“Full Assurance of Faith” (Hebrews 10:22)

[JLB]

The unbelievers are blinded by an adverse spirit that is not them.

Act 26:18, Romans 11:8, 2 Cor. 3:4, 2 Cor. 4:4, Eph. 2:2

God has mercy on whom He will. He alone chooses who can hear and who can not. Who can believe and who can not.

Deuteronomy 29:4
Yet the Lord hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.

This does not address the fact that the seed DOES NOT produce fruit in the person that has the seed snatch from their heart... as you claim.

11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:11-12

... the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts.

The word is no longer in their heart.


JLB

 

[JLB]

What is it about "they believe for a while" that you do not understand?

"13“Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away." (Luke 8:13 NASB bold mine, italics in original)

Well, I know why you don't understand. In the upside down world of OSAS and all it's various sects, 'believe' doesn't mean salvation, but 'doesn't believe anymore' does. That's why simple passages with clear, plain words in it are not able to be understood for what they plainly say. A convenient redefining of terms is how a dozen or so non-OSAS passages are made to not be non-OSAS passages. It's quite amazing when you consider the many places OSAS does this.

Redefining biblical words is the earmark of those who deceive.

John said it this way -

We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error. 1 John 4:6



JLB

 

[smaller]

This does not address the fact that the seed DOES NOT produce fruit in the person that has the seed snatch from their heart... as you claim.

What is really going on within unbelievers JLB, according to the scriptures? It's quite easy to see that there is a spiritually adverse agent, Satan, the god of this world, the prince of the power of the air, the spirit of disobedience upon such minds. It's quite easy to see in Mark 4:15, Acts 26:18, Romans 11:8, 2 Cor. 3:14, 2 Cor. 4:4, Eph. 2:2 and many many other citings.

This shows us that there are "other things" going on where The Word is sown that have to do with another agency altogether that is NOT MAN. Satan is moved to resist the Word, exactly as God said it would be in Gen. 3:15.

This Divine dynamic tension is an integral part of both the scriptures and life on earth. It's not all about "just and only mankind."

We all still do have "issues" with the flesh and the spirit:

2 Corinthians 7:1
Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Jesus WILL come through for us. But this does not speak to the "whole" equations of what is really going on on earth. There is also judgment against these parties that is also going on:

Ephesians 6:
11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

This is not a complex thing to understand. When we turn our sights where Divine Judgment belongs, we might see more than just "man" or just "believers" involved.

God in Christ does save believers, unquestionably. And simultaneously "condemns" the adversaries that "we" wrestle with. That wrestling transpires in our own flesh, because it is there that these things do exist:

2 Corinthians 7:1
Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

The cleansing is only to be found in seeing what/who the problem is, and DIVIDE ourselves from that working that is not us (no more "I" that DO IT), Romans 7:17-21. But DO IT it does.

Solomon spoke well when he commanded the child to be cut in half.

So did Jesus when He said He came to DIVIDE:

Luke 12:
51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:

Matthew 10:34
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

It is not possible to make our spiritual adversaries compliant JLB, and that's all there is to it. One will be saved. The other, lost.

 

[GodsGrace]

What is it about "they believe for a while" that you do not understand?

"13“Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away." (Luke 8:13 NASB bold mine, italics in original)

Well, I know why you don't understand. In the upside down world of OSAS and all it's various sects, 'believe' doesn't mean salvation, but 'doesn't believe anymore' does. That's why simple passages with clear, plain words in it are not able to be understood for what they plainly say. A convenient redefining of terms is how a dozen or so non-OSAS passages are made to not be non-OSAS passages. It's quite amazing when you consider the many places OSAS does this.

'believe' doesn't mean salvation, but 'doesn't believe anymore' does.

Very good Jethro. Your last paragraph above is excellent.

This is what I mean when I say that scripture has to be twisted to arrive at the conclusion of OSAS.

I also find it disturbing how they believe those on this side feel they have to "work" to keep their salvation.
As if work were a nasty word. This is all Jesus spoke about! About being different from others,
Mathew 5:2-10

He spoke about DOING, praying, fasting, visiting sick, visiting prisoners, being charitable, feeding, clothing.
James said faith without works is dead.
James 2:17

It's sad to think that a Christian would consider "works" to be something to be disputed and argued over instead of something Jesus commanded and expects.

W
P.S. OzSpen did a good series on faith and works on his web page. It's the James series on his page:
spencer.gear.dyndns.org just write in the search tab, faith and works. It's very thorough.

 

[WIP]

It's sad to think that a Christian would consider "works" to be something to be disputed and argued over instead of something Jesus commanded and expects.

As Christians it seems we should be happy, elated, ecstatic, overjoyed, delighted, and embracing good works, not arguing against them and making good works the enemy.

 

[GodsGrace]

As Christians it seems we should be happy, elated, ecstatic, overjoyed, delighted, and embracing good works, not arguing against them and making good works the enemy.

AMEN.
Well said.

 

[smaller]

As Christians it seems we should be happy, elated, ecstatic, overjoyed, delighted, and embracing good works, not arguing against them and making good works the enemy.

The difficulty is when we turn those into "legalism" with penalties, eternal, attached. Then good works have been turned into legalism and we should know that legalism does have issues.

Acts 15:24
Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

Many sects have "transferred" legalism into other self transcribed laws, turning matters of the Spirit, the fruit of which there is NO LAW against, and turned them into LAW with permanent penalty for violations. And the mannerisms they apply to both "do" whatever and "remedy" violations so as to avoid the penalties are nothing more than the same burdens of law hung around peoples necks that they couldn't do "to Perfection" as the "law requires" in the first place.

Galatians 5:
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

When people turn these matters into laws of performances, with penalties, they err substantially and have made another, their own Old Testament out of the New Testament.

 

[JLB]

What is really going on within unbelievers JLB, according to the scriptures?

Those who have the seed, the Gospel message, snatched away out of their hearts, nothing is going on, as there is no change, since the seed in no longer there.

19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside. Matthew 13:19



JLB

 

[smaller]

Those who have the seed, the Gospel message, snatched away out of their hearts, nothing is going on, as there is no change, since the seed in no longer there.
19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside. Matthew 13:19

JLB

I don't know about anyone else, but when I witness Christ to anyone I do understand that there is an adversary involved, fighting against that person hearing. It is always my intent to witness Gods Love, Forgiveness, Grace, Mercy and the promise of eternal life in Christ to only ONE of the parties, the person.

And to resist the other, openly, if necessary. Mark 4:15.

I also consider that IF God in Christ allows that person to see His Salvation, it was by Gods Direct Intervention, and that they are in fact SAVED by Gods Intervention, between the 'captive' and the 'captor,' Eph. 2:2, the Holy Spirit present in them to make their declaration:

1 Corinthians 12:3
Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

 

[chessman]

It didn't germinate. It never took root. The word was not retained. Jesus calls that not believing.

It never bore fruit. Which is the point of the parable. But technically, once again, you are wrong. Jesus says soil#1 did not believe (past tense) AND was not saved. The only time salvation is interpreted for the disciples (one way or the other) was for soil 1, which never believed.

Soil that retains the word is saved soil.

This was what I was responding to.
Which is it? Retaining the word (the seed) or germinating a root or bearing fruit that Jesus says is "saved soil". Actually, never mind because we both know the answer. He never says that any of these three metaphors represents "saved soil". That's your interpretation, not Jesus'.

Soil #2, on the other hand, was retained and DID take root. Jesus said it himself, soil #2 believed:

True. And those plants died because of lack of moisture and never produced any fruit. What He didn't say was that soil became un-saved. That's just your interpretation added to Jesus'.

"13“Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away." (Luke 8:13 NASB bold mine)

What makes soil #2 different from the next two soils is it did not retain the word sown in it as indicated by it being uprooted from that soil.

Soil 2 wasn't "uprooted", it died from lack of moisture.

What is it about "they believe for a while" that you do not understand?

Nothing. What I don't understand is how you re-interpret this and/or "fall away" into de-salvation. If Jesus had meant de-salvation, He could have told the disciples that. He didn't. It's like someone once said:

Redefining biblical words is the earmark of those who deceive.

Quite true, really.

 

[JLB]

I don't know about anyone else, but when I witness Christ to anyone I do understand that there is an adversary involved, fighting against that person hearing. It is always my intent to witness Gods Love, Forgiveness, Grace, Mercy and the promise of eternal life in Christ to only ONE of the parties, the person.

And to resist the other, openly, if necessary. Mark 4:15.

I also consider that IF God in Christ allows that person to see His Salvation, it was by Gods Direct Intervention, and that they are in fact SAVED by Gods Intervention, between the 'captive' and the 'captor,' Eph. 2:2, the Holy Spirit present in them to make their declaration:

1 Corinthians 12:3
Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

None of which has anything to do with the seed being snatched from their heart.

The seed is not in their heart, and therefore can not produce fruit, which is in direct contradiction to your claim that the seed never dies but will continue through all stages in the persons heart which is an "eternal heart".


19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside. Matthew 13:19



JLB

 

[smaller]

None of which has anything to do with the seed being snatched from their heart.

Start with the first discourse of the parable, which is ONLY understood by disciples. Understanding was purposefully NOT given to the blinded masses:

Mark 4:
15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Read Paul's disclosure where WE ourselves were prior to belief:

Ephesians 2:
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Jesus didn't bother telling the masses. They could not believe it anyway.

But disciples "submit" to His Facts. And we, ALL, who believe now were in the shoes of Mark 4:15 prior to belief exactly as Acts 26:18, Eph. 2:2, 2 Cor. 4:4 show, all PERFECTLY identically.

When this is established, a believer may be led to understand the balance of the parable. But if they reject Gods Words in this matter and the words of the Apostles, it serves to show they do not understand.

Jesus said "man" shall live by every Word of God. Therefore His "disciples" in truth reject not a single Word of God, applicable to themselves. Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4, inclusive of every line, jot and tittle of the parable.

 

[JLB]

Start with the first discourse of the parable, which is ONLY understood by disciples. Understanding was purposefully NOT given to the blinded masses:

Mark 4:
15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Read Paul's disclosure where WE ourselves were prior to belief:

Ephesians 2:
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Jesus didn't bother telling the masses. They could not believe it anyway.

But disciples "submit" to His Facts. And we, ALL, who believe now were in the shoes of Mark 4:15 prior to belief exactly as Acts 26:18, Eph. 2:2, 2 Cor. 4:4 show, all PERFECTLY identically.

When this is established, a believer may be led to understand the balance of the parable. But if they reject Gods Words in this matter and the words of the Apostles, it serves to show they do not understand.

Jesus said "man" shall live by every Word of God. Therefore His "disciples" in truth reject not a single Word of God, applicable to themselves. Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4, inclusive of every line, jot and tittle of the parable.

The seed removed from the heart of the first group by the devil, does not remain in the heart to further grow and produce fruit.

It was snatched from their heart.

When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does notunderstand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside. Matthew 13:19


Nothing you can say will change this simple truth.


JLB

 

[smaller]

The seed removed from the heart of the first group by the devil, does not remain in the heart to further grow and produce fruit.

It was snatched from their heart.

Just as it was from our hearts, prior to belief, which was the point of observation. Mark 4:15, Acts 26:18, Romans 11:8, 2 Cor. 3:14, 2 Cor. 4:4.

When we are called into Christ, we ARE called to TURN people from the power of darkness, of SATAN, unto Christ.

Remember the mission. People are not our enemies.

 

[JLB]

Just as it was from our hearts, prior to belief, which was the point of observation. Mark 4:15, Acts 26:18, Romans 11:8, 2 Cor. 3:14, 2 Cor. 4:4.

When we are called into Christ, we ARE called to TURN people from the power of darkness, of SATAN, unto Christ.

Remember the mission. People are not our enemies.

The seed removed from the heart of the first group by the devil, does not remain in the heart to further grow and produce fruit.

It was snatched from their heart.

When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does notunderstand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside. Matthew 13:19


Because the devil is our enemy doesn't change this simple truth.


JLB

 

[chessman]

Redefining biblical words is the earmark of those who deceive.

Can you show even one definition of the Biblical word "eternal" where it doesn't mean eternal/everlasting? Or truly doesn't mean truly? Repeated, lest some think He didn't really mean truly.

John 5:24 (LEB) Truly, truly I say to you that the one who hears my word and who believes the one who sent me has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
​

Biblically speaking, Eternal Life is eternal (everlasting, never perishing) else it's not Biblical.

And furthermore, Jesus doesn't leave us confused, deceived or twisted on the Biblical definition of "the one who hears my word and who believes (present tense) means verse someone who has not believed in the past either:

John 3:18 (LEB) The one who believes in him is not judged, but the one who does not believe has already been judged, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.​

He doesn't say 'he has stopped believing in the name of the one and only Son of God' or your famous twist: "he who believes for awhile is saved for awhile' .... He said what he meant to say; unbelievers in Him are people (soils if you will) who have NOT believed in the name of the one and only Son of God. And furthermore, who have already been judged (past tense). Not some fictional charcter who believed in Him (in the name of the one and only Son of God) for awhile then stopped.

And while we're on the Biblical word "believes', it is often defined by a non-salvific usage: Even the demons "believe" comes to mind. James 2:19 and many other passages use "belief" this way (non-salvifically). The word itself doesn't mean to be saved. It depends on what (or Who) it is that's the object of their belief.

Beliving with immediate joy, comes to mind too.

Mark 4:16 (LEB) And these are like the ones sown on the rocky ground, who whenever they hear the word immediately receive it with joy.
​

When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does notunderstand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside. Matthew 13:19

​

Does someone (some soil) who does not hear the word of the kingdom (never has seed sown into it) become saved? No, IMO. Nor does this soil bear any kingdom fruit. It's cursed soil from long ago.

Does someone (some soil) who hears the word of the kingdom but does NOT understand it become saved? No, says Jesus. Nor does this soil bear fruit, says Jesus.

Does someone (some soil) who hears the word of the kingdom but receives it with immediate joy become saved? No, IMO. Jesus doesn't say, one way or the other. Becoming saved involves an immediate awareness of guilt due their (our) personal sin/dirty nature. Then comes sorrow and repentence. Yes, one must first recognize then turn from their dirty sin. Then comes a yielding to The King. Then comes Salvation. Then comes Joy. Then comes (potentially) kingdom fruit given enough moisture and sunlight. But if you receive the word with immediate joy, you haven't repented. Regardless, does this soil bear any fruit, No, says Jesus.

​

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What I don't understand is how you re-interpret this and/or "fall away" into de-salvation.

Because 'fall away' in the parable is the equivalent of no longer believing (Luke 8:13 NASB). And John and Paul both say that you have to continue in the word of God to be saved.

"9Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son." (2 John 1:9 NASB)

"24 ...let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.
25This is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life." (1 John 2:24-25 NASB)

"12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life." (1 John 5:12 NASB)

"1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB)

That's how one interprets 'fall away' into de-salvation'. To fall away is to no longer believe (Luke 8:13 NASB). To no longer believe is to no longer have the Father, the Son, and eternal life.

Like I say, this is all very elementary. OSAS is the doctrine that introduces so much complexity and over thought into it so that in the end you get the exact opposite of what God's word says (believe doesn't 'really' mean saved, and unbelief 'really' means you're still saved).

It's quite literally the oldest trick in the Book: Cast doubt on the the word of God, twisting it, until you end up with exactly the opposite of what God said. That's what satan did to Eve. That's why I say all of this OSAS stuff is a spirit hard at work in the church--it's a spirit of deceit designed to teach and accomplish exactly opposite of what God said. And John made it clear that is what the enemy is trying to do with all this OSAS stuff:

26 These things I have written to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you." (1 John 2:26 NASB)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Can you show even one definition of the Biblical word "eternal" where it doesn't mean eternal/everlasting?

Unbelief doesn't make eternal life no longer eternal.
Unbelief makes it so you do not possess--or no longer possess--eternal life.

As long as a person believes, they have eternal life:

"you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain (unless Christ has not really risen from the dead)." (1 Corinthians 15:2 NASB)

 

[JLB]

Can you show even one definition of the Biblical word "eternal" where it doesn't mean eternal/everlasting?

I believe eternal life does mean, life that is eternal and everlasting, however I believe Jesus understand's eternal life in a way we don't or can't, yet.

And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. John 17:3

This definition expresses life without beginning of end, as well as a quality of life that we don't "have" apart from Him, and being connected to Him in relationship.

Knowing Him is eternal life.

Knowing Him denotes a common life together, as a husband and wife have one life.

Obviously if a person can still die, then they don't have the reality of eternal life.

We have the promise of eternal life.

We have eternal life by faith, which is to say we have the substance of the hope of eternal life, which we will receive in reality, when He returns on the last Day, to raise us up.

Which is why Jesus said:

35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.
Luke 20:35-36


Notice it is when we attain that age and the resurrection from the dead, that we will not die anymore.

So, I am in agreement with you about eternal life being everlasting, I also believe you ignore some aspects about it.


JLB

 

[smaller]

The entire "hold fast" postures would entirely depend on what particular words of scripture any believer thinks to "hold fast" to.

Obviously some hold fast to these Words:

John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

And others couldn't hold fast to the above if their life depended on it. They may not have even heard it to start with. There are a lot of people who are what may be termed, partially turned to LIFE in fear mongering sects. These are not always turned ALL THE WAY into HIS LIFE.

Proselytes tend to propagate their own partial sights that were given to them by their sects. These come with their brand attachments, openly displayed. Some dictating to bow to their flesh men scholars and doctors, some to their "systematic theology."

The world of divided sectarian religious proselytes is a sub product or by product of christianity. And usually these people carry condemnation to those outside their sect. Sad, but true.

Branding. It's a worldly thing. "Here's my package, here's my label." If you've been to their store, bought their box of cereal, ate it, you already know how many ounces of fruit loops are in the container.

It's not really all that easy of a task to hold on to Eternal Life. It comes with great difficulties and challenges. It's "like" playing king of the mountain, where other players come to knock you off. An ugly game sometimes. Kids get hurt.