119 Ministries

[Chopper]

Thank you JLB.

 

[JLB]

Acts 15 - Obedience or Legalism?

Title Block quote.

Does Acts 15 teach that we are not to still obey the Law of God as written by Moses, or just that we can not be saved by observing the law? To answer this, we need to know the debate and the groups involved. You may have always been told what to believe about Acts 15, now...let's test it.

This whole Video is about the fact that a Christian needs to obey all the law of Moses, to be obedient to God.

The teach that you can not be saved by this, but that you need to continue in obeying all the Law of Moses.

Not kindling a fire on the Sabbath.

Not eating pork.

Keeping all the feast's.

Circumcision.


That is what they are teaching. In order to obey God a person needs to keep the law of Moses.

The very definition of disobedience to God is sin.


JLB

 

[Chopper]

Wow!

 

[TOG]

How would you think they would hear the Gospel message in a synagog that is run by unsaved Jewish Rabbis.

They certainly were not saved in a synagog by Jewish Rabbis.

Don't talk badly about rabbis. They're no worse than anyone else, and some of them are saved.

And Peter said to Jesus, “Rabbi, it is good that we are here. (Mark 9:5 ESV)

And Jesus said to him, “What do you want me to do for you?” And the blind man said to him, “Rabbi, let me recover my sight.” (Mark 10:51 ESV)

And Peter remembered and said to him, “Rabbi, look! The fig tree that you cursed has withered.” (Mark 11:21 ESV)

Jesus turned and saw them following and said to them, “What are you seeking?” And they said to him, “Rabbi” (which means Teacher), “where are you staying?” (John 1:38 ESV)

This man came to Jesus by night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him.” (John 3:2 ESV)

And they came to John and said to him, “Rabbi, he who was with you across the Jordan, to whom you bore witness—look, he is baptizing, and all are going to him.” (John 3:26 ESV)
​

Both Jesus and John the Baptist were called rabbis in the Bible. Paul studied the law under rabbi Gamaliel. That makes Paul a rabbi as well. He was also a Pharisee. We need to be really careful when judging entire groups like that. We might end up criticizing people we don't intend to criticize.

The TOG
​

 

[TOG]

That is what they are teaching. In order to obey God a person needs to keep the law of Moses.

In order to obey God's will, we must obey what He has revealed His will to be. These people must be evil!

The TOG
​

 

[josefnospam]

Looking at their website, they say we need to keep the Law of Moses.
I read no further, they are wrong.

well said

 

[TOG]

Looking at their website, they say we need to keep the Law of Moses.
I read no further, they are wrong.

well said

Yes. You can tell everything about a group just by reading a couple of sentences. You don't have to read the rest of what they actually say. Just judge them by a few words, probably taken out of context. Well said indeed.

The TOG
​

 

[JLB]

Don't talk badly about rabbis. They're no worse than anyone else, and some of them are saved.

Talk badly about Rabbis?

Brother if a Jewish Rabbis is unsaved then how can he possibly make disciples?

That is not speaking badly of them.

Rabbi means teacher.

We need to be really careful when judging entire groups like that.

I am not judging entire groups.

Compelling people to keep the Law of Moses with all of the feast days, new moons , Sabbaths, food laws... is useless and a waste of time, against the desires of the the flesh.

Being filled with God's Spirit is what we are encouraged to do.


JLB

 

[josefnospam]

The very definition of disobedience to God is sin.


JLB

And that's what we are ...........sinners BUT we have a Saviour.
..............for ye are not under the law, but under grace............Romans 6:14...................When we sin, and we all do., we are under the grace of God. The law no longer has hold over us. Should we strive to do good and keep the law...........always. will we fail..........yes Are we forgiven ........yes

Are you suggesting we must keep all the laws of Moses to be accepted by God? No one can keep the law perfectly, because we are all sinners.
Thank God we have a saviour. I trust him.

 

[TOG]

Talk badly about Rabbis? Brother if a Jewish Rabbis is unsaved then how can he possibly make disciples?

You imply that all rabbis are unsaved. That is not the case. Paul was a rabbi. John the Baptist was a rabbi. Even Jesus was a rabbi. If they could be rabbis, why couldn't other rabbis be saved?

Compelling people to keep the Law of Moses with all of the feast days, new moons , Sabbaths, food laws... is useless and a waste of time, against the desires of the the flesh.

Keeping the law is against the desires of the flesh? Ummm... Is that really what you meant to say? The Bible says that law is spiritual (Rom. 7:14) and that the Spirit and the flesh oppose each other (Gal. 5:17). That means that you are right when you say that keeping the law is against the desire of the flesh. But it somehow seems different from other things you've said. And how you figure that doing what is spiritual and fighting against the desires of the flesh is a useless waste of time is something I must admit I don't understand.

I forgot to reply to this earlier.

The very definition of disobedience to God is sin.

Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. (I John 3:4 KJV)
​

That's right. The very definition of sin is disobedience to God's law.

The TOG
​

 

[TOG]

Are you suggesting we must keep all the laws of Moses to be accepted by God?

No. I have made it clear many times that I do not believe we are saved by keeping the law, but that we should keep the law because we are saved.

The TOG
​

 

[JLB]

You imply that all rabbis are unsaved. That is not the case. Paul was a rabbi. John the Baptist was a rabbi. Even Jesus was a rabbi. If they could be rabbis, why couldn't other rabbis be saved?

if a Jewish Rabbis is unsaved then how can he possibly make disciples?

Keeping the law is against the desires of the flesh?

Brother, that is not even close to what I said.

Compelling people to keep the Law of Moses with all of the feast days, new moons , Sabbaths, food laws... is useless and a waste of time, against the desires of the the flesh.

Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. (I John 3:4 KJV) That's right. The very definition of sin is disobedience to God's law.

So if a ministry says that the reason that they teach people to keep the Law of Moses is not for Salvation, but rather to obey God, that is the same as saying if you don't keep Moses Law it is sin.

Which is exactly the point I am trying to make with you.

They are making the keeping of the Law of Moses a requirement for being righteous before God, For not keeping the Law would be sin.


JLB

 

[TOG]

if a Jewish Rabbis is unsaved then how can he possibly make disciples?

You're the only one talking about unsaved rabbis. I'm talking about saved rabbis. If the Bible is telling Gentiles to get teaching from rabbis, we can assume that those rabbis should be saved.

Compelling people to keep the Law of Moses with all of the feast days, new moons , Sabbaths, food laws... is useless and a waste of time, against the desires of the the flesh.

(Emphasis by TOG)

You are saying (as far as I can see) that keeping the law, including feast days, new moons, Sabbaths and food laws, is both a useless waste of time and is against the desires of the flesh. Those two don't go together in my mind. I don't want to misrepresent what you say, so if I'm wrong, please explain what you meant.

So if a ministry says that the reason that they teach people to keep the Law of Moses is not for Salvation, but rather to obey God, that is the same as saying if you don't keep Moses Law it is sin.

If A is true and B is true then A=B? No, that's not the way it works.

A. The definition of sin is violating God's law (I John 3:4)
B. 119 Ministries says they don't teach salvation through keeping the law.

Both A and B are true, but A is not the same as B.

The TOG
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[reba]

Blood sacrifices are part of the Law. A big part

 

[TOG]

Dude, i read there entire statement of faith before you had even posted that message. I am not lying. It was the first thing i done.

I stand corrected. I probably should have said "I doubt many here have bothered to do that", instead of "I doubt anyone..."

The TOG
​

 

[Deborah13]

Compelling people to keep the Law of Moses with all of the feast days, new moons , Sabbaths, food laws...

"

This happens often as being a “word†from Yahweh straight to the individual. And since those who

have subjected themselves to this persons “authorityâ€, they don’t question it. The wolf can take what


Scripture defines as sin and say it’s not sin. Much like what the Pharisee’s did regarding the 5th

commandment. This happens often to fit what they want OR what the people may want. To tickle his

own ears or the ears of others. But the focus is to keep as many people in submission to them.

On the flip side we can only conclude that a good shepherd teaches a difference between the clean and

unclean and clearly teaches others to observe Yahweh’s Sabbaths (which includes His Feast days). A

good shepherd will proclaim ALL of the truth and pursue it himself."

https://s3-us-west-1.amazonaws.com/...1a9/Scripts - PDF English/FRUIT OF WOLVES.pdf

This is what they teach. So if your pastor is not teaching that you need to be keeping the "feasts, etc" he is a wolf in sheeps clothing.

 

[reba]

This is why i stay out of everything. Because i am no way near knowedgable enough to know real teachings and thats the problem. I can only read the word for myself and take it my own way interpretated the best i can and use that as the best option. No matter what one says another will say something else. They are wrong im right, no im right they are both wrong. Its never ending. Its not just faith. Its life in general. Everyone wants to believe they are the right way and know the truth and follow there ways. So to me it comes down to every individual is there own way but there can only be 1 truth.

yup

 

[Mike S]

yup

Yea its why Matt 7:5 is my favourite verse.

How people say there teachings are right and others are wrong. There way is right and everyone else is wrong.

Who is right and who can prove they are right?

Oh, and i still have a plank in my own eye so im no way saying im always right or dont make mistakes. Something i can admit.

Kiwi, you're finding what most of us find; there's a lot of mystery to our faith. Don't worry about the fact that there isn't universal agreement. Read the scripture and try to understand it the best you can. Let the scripture speak to you for itself, and have confidence that the Holy Spirit will guide you. God is not a masochist designing unsolvable mazes and creating Gordian knots as tests guaranteed to trap you in failure. He loves us and wants to draw us close, but we have to submit totally, and have faith in His saving Grace.

 

[JLB]

If the Bible is telling Gentiles to get teaching from rabbis, we can assume that those rabbis should be saved.

The bible is not teaching that Gentiles need teaching from Rabbis.

The Church has Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors and Teachers that The Lord has raised up to teach His people.

Acts 15:21 does not say this.

You are saying (as far as I can see) that keeping the law, including feast days, new moons, Sabbaths and food laws, is both a useless waste of time and is against the desires of the flesh.

Useless, of no value against the desires of the flesh.

21 "Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle," 22 which all concern things which perish with the using--according to the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh. Colossians 2:21-23

 

[Brother Mike]

And that's what we are ...........sinners BUT we have a Saviour.

We can pray if your still a sinner. I personally don't practice sin, nor do I very seldom have to say sorry or repent from something. There is a big difference in God showing you something and having a Ah moment, I'll change that, as opposed the practice of something and having to completely cut it off. That is what sinners do, they practice sin.

I am also glad that bacon is still on the table, I was getting concerned after reading some of these post.

Mike.