Cultivating a love for the truth… The Doctrine of Christ.

[Whatever]

Leviticus 19:2 "Speak to all the congregation of the children of Israel, and say to them: 'You shall be holy, for I the LORD your God am holy.
Leviticus 20:7 Consecrate yourselves therefore, and be holy, for I am the LORD your God.

Leviticus 20:26 And you shall be holy to Me, for I the LORD am holy, and have separated you from the peoples, that you should be Mine.

What were those sinless and holy people like?

1 Corinthians 10:1 For I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, 2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3 and all ate the same spiritual food, 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual Rock that followed them, and the Rock was Christ. 5 Nevertheless, with most of them God was not pleased, for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

Psalm 78:8 And may not be like their fathers, A stubborn and rebellious generation, A generation that did not set its heart aright, And whose spirit was not faithful to God.

You are going to bring up the "with most of them" to say "some of them were holy."

Numbers 26:65 For the LORD had said of them, “They shall die in the wilderness.” Not one of them was left, except Caleb the son of Jephunneh and Joshua the son of Nun.

Numbers 1:45 So all those listed of the people of Israel, by their fathers' houses, from twenty years old and upward, every man able to go to war in Israel — 46 all those listed were 603,550.

Double that number for the women and you get around 1,207,100. Around one and a quarter million.
Out of that you get Caleb and Joshua maybe Moses.

All of those were commanded to be holy or perfect.

 

[JLB]

As this is in the "cultivating a love for the truth" thread, shouldn't we be in agreement with what Jesus said about the truth ?
He said, in John 8:32, that the truth could make us free.
Jesus elaborated on what we can be free from, in verse 34..."Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin."
Was that news harmful to new believers ?

Aren't you the one that Jesus taught His disciples the law of Moses?

Here is what Jesus taught about about a brother who sins.

“Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone.
If he hears you, you have gained your brother.
But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’
And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector. Matthew 18:15-17


This is how Christians are to deal with a brother who sins.

 

[Hopeful 2]

He set the standard and that is our aim. Are you seriously going to argue that the Israelites were perfectly holy? If so, I think you need to reread the OT.

The OT Israelites were not holy.
The NT ones in Christ are.
Is there any unholiness in Christ ?
No ?
Well then those who are in Christ must be holy !
Or are you saying that there are Christians who are not in Christ ?

The NT is clear: believers still struggle with temptation and sin

As God has made it possible to now resist temptation, sin isn't a problem anymore.
In fact, God said we will never be tempted above that which we can handle ! (1 Cor 10:13)

--only Jesus was tempted but sinless--and we are to continually confess our sins for forgiveness, with Jesus as our advocate before the Father..

Why not use Jesus' advocacy before committing a sin ?
Those walking in the light, (God), don't commit sin.
There is no sin in God, so if one is committing sin, they are not in God.
Those whose repentance from sin is real, don't commit sin.
Those baptized into Christ don't commit sin.

 

[Hopeful 2]

And what does that mean? Sinless?

It means obedient to God.

Perfect = G5046 - teleios - complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with G3588) completeness: - of full age, man, perfect.
Mathew 19:21 Jesus said to him, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."
Have you sold all you have yet?

In the context Jesus uses, yes, I have.

1 Corinthians 14:20 Brethren, do not be children in understanding; however, in malice be babes, but in understanding be mature.
1 Corinthians 2:6 However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.
1 Corinthians 14:20 Brethren, do not be children in understanding; however, in malice be babes, but in understanding be mature.
Mature same Greek word G5046 - teleios
Philippians 3:12 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me.
perfected = teleioō - to complete, that is, (literally) accomplish, or (figuratively) consummate (in character): - consecrate, finish, fulfil, (make) perfect.
Paul blows your whole theory out of the water. An Apostle who was inspired to write Scripture has not attained perfection.

What Paul had yet to attain, in Phil 3, was the resurrection of the dead, (v11), and his new vessel (v21).

Hebrews 5:14 But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
full age = G5046 - teleios (see above)

Sometimes "perfect" just means "perfect".
Look at the OP title.
Didn't Jesus say that the truth would make you free ? (John 8:32)
Didn't He follow that claim up with what one can be freed from ? (John 8:34)
The truth can make a man free from committing sin.

Do you believe Him ?

 

[Hopeful 2]

Aren't you the one that Jesus taught His disciples the law of Moses?

That is an incomplete sentence that made no sense.

Here is what Jesus taught about about a brother who sins.
“Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone.
If he hears you, you have gained your brother.
But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’
And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector. Matthew 18:15-17

Did you notice that Jesus isn't talking to Christians ?
He is talking to OT Jews who had not yet been given the gifts of repentance from sin and baptism in His name for the remission of past sins/rebirth from God's seed.
They didn't have the gift of the Holy Ghost either.

This is how Christians are to deal with a brother who sins.

If my brother committed a sin, it would be because he hasn't converted to Christianity.
He is still living without a real repentance from sin and rebirth from God's seed.
He is of the world.
My brothers and sisters in Christ, don't commit sin.
Sinners are not in Christ, as there is no sin in Him.

 

[JLB]

Did you notice that Jesus isn't talking to Christians ?
He is talking to OT Jews who had not yet been given the gifts of repentance from sin and baptism in His name for the remission of past sins/rebirth from God's seed.
They didn't have the gift of the Holy Ghost either.

Yes of course.

Jesus was teaching His disciples who were old testament Jews, all about the law of Moses.

I got it!!

Please don't quote any more passages from Jesus because all He taught was the law of Moses.

As this is in the "cultivating a love for the truth" thread, shouldn't we be in agreement with what Jesus said about the truth ?
He said, in John 8:32, that the truth could make us free.
Jesus elaborated on what we can be free from, in verse 34..."Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin."
Was that news harmful to new believers ?

John 8:32 is Jesus teaching the law of Moses to OT Jews.

Hopefully I used complete sentences that make sense to you.

 

[Whatever]

My brothers and sisters in Christ, don't commit sin.

But if one did, you would say he is not a real Christian and needs to be immersed into Christ again, and again, and again and again.

At that point a sane person would say the heck with it. I will never be good enough.

What Paul had yet to attain, in Phil 3, was the resurrection of the dead, (v11), and his new vessel (v21).

Nobody attains to this except at the last day. That is so obvious, why would Paul need to even say that?
Some more words of men for you:
Barnes notes:
This is a distinct assertion of the apostle Paul that he did not regard himself as a perfect man. He had not reached that state where he was free from sin. It is not indeed a declaration that no one was perfect, or that no one could be in this life but it is a declaration that he did not regard himself as having attained to it.
Yet who can urge better claims to having attained perfection than Paul could have done?
Who has surpassed him in love, and zeal, and self-denial, and true devotedness to the service of the Redeemer?
Who has more elevated views of God, and of the plan of salvation?
Who prays more, or lives nearer to God than he did?
That must be extraordinary piety which surpasses that of the apostle Paul; and he who lays claim to a degree of holiness which even Paul did not pretend to, gives little evidence that he has any true knowledge of himself, or has ever been imbued with the true humility which the gospel produces.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Yes of cobout the law of Moses.
I got it!!
Please don't quote any more passages from Jesus because all He taught was the law of Moses.

It was you who brought up His (OT) teaching about "brothers" who sin.
John 8:32 is Jesus teaching the law of Moses to OT Jews.
The same teaching applies to all.
The truth does not change, and neither does its effect.
Now days, any one called a brother may either be a bro' in Christ or a bro' from mom, or country, or association. etc.

Hopefully I used complete sentences that make sense to you.

Yes it did, thank you.

 

[Hopeful 2]

But if one did, you would say he is not a real Christian and needs to be immersed into Christ again, and again, and again and again.

Thank God that won't happen.
If a poser came along and asserted his repentance from sin, and was water baptized in the name of Jesus Christ by us, but sinned again, he would not be kicked out if he again asserted a true repentance from sin.
Until his repentance was true though, his first baptism was useless.

At that point a sane person would say the heck with it. I will never be good enough. that give up

It is the servants of sin that walk away.
No man can serve two masters.
Servants of sin cannot serve God too.

Nobody attains to this except at the last day. That is so obvious, why would Paul need to even say that?

Correct.
The perfection of the new vessel will have to wait until the resurrection of the dead to eternal life.
But we can be perfect in our relationship to God and His Son, while we wait.

Some more words of men for you:
Barnes notes:
This is a distinct assertion of the apostle Paul that he did not regard himself as a perfect man. He had not reached that state where he was free from sin. It is not indeed a declaration that no one was perfect, or that no one could be in this life but it is a declaration that he did not regard himself as having attained to it.
Yet who can urge better claims to having attained perfection than Paul could have done?
Who has surpassed him in love, and zeal, and self-denial, and true devotedness to the service of the Redeemer?
Who has more elevated views of God, and of the plan of salvation?
Who prays more, or lives nearer to God than he did?
That must be extraordinary piety which surpasses that of the apostle Paul; and he who lays claim to a degree of holiness which even Paul did not pretend to, gives little evidence that he has any true knowledge of himself, or has ever been imbued with the true humility which the gospel produces.

Barnes is a false teacher.
Phil 3:15..."Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you."
Who is Paul talking about there ?
Himself, and the other perfect in Christ folks !

 

[Whatever]

Phil 3:15..."Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you."
Who is Paul talking about there ?
Himself, and the other perfect in Christ folks !

No, Paul denies this of himself a few verses earlier.

Philippians 3:12 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me.

Again that word can simply mean "mature."

Philippians 3:16 Nevertheless, to the degree that we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us be of the same mind.

None of them including Paul were perfect or mature. He is saying "to the degree that we have already attained this perfection, let us walk . . .
Here are a few other translations.
Christian Standard Bible
16 In any case, we should live up to whatever truth we have attained.
Common English Bible
16 Only let’s live in a way that is consistent with whatever level we have reached.
Contemporary English Version
16 But we must keep going in the direction that we are now headed.
Modern English Version
16 Nevertheless, according to what we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us be of the same mind.
New English Translation
16 Nevertheless, let us live up to the standard that we have already attained
New International Version
16 Only let us live up to what we have already attained.
New American Standard Bible
16 however, let’s keep living by that same standard to which we have attained.

 

[Whatever]

James 3:2 For we all stumble in many things. If anyone does not stumble in word, he is a perfect man, able also to bridle the whole body.

“A perfect husband” also, for anēr is husband as well as man in distinction from woman (gunē). The wife is at liberty to test her husband by this rule of the tongue.

James 3:8 But no man can tame the tongue. It is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.

no - oudeis = not even one (man, woman or thing), that is, none, nobody, nothing: - any (man), aught, man, neither any (thing), never (man), no (man), none (+ of these things), not (any, at all, -thing), nought.

man = anthrōpos = human

So, no person can tame the tongue (or keyboard) and thus cannot be perfect.

James is writing to "his brethren." He has to write to them about envy and self-seeing. In chapter he warns them about "wars" and "fights." He calls them "sinners" and "double minded." He talks about their "boasting in their arrogance." In verse 5 he criticizes the rich (we today are probably better off than those ever were.)
He tells them to not grumble against one another, brethren, lest you be condemned.
He tells them "do not swear, either by heaven or by earth or with any other oath. But let your "Yes" be "Yes," and your "No," "No," lest you fall into judgment."
He tells them "Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed."
But according to a certain poster here, you should have no trespasses to confess and if you do, you are not saved.
Finally:
James 5:19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back,
James 5:20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.

Notices James says someone turns him back, not re-converts him.

 

[Hopeful 2]

No, Paul denies this of himself a few verses earlier.
Philippians 3:12 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me.

The "perfect" here is only in the sense of the new vessel.
Not in his relationship to God.

Again that word can simply mean "mature."

It also means what it says...perfect.

Philippians 3:16 Nevertheless, to the degree that we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us be of the same mind.

The verse before that one is..."Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you." (Phil 3:15)
The verse after your citation is..."Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample." (Phil 3:17)
You've plucked out one verse, without regard to its context.

None of them including Paul were perfect or mature. He is saying "to the degree that we have already attained this perfection, let us walk . . .
Here are a few other translations.

The only thing Paul awaited, was the resurrection from the dead and his new vessel.

Christian Standard Bible
16 In any case, we should live up to whatever truth we have attained.
Common English Bible
16 Only let’s live in a way that is consistent with whatever level we have reached.
Contemporary English Version
16 But we must keep going in the direction that we are now headed.
Modern English Version
16 Nevertheless, according to what we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us be of the same mind.
New English Translation
16 Nevertheless, let us live up to the standard that we have already attained
New International Version
16 Only let us live up to what we have already attained.
New American Standard Bible
16 however, let’s keep living by that same standard to which we have attained.

The level they had reached, was perfect obedience to God in the vessels quickened by the Holy Ghost at their baptism into Christ's resurrection.

 

[Whatever]

You've plucked out one verse, without regard to its context.

Te verse before and the verse after didn't change anything. Here they are together:

Philippians 3:15 Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you. 16 Nevertheless, to the degree that we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us be of the same mind. 17 Brethren, join in following my example, and note those who so walk, as you have us for a pattern.

If any non-mature think different, God will reveal this. nevertheless to the degree that we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us be of the same mind. I don't see verse 17 adding anything. You only complain because verse 15 has your trigger word "perfect."

The level they had reached, was perfect obedience to God in the vessels quickened by the Holy Ghost at their baptism into Christ's resurrection.

Too many passages even in John refute this.

1 John 5:16 If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life—to those who commit sins that do not lead to death. There is sin that leads to death; I do not say that one should pray for that.

1 John 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin. . .

I am writing this so that you may not sin, but if anyone does sin, he is a fake Christian, a liar, and of the devil.

Romans 14:15 For if your brother is grieved by what you eat, you are no longer walking in love. By what you eat, do not destroy the one for whom Christ died.

1 John 4:8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

I think that idea of offending a weaker brother applies to more than just eating meat offered to idols.
What if a brother is offended by you smoking cigarettes?
What if a brother is offended by you wearing pants to Church instead of a dress?
What if a brother is offended by you having your hair too short?
What if a brother is offended by you reading anything other than the King James?

Will you stop doing everything that offends others or just say "that's your problem?"
That would be a sin. No temptation required.

Romans 15:2 Let each of us please his neighbor for his good, to build him up.

I think you have a woefully inadequate understanding of what "perfection" is.

 

[Whatever]

The only thing Paul awaited, was the resurrection from the dead and his new vessel.

And he is still waiting for it.

The "perfect" here is only in the sense of the new vessel.

Now I can accept this. The "not sinning" is the Holy Seed implanted in us at salvation. The new man. But the old man (your human brain that has your memories) is not gone.

Colossians 3:5 Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry.
3:5 Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, 3:8 But now you must put them all away: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and obscene talk from your mouth.

If the Old Man was really crucified and dead, why does Paul tell us to put these things to death or put them away? Because you still have your flesh and blood brain with its memories and habits. The New Man doesn't need a brain, but your physical body does. When we die, then we will no longer have this bugging us.
I think the novel about Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde came from this problem.

 

[follower]

If the Old Man was really crucified and dead, why does Paul tell us to put these things to death or put them away?

It is no problem to repeat the instructions, again and again .....

the old habits are lifetimes of bad habits instilled in the very warp and woof of almost everyone's family here (on the forum(s)). Getting free requires leaving it all behind.

 

[follower]

for I the LORD am holy, and have separated you from the peoples, that you should be Mine.

 

[Hopeful 2]

And he is still waiting for it.

Amen.

Now I can accept this. The "not sinning" is the Holy Seed implanted in us at salvation.

The 'not sinning' is the result of having been reborn of God's seed.

The new man. But the old man (your human brain that has your memories) is not gone.

Of course not.
Thankfully, the reborn have the mind of Christ.

Colossians 3:5 Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry.
3:5 Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, 3:8 But now you must put them all away: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and obscene talk from your mouth.

In Col 3:5 the word you interpret as "put to death" is actually "keep dead".

If the Old Man was really crucified and dead, why does Paul tell us to put these things to death or put them away ?

Not all of his audience has been converted.
I wasn't, when I first read the bible.

Because you still have your flesh and blood brain with its memories and habits. The New Man doesn't need a brain, but your physical body does. When we die, then we will no longer have this bugging us.
I think the novel about Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde came from this problem.

Hyde didn't kill the old man, before becoming Jekyll. (or is it the other way around ?)
We can.
The once worldly oriented man/mind is gone, when one is baptized into Christ after a true turn from sin.
A new creature takes its place.
Thanks be to God !

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

Please explain how John 3:18-21 somehow teaches us that God doesn’t love the unsaved people of the world?

God as the Creator has a universal love for everyone, because he made them. However, a majority of the people either actively or passively reject God's love for them in the "world," which will be the "new earth" that is reserved for believers (Revelation 21). The eventual banishment of lifelong unbelievers will show them God's justice instead of his special love that is given to believers. That special love is the kind that unsaved people do not receive because of their rebellion.

 

[JLB]

God as the Creator has a universal love for everyone, because he made them. However, a majority of the people either actively or passively reject God's love for them in the "world," which will be the "new earth" that is reserved for believers (Revelation 21). The eventual banishment of lifelong unbelievers will show them God's justice instead of his special love that is given to believers. That special love is the kind that unsaved people do not receive because of their rebellion.

These that are standing before Him on that Day, to be judged are all His people, His servants "believers" as the preceding parables plainly teach.


14 “For the kingdom of heaven is like a man traveling to a far country, who called his own servants and delivered his goods to them. 15 And to one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one, to each according to his own ability; and immediately he went on a journey. 16 Then he who had received the five talents went and traded with them, and made another five talents. 17 And likewise he who had received two gained two more also. 18 But he who had received one went and dug in the ground, and hid his lord’s money. 19 After a long time the lord of those servants came and settled accounts with them.
20 “So he who had received five talents came and brought five other talents, saying, ‘Lord, you delivered to me five talents; look, I have gained five more talents besides them.’ 21 His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you were faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’ 22 He also who had received two talents came and said, ‘Lord, you delivered to me two talents; look, I have gained two more talents besides them.’ 23 His lord said to him, Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’
24 “Then he who had received the one talent came and said, ‘Lord, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you have not sown, and gathering where you have not scattered seed. 25 And I was afraid, and went and hid your talent in the ground. Look, there you have what is yours.’
26 “But his lord answered and said to him, ‘You wicked and lazy servant, you knew that I reap where I have not sown, and gather where I have not scattered seed. 27 So you ought to have deposited my money with the bankers, and at my coming I would have received back my own with interest. 28 So take the talent from him, and give it to him who has ten talents.
29 For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away. 30 And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ 31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’
41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
44 “Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Matthew 25:14-46

 

[Whatever]

God as the Creator has a universal love for everyone, because he made them.

Which love are you talking about?
Agapē
Philia
Eros
Storge

Are you sure He made every one of them?

Matthew 13:37 He answered and said to them: "He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man.
38 . . . but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. 39 The enemy who sowed them is the devil . . .

The good seed were sowed (speirō) by God and the Tares were sowed (speirō) by the Devil.
Yes, only God can create, but it sounds like the wheat were planned by God and the tares were just allowed to be born, they would be like minor characters in the story.