliness but deny the power there of.. a good friend of mine once said in a funeral message many are about 13 inches from heaven.. that is roughly the distance give or take a couple inches . between the head and the heart . so i hope this clarify s your theory of how i believe. i have backed it all up using scripture. yet you keep telling me how wrong i am. but yet your right. amazing how that works

 

[GodsGrace]

The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.. they never was saved. you take a pig clean it up then turn it lose again first thing it will do is find the nearest mud hole and wallow in it. they return to the old nature. they was only cleaned up on the out side

They were never really saved. How do you get that from the 2 Peter 2:20-22?
AFTER they have escaped the defilements of the world (NASB)
What is defilement? The slum of the world, the sin of the world, all the evil the world holds, THEY ESCAPED from it. HOW do you escape from it? By following God. The N.T. was written to people who wanted to follow God.

By the KNOWLEDGE of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ (NASB)
What does knowledge mean?
Discernment
Recognition
Knowledge of a particular point
perception
intuition

Strong's N:T: no. 1922 says of 2 Peter 2.20:

the true knowledge of Christ's nature, dignity, benefits: Ephesians 4:13; 2 Peter 1:8; 2 Peter 2:20;

In the N.T., the person who had knowledge as described in 2 Peter, was saved.

They are AGAIN entangled in them and are OVERCOME, the LAST STATE has become worse for them than THE FIRST.
(NASB)

They are again entangled means they have gone back to the world after they had originally left it when saved by the knowledge of Jesus salvific work. They are overcome (won over by sin) and are worse off than when THEY FIRST STARTED OUT (before they were saved).

They were lost
They became saved
They were lost again
And this last state was worse than the first.

W

 

[GodsGrace]

so i guess you hold THE correct doctrine?

Yes. All the early church fathers from the Apostolic age, people who knew the apostles, believed salvation could be lost.

You may want to read:
http://earlychurch.com/eternal-security.php

http://www.covenantoflove.net/refor...-theology/church-fathers-on-eternal-security/

We could write back and forth forever but I believe the early church fathers, who were the closest to the time of Jesus and the Apostles, knew best what Jesus and the Apostles taught.

it was not until the 1500's that the concept of eternal security was defined by Calvin. This concept did not exist in the church until he brought it forward. it is nonsense to believe that this one man was correct and all the other theologians through time were wrong - even the ones closest to the apostles.

I do hope you read the above and listen to the tape. It's just too much to get into.

W

 

[chessman]

How much fruitfulness does it take to be saved soil #4?

You're exampling my point. Jesus doesn't say soil #4 had to bear any amount of fruit to be saved. Why? Because the major teaching of Jesus' parable is not about salvation. It's about fruit production.

But the answer to your question is zero fruitfulness is required for salvation (to gain it or keep it). Just look at the thief on the cross who went to Paridise with Jesus. He produced zero fruit, yet was saved.

Where Jesus' interpretation of the parable does teach on salvation, it is entirely consistent with OSAS and the assurance of salvation too. Had soil #1 believed, they'd been saved. That soil did not believe and thusly were not saved. Pretty simple really. As far as soils 2-4 salvation status, Jesus doesn't interpret them. You do.

 

[JLB]

unbelief is unbelief .if you had read my post . you would know context. just waiting for the answer at what point we become lost again. this is not a court of law.but a discussion

Unbelief is unbelief.

Unbelief for what?

That was my question.

If a person who needs to be saved has unbelief, then the won't be saved.

If a Christian who is saved by faith has unbelief for healing, they are still saved, but not healed.

You trying to insinuate that the man who had unbelief for healing, is the same as a man who had unbelief for salvation.

Is it your point, to try and prove that a person doesn't need to believe in order to be saved?

Or, were you just trying to mix together to different situations for believing, healing and salvation, in hopes that we don't understand the difference?


JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Now you confuse me.
How many different types of faith are there in the Bible?

There ARE different types of faith spoken of in the bible.

The most noted one is Hebrews 11:1
It tells us what faith is.

James speaks to different types of faith In
James 2:17-22

The first type of faith is DEAD FAITH which involves the intellect:

I. DEAD FAITH (14-17)

A. THIS KIND OF FAITH...
1. Substitutes words for deeds (consider James' example)
a. People with this kind of faith:
1) Know the correct vocabulary for prayer and sound doctrine
2) Can even quote the right verses from the Bible
b. But their "walk" does not measure up to their "talk"!
2. Is only an INTELLECTUAL faith
a. In one's mind, he or she knows the doctrine of salvation
b. But they have never really submitted themselves to God and
trusted in Jesus for salvation
c. They know the right "words", but they do not back up their
words with their "works"!

B. CAN THIS KIND OF FAITH SAVE?
1. NO! Three times in this passage, James emphasizes that "faith
without works is dead" - James 2:17, 20, 26
2. Any declaration of faith that does not result in a changed life
and good works is a false declaration: A DEAD FAITH!
3. Dead faith is counterfeit faith and lulls the person into a
false confidence of eternal life

C. DO WE HAVE THIS KIND OF FAITH?
1. We do, if our WALK does not measure up to our TALK!
2. We do, if our WORKS do not measure up to our WORDS!

[We need to beware of mere intellectual faith. As Warren Wiersbe said,

"No man can come to Christ by faith and remain the same, anymore than
he came into contact with a 220-volt wire and remain the same."
(compare this to 1 John 5:12)

The second type of faith is demonic faith which involves intellect and emotions:

II DEMONIC FAITH (18,19)

A. PERHAPS TO SHOCK ANY COMPLACENT READERS, JAMES REMINDS US THAT
EVEN "DEMONS" HAVE A KIND OF FAITH!
1. They believe in God (no atheists or agnostics here!)
2. They even believe in the deity of Christ - cf.Mark 3:11-12
3. They also believe in the existence of a place of condemnation
- cf. Luke 8:31
4. And they believe Jesus will be the Judge! - Mathew 8:28-29

B. WHAT KIND OF FAITH DO "DEMONS" HAVE?
1. We saw that the man with "dead faith" was "touched only in his
intellect"
2. The demons are "touched also in their emotions" (note that they
"believe and tremble")
3. This is one step above a "dead faith" - it involves both
INTELLECT and EMOTIONS

C. CAN THIS KIND OF FAITH SAVE?
1. NO! A person can be enlightened in his mind and even stirred
in his heart and still be lost forever!
2. True saving faith involves something more, something that can
be seen and recognized: a changed life! (cf. James 2:18)
3. Being a Christian involves trusting Christ and living for
Christ!
a. You first RECEIVE the life...
b. Then you REVEAL the life!

D. DO WE HAVE THIS KIND OF FAITH?
1. We do, if we just BELIEVE the right things and FEEL the right
things
2. We do, if our service to God does not go beyond...
a. Intellectually adhering to the right doctrines
b. Emotional experiences while attending services

[Thus, James has introduced us to two kinds of faith that can NEVER
save: DEAD faith (involving the intellect alone), and DEMONIC faith
(involving the intellect and the emotions, but stopping there).

The third type of faith is DYNAMIC FAITH or SAVING FAITH- it involves the intellect, emotions and will:

III. DYNAMIC FAITH (20-26)

A. WHAT KIND OF FAITH IS THIS?
1. We know from other passages that such faith is based upon the
Word of God - cf. Ro 10:17
2. Dynamic faith involves the WHOLE MAN
a. DEAD faith touches only the intellect
b. DEMONIC faith involves both the mind and the emotions
c. DYNAMIC faith involves the intellect, the emotions, AND the
WILL!
1) The MIND understands the truth
2) The HEART desires and rejoices in the truth
3) The WILL acts upon the truth
3. True, saving faith, then, LEADS TO ACTION
a. It is not intellectual contemplation
b. It is not emotionalism
c. It is that which leads to obedience in doing good works

B. TO ILLUSTRATE, JAMES REFERS TO TWO WELL-KNOW PERSONS IN THE
BIBLE: ABRAHAM & RAHAB
1. You could not find two more different persons!
a. Abraham was the father of the Jews; Rahab was a Gentile!
b. Abraham was a godly man; Rahab had been a sinful woman, a
harlot!
c. Abraham was the friend of God; Rahab had belonged to the
enemies of God!
2. What did they have in common? Both exercised saving faith in
God!
a. Abraham demonstrated his saving faith by his works - 20-24
b. Rahab demonstrated her saving faith by her works - 25-26
3. We learn from this passage that:
a. Faith without works is a DEAD faith - 20,26
b. That "faith only" (the only time this phrase is found in the
Scriptures) cannot justify one - 24
c. That PERFECT faith necessitates works - 22


The above can be found at:
http://www.ccel.org/contrib/exec_outlines/ja/ja_10.htm


W

 

[ezra]

Unbelief is unbelief.

Unbelief for what?

That was my question.

If a person who needs to be saved has unbelief, then the won't be saved.

If a Christian who is saved by faith has unbelief for healing, they are still saved, but not healed.

You trying to insinuate that the man who had unbelief for healing, is the same as a man who had unbelief for salvation.

Is it your point, to try and prove that a person doesn't need to believe in order to be saved?

Or, were you just trying to mix together to different situations for believing, healing and salvation, in hopes that we don't understand the difference?


JLB

you seem to be the great theologian. you explain it i gave my point once again this is not a court of law. and your not a attorney of law.. i can honestly say this is better than the calvinist forum i post in

 

[JLB]

They are again entangled means they have gone back to the world after they had originally left it when saved by the knowledge of Jesus salvific work. They are overcome (won over by sin) and are worse off than when THEY FIRST STARTED OUT (before they were saved).

They were lost
They became saved
They were lost again
And this last state was worse than the first.

Couldn't be anymore clear.


JLB