1948 significant??

[carey]

10 fulfilled in 1948
These 10 Bible prophecies were fulfilled in 1948 when Israel became an independent, united nation for the second time in history, and for the first time in 2,900 years.

1. Jacob's descendants would regain control of Israel
Bible passage: Amos 9:14-15
Written: about 750 BC
Fulfilled: Since 1948
In Amos 9:14-15, the prophet said that there would come a time when the exiles of Israel would again have Israel as their own land and that they would never be uprooted again. Amos lived about 2700 years ago, during a time when the people of Israel were being forced out of their homeland by a succession of foreign invasions. Despite many centuries of exile, many Jews returned to Israel and reclaimed sovereignty over a portion of their ancient homeland. This declaration of independence, in 1948, triggered a war with the surrounding countries, which objected to the presence of a Jewish state. On May 15, 1948, the day that armies from the surrounding countries invaded, Azzam Pasha, the Secretary General of the Arab League, said "This will be a war of extermination and a momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacres and the Crusades." Similar quotes were uttered by others during the war of 1948-49 and during the two major wars that followed. Despite its tiny size, Israel prevailed in these wars, preventing its people from being uprooted again, as they had been in ancient times.
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Amos 9:14-15
I will bring back my exiled people Israel; they will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them. They will plant vineyards and drink their wine; they will make gardens and eat their fruit. I will plant Israel in their own land, never again to be uprooted from the land I have given them," says the Lord your God.

2. Israel would be brought back to life
Bible passage: Ezekiel 37:10-14
Written: between 593-571 BC
Fulfilled: 1948
In Ezekiel 37:10-14, the prophet receives a vision in which Israel was seen as a scattering of dried-up bones. In this vision, God tells Ezekiel that the bones (Israel) would be brought back to life. Just as Ezekiel had prophesized about 2600 years ago, the Jews were brought back to the land, and the country of Israel was brought back to life. Israel re-established sovereignty in 1948, a mere three years after the end of the Holocaust, during which the Nazis killed about one-third of the world's Jewish population.
- Copyright AboutBibleProphecy.com and 100prophecies.org
Ezekiel 37:10-14
So I prophesied as he commanded me, and breath entered them; they came to life and stood up on their feet--a vast army. Then he said to me: "Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. They say, `Our bones are dried up and our hope is gone; we are cut off.' Therefore prophesy and say to them: `This is what the Sovereign Lord says: O my people, I am going to open your graves and bring you up from them; I will bring you back to the land of Israel. Then you, my people, will know that I am the Lord, when I open your graves and bring you up from them. I will put my Spirit in you and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land. Then you will know that I the Lord have spoken, and I have done it, declares the Lord.'"

3. Isaiah spoke of a Israel being reborn in one day
Bible passage: Isaiah 66:7-8
Written: perhaps between 701-681 BC
Fulfilled: 1948
In Isaiah 66:7-8, the prophet foreshadowed the re-birth of Israel in 1948. Isaiah describes a woman giving birth before going into labor, and he speaks of a country being born in one day. This accurately describes what happened on May 14, 1948 - when the Jews declared independence for Israel as a united and sovereign nation for the first time in 2900 years.

During that same day, the United States issued a statement recognizing Israel's sovereignty. And, only hours beforehand, a United Nations mandate expired, ending British control of the land. During a 24-hour span of time, foreign control of the land of Israel had formally ceased, and Israel had declared its independence, and its independence was acknowledged by other nations. Modern Israel was literally was born in a single day.

Isaiah said the birth would take place before there would be labor pains. And that too is precisely what happened. A movement called Zionism began in the 1800s to encourage Jews worldwide to move to Israel, which at that time was called Palestine. Within hours of the declaration of independence in 1948, Israel was attacked by the surrounding countries of Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq and Saudi Arabia.

When reading Isaiah 66:7-8, keep in mind that Israel's status as a sovereign nation was established and reaffirmed during the course of a single day, and that it was born of a movement called Zionism, and that its declaration of independence was not the result of a war but rather the cause of one.
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Isaiah 66:7-8
"Before she goes into labor, she gives birth; before the pains come upon her, she delivers a son. Who has ever heard of such a thing? Who has ever seen such things? Can a country be born in a day or a nation be brought forth in a moment? Yet no sooner is Zion in labor than she gives birth to her children."

4. Israel would be re-established as a united nation
Bible passage: Ezekiel 37:21-22
Written: between 593-571 BC
Fulfilled: 1948
In Ezekiel 37:21-22, the prophet said that God would one day bring the people of Israel back to Israel, as a united nation. This might have been a shock for Ezekiel. He lived about 2600 years ago. At that time, the people of Israel had already divided themselves into two separate kingdoms. And, both kingdoms had been conquered by foreign invaders, who forced many of the people, including Ezekiel, into exile. But, when Jews reclaimed sovereignty in 1948, they did so as a united people, creating one nation - Israel.
- Copyright AboutBibleProphecy.com and 100prophecies.org
Ezekiel 37:21-22
and say to them, `This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I will take the Israelites out of the nations where they have gone. I will gather them from all around and bring them back into their own land. I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. There will be one king over all of them and they will never again be two nations or be divided into two kingdoms.

5. The second Israel would be more impressive than the first
Bible passage: Jeremiah 16:14-15
Written: sometime from 626 to about 586 BC
Fulfilled: 1948
In Jeremiah 16:14-15, the prophet said the second Israel would be more impressive than the first. In many regards, it is. The first time that Israel was established as a country was after Moses led the descendants of Jacob (typically referred to today as Jews) out of Egypt, where they had been enslaved for 400 years. They then conquered Canaan and established Israel about 3400 years ago. But the second time that Israel was established was after the Jews had been scattered far and wide for a few thousand years. This time the Jews had to return from as far away as the United States, China, Russia and South Africa.
- Copyright AboutBibleProphecy.com and 100prophecies.org
Jeremiah 16:14-15
"However, the days are coming," declares the Lord, "when men will no longer say, 'As surely as the Lord lives, who brought the Israelites up out of Egypt,' but they will say, 'As surely as the Lord lives, who brought the Israelites up out of the land of the north and out of all the countries where he had banished them.' For I will restore them to the land I gave their forefathers.

6. Ezekiel predicted when Israel would be re-established
Bible passage: Ezekiel 4:3-6
Written: between 593-571 BC
Fulfilled: 1948
In Ezekiel 4:3-6, the prophet said the Jews, who had lost control of their homeland, would be punished for 430 years. This prophecy, according to Bible scholar Grant Jeffrey, pinpointed the 1948 rebirth of Israel. Here's a summary of Jeffrey's theory:

1. Ezekiel said the Jews were to be punished for 430 years because they had turned away from God. As part of the punishment, the Jews lost control of their homeland to Babylon. Many Jews were taken as captives to Babylon.

2. Babylon was later conquered by Cyrus in 539 BC. Cyrus allowed the Jews to leave Babylon and to return to their homeland. But, only a small number returned. The return had taken place sometime around 536 BC, about 70 years after Judah lost independence to Babylon.

3. Because most of the exiles chose to stay in pagan Babylon rather than return to the Holy Land, the remaining 360 years of their punishment was multiplied by 7. The reason is explained in Bible's book of Leviticus. (Leviticus 26:18, 26:21, 26:24 and 26:28). In Leviticus, it says that if the people did not repent while being punished, the punishment would be multiplied by 7. And, by staying in pagan Babylon, most exiles were refusing to repent.

4. So, if you take the remaining 360 years of punishment and multiply by 7, you get 2,520 years. But, Jeffrey says those years are based on an ancient 360-day lunar calendar. If those years are adjusted to the modern solar calendar, the result is 2,484 years.

5. And, there were exactly 2,484 years from 536 BC to 1948, which is the year that Israel regained independence.
- Copyright AboutBibleProphecy.com and 100prophecies.org
Ezekiel 4:3-6
(In this Bible passage, Ezekiel is asked by God to symbolically act out the 430 years of punishment)
… Then take an iron pan, place it as an iron wall between you and the city and turn your face toward it. It will be under siege, and you shall besiege it. This will be a sign to the house of Israel. "Then lie on your left side and put the sin of the house of Israel upon yourself. You are to bear their sin for the number of days you lie on your side. I have assigned you the same number of days as the years of their sin. So for 390 days you will bear the sin of the house of Israel. "After you have finished this, lie down again, this time on your right side, and bear the sin of the house of Judah. I have assigned you 40 days, a day for each year.

7. The people of Israel would return to "their own land"
Bible passage: Ezekiel 34:13
Written: between 593-571 BC
Fulfilled: after May 14, 1948
In Ezekiel 34:13, the prophet said that God would gather the people of Israel scattered throughout the world and bring them back to "their own land." After many centuries of dispersion, hundreds of thousands of Jews returned to their ancient homeland beginning in the late 1800s. But, millions more returned after Israel declared independence in 1948. In other words, millions of exiles returned to their ancient homeland which was now truly "their own land" in the sense that it was now a sovereign Jewish state.
- Copyright AboutBibleProphecy.com and 100prophecies.org
Ezekiel 34:13
I will bring them out from the nations and gather them from the countries, and I will bring them into their own land. I will pasture them on the mountains of Israel, in the ravines and in all the settlements in the land.

8. God would watch over the people of Israel
Bible passage: Jeremiah 31:10
Written: sometime from 626 to about 586 BC
Fulfilled: 1948, etc.
In Jeremiah 31:10, the prophet said that God would one day gather the Jews back to Israel and that He would watch over them like a shepherd. Believe what you wish, but there is evidence that God indeed has watched over the re-established nation of Israel. Hours after Israel declared independence in 1948, the surrounding countries attacked, hoping to replace the Jewish state with an Arab state. These countries are much larger than Israel. But tiny Israel prevailed in that war and was able to capture additional land, increasing the land size of Israel by 50 percent. Israel also prevailed in the two other major wars that followed.
- Copyright AboutBibleProphecy.com and 100prophecies.org
Jeremiah 31:10
"Hear the word of the Lord, O nations; proclaim it in distant coastlands: 'He who scattered Israel will gather them and will watch over his flock like a shepherd.'

9. Israel's army would be disproportionately powerful
Bible passage: Leviticus 26:3, 7-8
Written: perhaps around 1400 BC
Fulfilled: 1948-49, 1967, etc.
In Leviticus 26:3, 7-8, the Bible says that the army of Israel would have a supernatural power to prevail during times of conflict, if the people are obedient to the Lord. This Bible passage says that 5 people would be able to chase away 100 people, and that 100 would be able to chase away 10,000. Is there any proof to this incredible claim? Judge for yourself:

Example 1: Within hours of Israel's declaration of independence in 1948, Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, and Lebanon invaded Israel. The combined population of those countries was at least 20 million at that time. Israel had fewer than 1 million Jews. Even so, the Jews won the war and expanded the size of Israel by 50 percent.

Example 2: During the War of 1967, Israel attacked the air force bases of the surrounding countries and took control of Jerusalem for the first time in about 2000 years. They also seized additional territory. That war lasted a mere 6 days.

Example 3: On Oct. 6, 1973, Israel was attacked by Egypt and Syria. Other countries later joined the attack. But the Jews were able to push back the attacking armies and occupy land outside of Israel's borders.
- Copyright AboutBibleProphecy.com and 100prophecies.org
Leviticus 26:3, 7-8
"If you follow my decrees and are careful to obey my commands, … You will pursue your enemies, and they will fall by the sword before you. Five of you will chase a hundred, and a hundred of you will chase ten thousand, and your enemies will fall by the sword before you."

10. The fortunes of the people of Israel would be restored
Bible passage: Deuteronomy 30:3-5
Written: perhaps 1400 BC
Fulfilled: 1948, etc.
In Deuteronomy 30:3-5, the Bible said the Jews would be scattered worldwide and that they later would return to their homeland and have their fortunes restored. This prophecy began to be fulfilled in modern times during the late 1800s when many Jews returned to Israel, from as far away as China and the United States, Russia and South Africa. Israel declared independence in 1948. Today, Israel is among the world's most prosperous countries. In 1999, for example, Israel's per capita Gross Domestic Product was twice as prosperous than the neighboring countries.
- Copyright AboutBibleProphecy.com and 100prophecies.org
Deuteronomy 30:3-5
then the Lord your God will restore your fortunes and have compassion on you and gather you again from all the nations where he scattered you. Even if you have been banished to the most distant land under the heavens, from there the Lord your God will gather you and bring you back. He will bring you to the land that belonged to your fathers, and you will take possession of it. He will make you more prosperous and numerous than your fathers.

N

 

[Atonement]

It's only significant to those that believe in End time Prophecy. To others it's just another year.

 

[carey]

smile

It's only significant to those that believe in End time Prophecy. To others it's just another year.

I posted on the right board then? 8-)

 

[preterist]

Actually its only significant to those who hold the the Jack Van Impe view of prophecy.

 

[carey]

hmmm

Actually its only significant to those who hold the the Jack Van Impe view of prophecy.

I forgot about him.

I have heard many with similar views to his .
Hal Lindsey , Perry Stone, Herbert W. Armstrong, Garner Ted Armstrong,
to name a few.

What is your view?

 

[preterist]

The Israel of the OT is gone forever.

 

[carey]

so god lied??

The Israel of the OT is gone forever.

So your saying god lied here???

GENESIS 17 : 3 Abram fell facedown, and God said to him, 4 "As for me, this is my covenant with you: You will be the father of many nations. 5 No longer will you be called Abram ; your name will be Abraham, [c] for I have made you a father of many nations. 6 I will make you very fruitful; I will make nations of you, and kings will come from you. 7 I will establish my covenant as an ( EVERLASTING )covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you.
8 ( THE WHOLE LAND OF CANNAN)) where you are now an alien, I will give as an ( EVERLASTING POSSESSESSION TO YOU ) and your descendants after you; and I will be their God."

 

[tim-from-pa]

Carey:

I think we talked before on a similar topic. I believe in the "two house" doctrine, so I do not think that Jews returning to the land of Israel is a full fulfillment of Ezekiel 37 just yet. The other stick of those from Israel have to join the Jews yet. My approach sounds similar to Armstrong although I am not from his church.

On a more humorous note, there were many people who claimed to be the lost tribes so that they could rejoin with the Jews in Israel. I remember this brought about the question "Who is the Jew?" in the news a few years back asked by rabbis (don't bother doing an Internet search of that unless you want to be up all night. All sorts of characters title their works the same way).

At the very least, before Israel can be reunited as ONE NATION again in the land, it has to fulfill its Abrahamic covenant as a multitude of people becoming many nations first in another place (Genesis 35:11, Genesis 48:19, 2 Samuel 7:10). I believe bible prophecy makes these people sound like what we now call "Christian nations", or I should say, people in the nations that traditionally embraced Christianity. My doctrine is the same as mainline Christendom, except that I do not believe in spiritual replacement theology where the church took over the role of Israel, but rather these nations are unbeknownst to themselves actual physical seed of Abraham as well as spiritual seed thus becoming a blessing to all nations of the earth.

 

[tim-from-pa]

The Israel of the OT is gone forever.

Then God is a liar. The book of Genesis and much of the other passages of the bible are pretty straight forward regarding Israel as being a nation forever unless you want to tap-dance around those passages and put your own interpretation to them.

As a matter of fact, here is my official statement from my mouth regarding Israel and to those who say they are forever gone:

The Lord who gives the sun for a light by day, the ordinances of the moon and the stars for a light by night, who disturbs the sea, and its waves roar: ONLY If those ordinances depart from before the LORD then the seed of Israel shall also cease from being a nation from before Him. But since we have sun for light, and moon by night, and the seas still roar and have not departed, then Israel must still exist before Him.

 

[Atonement]

preterist, You come here and post a thought with out Scripture, no reference, or no proof. If you read the TOS rules, you will notice and understand that this type of posting is in violation of rule number 4. Which states

4 - No Trolling:

You will not post anything that disrupts the peace and harmony of this forum. Don't make inflammatory remarks just to get a response. This will also include posts that put down Christianity in general or any posts considered as blasphemy by staff (this is a CHRISTIAN FORUMS site).

This type of posting made by you is trolling. I'm only going to ask you once to please use Scripture to back such statements. Otherwise next time a warning will be issued against your membership.

 

[preterist]

Re: so god lied??

So your saying god lied here???

GENESIS 17 : 3 Abram fell facedown, and God said to him, 4 "As for me, this is my covenant with you: You will be the father of many nations. 5 No longer will you be called Abram ; your name will be Abraham, [c] for I have made you a father of many nations. 6 I will make you very fruitful; I will make nations of you, and kings will come from you. 7 I will establish my covenant as an ( EVERLASTING )covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you.
8 ( THE WHOLE LAND OF CANNAN)) where you are now an alien, I will give as an ( EVERLASTING POSSESSESSION TO YOU ) and your descendants after you; and I will be their God."

Gen 17:13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

So is circumcision still commanded today? Or is God a Liar? Perhaps Paul is mis-informed:

Gal 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
Gal 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.


Exo 12:14 And this day shall be unto you for a memorial; and ye shall keep it a feast to the LORD throughout your generations; ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance for ever.

Perhaps we should also keep the feasts. Again is God a liar or is Paul misinformed?

1Co 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
1Co 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

Exo 27:21 In the tabernacle of the congregation without the vail, which is before the testimony, Aaron and his sons shall order it from evening to morning before the LORD: it shall be a statute for ever unto their generations on the behalf of the children of Israel.

Exo 29:9 And you shall gird them with girdles, Aaron and his sons, and bind turbans on them. And the priest's office shall be theirs for an everlasting statute. And you shall consecrate Aaron and his sons.

Doesn’t forever mean forever? Is God a liar? Or is the writer of Hebrews a liar?

Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is of necessity a change made in the law also.
Heb 7:13 For He of whom these things are spoken belongs to another tribe, from which no man gave attendance at the altar.
Heb 7:14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Judah, of which tribe Moses spoke nothing concerning priesthood.
Heb 7:15 And it is still far more evident, since there arises another priest after the likeness of Melchizedek,
Heb 7:16 who is made, not according to the law of a fleshly commandment, but according to the power of an endless life.
Heb 7:17 For He testifies, "You are a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek."
Heb 7:18 For truly there is a putting away of the commandment which went before, because of the weakness and unprofitableness of it.

Exo 29:28 And it shall be Aaron's and his sons' by a statute forever from the sons of Israel. For it is a heave offering. And it shall be a heave offering from the sons of Israel of the sacrifices of their peace offerings, even their heave offering to Jehovah.
Lev 6:18 All the males among the sons of Aaron shall eat of it. It shall be a statute forever in your generations concerning the offerings of Jehovah made by fire. Everyone that touches them shall be holy.

Lev 7:34 For I have taken the breast of the wave offering and the heave shoulder from the sons of Israel, from the sacrifices of their peace offerings,and have given them to Aaron the priest and to his sons by a statute forever from among the sons of Israel.


Lev 10:9 Do not drink wine nor strong drink, neither you nor your sons with you, when you go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest you die, a statute forever throughout your generations.

The writer of Hebrews seems to put a limitation on it:

Heb 9:10 which stood only in meats and drinks, and different kinds of washings and fleshly ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

Shall I continue or is this sufficient to lose the “troll†tag? Just to be safe one more:

Jer 23:39 therefore, behold, I, even I, will completely forget you, and I will forsake you and the city that I gave you and your fathers, and cast you out of My presence.
Jer 23:40 And I will bring an everlasting reproach on you, and a never-ending shame, which shall not be forgotten.

Then God is a liar. The book of Genesis and much of the other passages of the bible are pretty straight forward regarding Israel as being a nation forever unless you want to tap-dance around those passages and put your own interpretation to them.

Then perhaps you should show scripturally where I have erred in those OT passages. Remember, use scripture less you be proven a troll.

preterist, You come here and post a thought with out Scripture, no reference, or no proof. If you read the TOS rules, you will notice and understand that this type of posting is in violation of rule number 4. Which states
Quote:
4 - No Trolling:

You will not post anything that disrupts the peace and harmony of this forum. Don't make inflammatory remarks just to get a response. This will also include posts that put down Christianity in general or any posts considered as blasphemy by staff (this is a CHRISTIAN FORUMS site).


This type of posting made by you is trolling. I'm only going to ask you once to please use Scripture to back such statements. Otherwise next time a warning will be issued against your membership.

I responded to a question as to what my view was, so I answered. I did not violate any rule. I think my views have more to do with the warning than anything else. Just how did I “put down Christianity� Do you equate the pre-mill, pre-trib dispensationalism with Christianity?

The Encyclopedia Brittanica (1973)
'The Jews As A Race: The findings of physical anthropology show that, contrary to the popular view, there is no Jewish race. Anthropornetric measurements of Jewish groups in many parts of the world indicate that they differ greatly from one another with respect to all the important physical characteristics." (vol. 12, page 1054)

Encyclopedia Judaica Jerusalem (1971)
"It is a common assumption, and one that sometimes seems ineradicable even in the face of evidence to the contrary, that the Jews of today constitute a race, a homogeneous entity easily recognizable. From the preceding discussion of the origin and early history of the Jews, it should be clear that in the course of their formation as a people and a nation they had already assimilated a variety of racial strains from people moving into the general area they occupied. This had taken place by interbreeding and then by conversion to Judaism of a considerable number of communities. . . .
"Thus, the diversity of the racial and genetic attributes of various Jewish colonies of today renders any unified racial classification of them a contradiction in terms. Despite this, many people readily accept the notion that they are a distinct race. This is probably reinforced by the fact that some Jews are recognizably different in appearance from the surrounding population. That many cannot be easily identified is overlooked and the stereotype for some is extended to all - a not uncommon phenomenon" (Encyclopedia Judaica Jerusalem, 1971, vol. 3, p. 50).

Encyclopedia Americana (1986)
"Racial and Ethnic Considerations. Some theorists have considered the Jews a distinct race, although this has no factual basis. In every country in which the Jews lived for a considerable time, their physical traits came to approximate those of the indigenous people. Hence the Jews belong to several distinct racial types, ranging, for example, from fair to dark. Among the reasons for this phenomenon are voluntary or involuntary miscegenation and the conversion of Gentiles to Judaism" (Encyclopedia Americana, 1986, vol. 16, p. 71).

Collier's Encyclopedia (1977)
"A common error and persistent modern myth is the designation of the Jews as a 'race! This is scientifically fallacious, from the standpoint of both physical and historical tradition. Investigations by anthropologists have shown that Jews are by no means uniform in physical character and that they nearly always reflect the physical and mental characteristics of the people among whom they five" (Collier's Encyclopedia, 1977, vol. 13, p. 573).
Today, being a Jew simply means that one is of the Judaistic religion or a convert to it, or else in a "brotherhood" of those who are. Therefore, being a Jew has nothing to do with race. We are familiar with a number of notable figures, such as Sammy Davis, Jr., Elizabeth Taylor, and Tom Arnold, in fact, who became Jews by conversion to the religion of Judaism. In fact, one is defined a Jew by legal dispensation or coercion, with race playing no part at all:

Funk and Wagnall's New Encyclopedia (1970)
"In 1970 the Israeli Knesset adopted legislation defining a Jew as one born of a Jewish mother or a convert." (vol. 14, p. 214)

 

[carey]

hmmm

Carey:

I think we talked before on a similar topic. I believe in the "two house" doctrine, so I do not think that Jews returning to the land of Israel is a full fulfillment of Ezekiel 37 just yet. The other stick of those from Israel have to join the Jews yet. My approach sounds similar to Armstrong although I am not from his church.

On a more humorous note, there were many people who claimed to be the lost tribes so that they could rejoin with the Jews in Israel. I remember this brought about the question "Who is the Jew?" in the news a few years back asked by rabbis (don't bother doing an Internet search of that unless you want to be up all night. All sorts of characters title their works the same way).

At the very least, before Israel can be reunited as ONE NATION again in the land, it has to fulfill its Abrahamic covenant as a multitude of people becoming many nations first in another place (Genesis 35:11, Genesis 48:19, 2 Samuel 7:10). I believe bible prophecy makes these people sound like what we now call "Christian nations", or I should say, people in the nations that traditionally embraced Christianity. My doctrine is the same as mainline Christendom, except that I do not believe in spiritual replacement theology where the church took over the role of Israel, but rather these nations are unbeknownst to themselves actual physical seed of Abraham as well as spiritual seed thus becoming a blessing to all nations of the earth.

So I guess you have asked the same question as I have.

What countries have been Israels allies been since 1948??

How in the heck did Israel win the ^ day war in 1967??

Why would they be allied with Israel without an actual strategic military or economic strong tie with Isarel and still ally with Israel??

 

[tim-from-pa]

Preterist:

So let's see.... you have a lot to respond to. Basically you brought up circumcision, feasts, and priesthood.

Let's start with circumcision. The circumcision was a sign of the covenant already made when Paul was talking about the faith of Abraham. This is indisputably proven by what Paul stated in Romans 4:10-12

How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

So you see, the covenant and promises to Abraham, continued on in Isaac, Jacob, and then Joseph/Judah and his sons came before circumcision. Circumcision was man's obedience to God acknowledging the covenant, or like "signing on the dotted line". It has nothing to do with the making or receiving of the covenant.

Feast Days. Some Christian groups DO believe in keeping them and interpret Paul's writings differently. Paul summarized it best by saying that they were "shadows of things to come" but were fulfilled in Christ. I always called them ceremonial events prophetic of things to come. The spring feast were already fulfilled, but the autumn ones have yet to be fulfilled in the Second Coming. So they are NOT done away with.

Lastly, the priesthood. That is reference to the Levitical priesthood pertaining to the Law (old covenant) while the new covenant requires a different order. If the Old Covenant were in effect, the Levites would definitely be very much in power yet. Again, that system of Law was the schoolmaster as Paul taught that brings one to Christ. There was a foreshadowing that the true priesthood would be Christ the King-Priest by Melchizedek when Abraham gave tithes to him. Thus, Levites paid tribute thru Abraham while they were yet in his loins. Again, the covenantal promises to the Israelites starting with Abraham involving land, multitude of people, nations and so forth antedated the priesthood of Levi.

All the points you brought up were ceremonial relating to the covenants, but not the source of them, nor are they needed for God to make those covenants.

 

[Atonement]

preterist

The Israel of the OT is gone forever.

Excuse me for not quoting the statement made by you here. This quote above does infact break TOS. I'm not inclined to care whether or not you believe it breaks TOS. I'm telling you this type of posting is trolling and is breaking the harmony of the OP. Next time please use Scripture to back such statements. You made read the TOS here

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=9219

 

[preterist]

All the points you brought up were ceremonial relating to the covenants, but not the source of them, nor are they needed for God to make those covenants.

And how long were they to last? Check the Hebrew lexicons for the word “forever†and see the definitions.

What did God mean with this statement?

Jer 23:39 therefore, behold, I, even I, will completely forget you, and I will forsake you and the city that I gave you and your fathers, and cast you out of My presence.
Jer 23:40 And I will bring an everlasting reproach on you, and a never-ending shame, which shall not be forgotten.

preterist
Quote:
The Israel of the OT is gone forever.


Excuse me for not quoting the statement made by you here. This quote above does infact break TOS. I'm not inclined to care whether or not you believe it breaks TOS. I'm telling you this type of posting is trolling and is breaking the harmony of the OP. Next time please use Scripture to back such statements. You made read the TOS here

And this is the question to which I responded to:

What is your view?

So I gave an answer. Is an eight word answer to a four word question trolling? I have 136 posts on this forum, why am I now called a troll?

 

[tim-from-pa]

And how long were they to last? Check the Hebrew lexicons for the word “forever†and see the definitions.

Yes, forever means forever, but the order can change (c.f. Col 2:16-17). A mundane example: A chid takes great interest in the stars of the heavens. He says he will study them forever. The heavens represent a covenant and his reaction to them represents the ceremonies. As a kid he used a pinhole box to observe eclipses. As a grown man, he now uses advanced equipment and spectrographs. To an uneducated onlooker, he has stopped what he was doing as a kid, but in fact he has received more revelation and is doing the same thing forever. I am not aware that circumcision, the feasts and the priesthood are done away with, but the manner of their observance has changed. They are still forever.

This is what it means when Hebrews says: God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son....

As God revealed His purpose more and more, the manner of observance changed.

The covenant is the "what", and don't confuse that with the "how".

As for Jeremiah 23,that passage sounds similar to all the cursings in Leviticus 26 prophesied before Jeremiah. yet in all that cursing, we find it concluding with this....

And that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity: Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land.

Now, unless you want to claim the bible contradicts itself, what are we to do with that passage?

Forever, and perpetual mean just that, until the order may change, so it is perpetual throughout the generations, just as the young boy said he will study the stars "forever" but one day he dies.

I cannot convince you that Israel exists or that Jesus is the Messiah. You have to decide these two things for yourself. But I do believe the bible answers the questions you brought up adequately IMO. If people can believe the mundane example, I wonder why the scriptural is not accepted unless there is more to it than misunderstanding it?

 

[preterist]

Yes, forever means forever, but the order can change (c.f. Col 2:16-17).

So then, the shadows are not forever.

I am not aware that circumcision, the feasts and the priesthood are done away with, but the manner of their observance has changed. They are still forever.

So circumcision shall go on forever?

Gal 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
Gal 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

And that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity: Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land.

Now, unless you want to claim the bible contradicts itself, what are we to do with that passage?

Read it again, it seems to be conditional on obedience.

Forever, and perpetual mean just that, until the order may change

That’s right. You are making my point.

just as the young boy said he will study the stars "forever" but one day he dies.

So “forever†is to be interpreted in context. In this case, “forever†is the lifetime of the boy.

I cannot convince you that Israel exists or that Jesus is the Messiah.

I deny neither. I do deny OT Israel exists. Do you have evidence that those living in modern Israel are the offspring of the OT Jews to whom the promises were given?

Gal 3:28 There cannot be Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is no male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise.

If the Land was theirs forever, then why did they not possess in for over 1900 years? So forever does not also mean continual? They will have the land one day and be taken from them the next, but it is still forever? Seems to me if they do not possess it it is not theirs.

 

[tim-from-pa]

I deny neither. I do deny OT Israel exists. Do you have evidence that those living in modern Israel are the offspring of the OT Jews to whom the promises were given?

Well then, if you want to believe that the Israelites of the OT are gone in the sense that they don't celebrate the same way, they dress differently, and act like any modern person, I agree.

However, in spite of that, the past Israelites were the progenitors of the present day ones, and although they comb their hair differently, or whatever, the promises still remain that they are to inherit the land of Canaan, they were/are to become a multitude and become many nations.

As for proving whether or not present day Israelites are descended from Abraham, I do have a genealogy of the Kings of Israel (since I am into genealogy) to the present date and it is to my satisfaction, but I doubt it would be to yours. That's the thing with genealogy. It's the most "exact- inexact" science there is. Someone had to be a father which is exact, but we just cannot prove who so it seems inexact.

Historically, I also believe in the migrations of the house of Israel based on historical/archeological evidence. E. Raymond Capt has interesting books out regarding the migrations of Israel, as he was an practicing and recognized archeologist for 40 years. Again, that is satisfactory to me as I am not one to sweep things under the rug by a preconceived notion on my part. However, Capt's work (and similar ones) are not to to par of those wanting to be critical---- what's interesting is I have yet to really hear a viable alternative explanation both to his works, and the promises of God in the bible.

I thought from the get-go that you meant that Israelites as a people exist nowhere. It seems to me that you just mean they are changed in some fashion.

 

[preterist]

the promises still remain that they are to inherit the land of Canaan, they were/are to become a multitude and become many nations.

This was fulfilled:

Jos 11:4 And they went out, they and all their hosts with them, much people, even as the sand that is upon the sea shore in multitude, with horses and chariots very many.

2Ch 1:9 Now, O LORD God, let thy promise unto David my father be established: for thou hast made me king over a people like the dust of the earth in multitude.

1Ki 4:20 Judah and Israel were many, as the sand which is by the sea in multitude, eating and drinking, and making merry.

Do you really think a piece of land is the purpose of God's work through the ages?

Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
Heb 11:9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
Heb 11:10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
Heb 11:11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
Heb 11:12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Heb 11:14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
Heb 11:15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

As for proving whether or not present day Israelites are descended from Abraham, I do have a genealogy of the Kings of Israel (since I am into genealogy) to the present date and it is to my satisfaction, but I doubt it would be to yours. That's the thing with genealogy. It's the most "exact- inexact" science there is. Someone had to be a father which is exact, but we just cannot prove who so it seems inexact.

All the genealogical records were kept in the Temple. The Temple was destroyed in AD70. It is highly doubtful anyone can trace their lineage back to the 1st century, not to mention back to Abraham. Most in modern Israel are offspring of people who converted to Judaism in the latter part of the first millennium. They have no connection to OT Israel except a perverted form of Judaism. In fact, most in Israel today are atheists and agnostics.

I looks as if we will never agree on this. The lineage is irrelevant whether it can be traced or not. God’s purpose was never about physical lineage but was about faith. The OT contained physical types and shadows that pointed to spiritual realities of the New Covenant. God was done with the types and shadows of the Old Covenant when the New Covenant was established. All who are in Christ are the seed of Abraham:


Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Historically, I also believe in the migrations of the house of Israel based on historical/archeological evidence.

The House of Israel is who Christ came for:

Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
Mat 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

The New Covenant was made with both the House of Judea and the House of Israel:

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Is this still future? Is the New Covenant not here? Charles Ryrie in his study Bible says this is still future. If the New Covenant is not here, just exactly how are we saved?

Again, that is satisfactory to me as I am not one to sweep things under the rug by a preconceived notion on my part.

There seem to be many things under that rug.

I thought from the get-go that you meant that Israelites as a people exist nowhere.

That is what I meant. Even those in Israel do not consider themselves Israelities.

 

[tim-from-pa]

You're right. We'll never agree because I look at what God said in His Word altogether differently than you do. You seem to disregard actual physical promises in favor of a spiritual interpretation and fulfillment. But no matter what the bible says regarding Israel and actual, earthly promises, you will always claim they have been fulfilled and that's good enough for you, hence your name.

If that's the case, there's no room for any future in anything any more. What's the relevance of the bible today then? Might as well play golf instead of going to church.

God’s purpose was never about physical lineage but was about faith.

Then pray about that to God tonight. He wasted a lot of time with genealogy in the bible if it does not play into His purpose (i.e. family). His whole plan started with Adam and Eve, and had Adam not sinned and taken from that tree of life, we would all be one in Adam as spiritual sons of God and yes, they would have reproduced and have families. But what the hey? The next poster will probably come along and ask "What is a family?" Johnny now has two mommies or whatever. When Satan redefined the family, the whole understanding of spirituality went out of the window and then you hear all kinds of perverted doctrine. Shows my age.