[_ Old Earth _] 10,000 clergy back evolution

[reznwerks]

"More than 10,000 clergy have signed up to the "Clergy Letter Project", launched in 2004 by Michael Zimmerman of the University of Wisconsin in Oshkosh. "Evolution Sunday", held in February to discuss the compatibility of science and religion, is planned to become a yearly event at churches across the US, Zimmerman says."

http://www.newscientist.com/channel/lif ... heory.html

 

[Charlie Hatchett]

They have a list of all the churches that participated this past Sunday--I copied them into Word and then did a search by denomination. Here's what I came up with

Church of Christ (UCC) 87
Episcopal 67
Methodist 57
Presbyterian 54
Unitarian Universalist 40
Lutheran 39
Baptist 10
Disciples of Christ 8
Catholic 4

So, it seems like the majority of churches were Church of Christ, Episcopal, Methodist, and Presbyterian. Are all these denominations non-Christian, Mr. Judgemental?

Not judgemental, just speaking the truth.

Judge for your self...are these churches teaching what Christ taught.


ICC- The ICoC's teachings on baptism and salvation deny the

essential biblical doctrine of salvation by grace alone through faith

alone...so...yup, not biblical so therfore not Christian (most major

denominations consider them a cult...because they so blantantly contradict

the teachings of Christ.


Episcopal- Blesses homosexual unions. Has homosexual

Bishops and priests. So certainly teaching false doctrines. They are in

the process of being disciplined by The Anglican Church, which has

threatened to cast them out into cult status if they don't repent, and begin

once again upholding God's word.

United Methodist- Deny diety of Christ; UMC Bishop James

Thomas:"We do not believe in rigid doctrinal concepts to hold us steady in a

wavering world."; 60% of the Methodist clergy do not believe in the virgin

birth; 82% say they do not believe the Bible is the perfect Word of God.


Unitarian Universalist- reject the Bible as being the Word of God;

deny the doctrine of the Trinity; belief that all human beings gain salvation;

deny the existance of hell; believe that each individual has the right to

decide for themselves what to believe in, and that others should not infringe

upon this right.


Catholic- Deny Salvation by Grace Alone; Pope can change what is in the

Bible if he wants; The Catechism presents the Roman Catholic priest as

"another Christ", something which the Bible condemns and forbids. Yet,

Jesus talked about the time when "other Christs" would arise.



So, yes, for these denominations, the inclusion of evolution into their faith

would be a very logical step...Their non-Christian. don't judge a book by it's

cover...read the pages.




Peace
___________________________________________________________________


This is the Statement of Faith of our forums, and of our leadership.

There is one true God, eternally existing in three persons - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

The bible is the inspired, infallible, and only authoritative Word of God.

Jesus Christ, God's only Son, was conceived by the Holy Spirit and born a virgin birth, lived a sinless life, died an atoning death upon a cross, raised from the dead, and ascended to the right hand of the Father where He will one day return to the earth.

That man is in a lost and depraved condition by nature, and is in need of the new birth by the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit.

In justification by faith apart from the works of the law.

That salvation comes through Jesus Christ alone, to whom we must respond with repentance, faith, and obedience. Through Christ we come into a right relationship with God, our sins are forgiven, and we receive eternal life.


Peace

 

[Charlie Hatchett]

delete...double post

 

[jwu]

Catholic- Deny Salvation by Grace Alone; Pope can change what is in the

Bible if he wants; The Catechism presents the Roman Catholic priest as

"another Christ", something which the Bible condemns and forbids. Yet,

Jesus talked about the time when "other Christs" would arise.

As far as i know that term is used synonymously to "Christian", and is applied to anyone who is baptized. It does not declare priests to be incarnations of Jesus or anything like that.
In German the word for "Christian" is "Christ" by the way, and it's used like that by all denominations. A different term does not even exist.

 

[ArtGuy]

In German the word for "Christian" is "Christ" by the way, and it's used like that by all denominations. A different term does not even exist.

Well, then. Clearly, all German-speakers are unChristian.

 

[Late_Cretaceous]

In other words - not a single one of those 10,000 clergy are REAL Christians.

 

[Late_Cretaceous]

Must be nice to be able to be apart of this elite little group of THE SAVED and be able to look down smugly on all those who are condemned to eternal damnation - and know that you are so much better then them. Must be a very nice feeling indeed. :roll:

"for all have sinned and fall short
of the glory of God," Romans 3:23

 

[jwu]

It's saddening.

 

[soma]

It is not good when Christians want to crucify other Christians.

 

[Heidi]

Catholic- Deny Salvation by Grace Alone; Pope can change what is in the

Bible if he wants; The Catechism presents the Roman Catholic priest as

"another Christ", something which the Bible condemns and forbids. Yet,

Jesus talked about the time when "other Christs" would arise.

As far as i know that term is used synonymously to "Christian", and is applied to anyone who is baptized. It does not declare priests to be incarnations of Jesus or anything like that.
In German the word for "Christian" is "Christ" by the way, and it's used like that by all denominations. A different term does not even exist.

You need to read Chris'ts words to know what a Christian is, not any Tom, Dick, or Harry with his own definition of a Christian. True Christians follow Christ, not people.

 

[Charlie Hatchett]

Well, then. Clearly, all German-speakers are unChristian.

Lol Art!! Smart aleck :D

 

[Charlie Hatchett]

In other words - not a single one of those 10,000 clergy are REAL Christians.

I never said that. But I do agree that one has to believe:

1. That he/she is a sinner.

2. That there is a God (just to clarify...because we're not all theist's here)

3. That God is perfect by definition.

4. That the only way of a good relationship with God is through His own

workings.

5. The way of working out our salvation is by His becoming fully human and

suffering the consequences for our disobedience and basically "blowing God

off". This substitutional sacrifice is forever sufficient for our trangressions

(basically pissing God off).

6. Not denying Christ and his sacraficial, unconditonal love for us.

7. And most importantly, accepting God's grace and recognizing Him as the

leader of your life, as confirmed by ones attitude towards others and one's

behaviors towards others (repentance).


I have come to the conclusion, through much debate and interaction with all

here on the forum, that none of us set the bar for salvation: Jesus already

took care of that.

Just because I may argue for what I believe is the truth spelt out by God

through the Holy Spirit, doesn't mean that I believe that I'm "more saved"

than the rest of you "heathens" 8-) (Yes, believe it or not jwu, I love you

bro).

Still, as should be very obvious by now, I'll definitely argue for what I think

is the correct interpretation of Scripture.

Peace

 

[Late_Cretaceous]

1. That he/she is a sinner.

2. That there is a God (just to clarify...because we're not all theist's here)

3. That God is perfect by definition.

4. That the only way of a good relationship with God is through His own

workings.

5. The way of working out our salvation is by His becoming fully human and

suffering the consequences for our disobedience and basically "blowing God

off". This substitutional sacrifice is forever sufficient for our trangressions

(basically pissing God off).

6. Not denying Christ and his sacraficial, unconditonal love for us.

7. And most importantly, accepting God's grace and recognizing Him as the

leader of your life, as confirmed by ones attitude towards others and one's

behaviors towards others (repentance).

You forgot #8: Rejects evolutionary thoery :wink:

 

[reznwerks]

believe

In other words - not a single one of those 10,000 clergy are REAL Christians.

I never said that. But I do agree that one has to believe:

Did you ever ask yourself why does Christianity place so much emphasis on "believing"?

 

[Heidi]

Millions of people thought Hitler and Stalin were great men in the 1930's. And most of the churches in the 3rd Reich converted to nazism. Did that make them right? :o

Sorry, but what the majority of people think has nothing to do with what's true or false. 99% of the world thinks Jesus is a lie or a myth. Only God knows what's true and what's false. And that is why Jesus said that only few will go to heaven but there will be many who call him Lord and will not go to heaven. Only Jesus has the words of eternal life, not people. And since Jesus himself is the Word, the Word said that humans were created by God, not from the womb of wild beasts. It's too bad that human logic alone isn't enough to see that animals don't turn into humans or breed humans. But it isn't.

 

[reznwerks]

history

Millions of people thought Hitler and Stalin were great men in the 1930's. And most of the churches in the 3rd Reich converted to nazism. Did that make them right? :o
To the nations they represented they were great men.

Sorry, but what the majority of people think has nothing to do with what's true or false. 99% of the world thinks Jesus is a lie or a myth.
Did you ever ask yourself why this is?

Only God knows what's true and what's false. And that is why Jesus said that only few will go to heaven but there will be many who call him Lord and will not go to heaven. Only Jesus has the words of eternal life, not people. And since Jesus himself is the Word, the Word said that humans were created by God, not from the womb of wild beasts. It's too bad that human logic alone isn't enough to see that animals don't turn into humans or breed humans. But it isn't.
Haven't seen God haven't seen Jesus. Promises made but no one has come back to confirm or deny. Humans are animals. We eat, reproduce, defficate, grow old like animals. It might be hard to accept but the reality is there. Evidence that somehow only humans are going to escape the reality of assuming room temperature and then decaying without going anywhere just doesn't hold water.

 

[Heidi]

So are you saying that the followers of Hitler and Stalin were correct in assessing Hitler and Stalin as great men? Or don't you know? :o

I don't need to ask why Jesus is unpopular. He told us he would be; "The world will hate me because I testify that what it does is evil." It's clear as a bell. "Wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life and only a few find it." So Jesus was right again.

You can't see the wind either, but does that mean the wind doesn't exist? :o

You have a lot of questions to answer before you are qualifed to refute the things about which you have no understanding, my friend. ;-)

 

[Charlie Hatchett]

You forgot #8: Rejects evolutionary theory

Lol LC! :D

I don't believe that's spelt out anywhere in the plan...then our salvation would

be based on works. (even though I personally think God spelt out our origins

clearly).

Peace

 

[reznwerks]

relative

So are you saying that the followers of Hitler and Stalin were correct in assessing Hitler and Stalin as great men? Or don't you know? :o
You need to do a better job of reading and understanding what is written. To those people at the time in Germany and Russia Hitler and Stalin did great things for their people whether you agree with them or not. You can even include Mussalini for the Italians. If you go back before 1940 these men were very popular in their countries and did great things. DId the rest of the world benefit? Obviously not unless you drive a VW.

I don't need to ask why Jesus is unpopular. He told us he would be; "The world will hate me because I testify that what it does is evil." It's clear as a bell. "Wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life and only a few find it." So Jesus was right again.
It's in the bible but who wrote it down. Do you think Jesus had a personal biographer at his side all the time like our presidents do today?
Do you really think that Jesus would make some remarkable comment and them someone was there to copy it down and more importantly knew what was important and what was not. Get in the real world.

You can't see the wind either, but does that mean the wind doesn't exist? :o
We can't see the wind but we can observe it's actions and predict it and measure it. We can't see electricity but nothing gets done without it. It is predictable and measurable.

You have a lot of questions to answer before you are qualifed to refute the things about which you have no understanding, my friend. ;-)
No I think you need to direct that statement to yourself. Evidence trumps belief everyday.

 

[Charlie Hatchett]

Did you ever ask yourself why does Christianity place so much emphasis on "believing"?

Because true belief in Christ's work on the cross (and all that it entails)

results in a repentant heart, which is the first step to salvation.


What I don't get about atheist's is most would have no problem admitting

that this was the creation of some sort of intelligence:

but, then, deny that this could be the result of intelligence:

Peace