Bible Study 1John 3:9 - What does it mean?

[bcbsr]

1John 3:
9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.
10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.

What does verse 9 means? Just for starters, the fact that verse 10 indicates that verse 9 is something visible, even measureable to the point of distinguishing children of God from children of the devil eliminates interpretations like this is referring to something merely internal to those born of God.

Nor is it referring to perfect behavior, as 1John 2:1;1:8,10; not to mention Gal 5:17 all indicate those born of God will sin from time to time.

What I find interesting about 1John is that in the Greek whenever John is referring to lifestyle he uses the present tense. And whenever John is referring to a snapshot event, or a behavior uncharacteristic of the person, he uses the aorist (which we don't have in English and so you lose something in the translation).

In this case John is saying that sinning is uncharacteristic of those born of God, not denying that it doesn't occur uncharactertically from time to time. Those born of God don't live a lifestyle of sin. And this is a distinguishing mark of those born of God. Thus when Paul says, "Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God." 1Cor 6:9,10 it is not that salvation is contingent upon one's behavior, but rather that there simply doesn't exists any such person who lives a lifestyle of sin who has been born of God.

 

[th1b.taylor]

bcbsr,
Looks like you have a very firm grip on the matter! The verse does describe someone like me, that's for sure and that others reading this string I'll use my conversion for an example of what you have described. When I was a Lost Man, I planned all, work, week long to be on stage in a Juke Joint to impress some young lady to go home with me. I planned to sin.

Now that I am a Saved Man I am not only not on that stage singing, I do not even pull into the Parking Lot of a club to turn around. I am not perfect yet and I will stumble from time to time but I never plan to sin any more.

God bless brother.

 

[Chopper]

There is a difference between "cannot sin" and a life style of sin. All Christians sin once in awhile, so "cannot sin" is only applicable to Jesus. Just as bcbsr so wonderfully stated in his OP, a lifestyle of sin exposes a person who has not met and believed on the Son of God for Salvation.

I'm so happy to see you more involved in CF.net. I have always enjoyed your responses, my wonderful Brother "Dan the Man"!

 

[jocor]

What I find interesting about 1John is that in the Greek whenever John is referring to lifestyle he uses the present tense. And whenever John is referring to a snapshot event, or a behavior uncharacteristic of the person, he uses the aorist (which we don't have in English and so you lose something in the translation).

In this case John is saying that sinning is uncharacteristic of those born of God, not denying that it doesn't occur uncharactertically from time to time. Those born of God don't live a lifestyle of sin. And this is a distinguishing mark of those born of God. Thus when Paul says, "Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God." 1Cor 6:9,10 it is not that salvation is contingent upon one's behavior, but rather that there simply doesn't exists any such person who lives a lifestyle of sin who has been born of God.

I agree. I believe the passage refers to those who practice sin or have become servants of sin rather than those who do YHWH's will, but slip up occasionally.

 

[Chopper]

bcbsr,
Looks like you have a very firm grip on the matter! The verse does describe someone like me, that's for sure and that others reading this string I'll use my conversion for an example of what you have described. When I was a Lost Man, I planned all, work, week long to be on stage in a Juke Joint to impress some young lady to go home with me. I planned to sin.

Now that I am a Saved Man I am not only not on that stage singing, I do not even pull into the Parking Lot f a club to turn around. I am not perfect yet and I will stumble from time to time but I never plan to sin any more.

God bless brother.

I like a humble "dried out old corn cob". Bill, you are a great friend and instructor in the matchless Word of the Living God. I'm so very glad that we met here at this Forum, I have received precious instruction from what you have learned from the gifts that the Holy Spirit has implanted in your heart and mind for others to be blessed, like me!

Thru all the pain and confinement to a wheel chair, you are a huge example to me and others that, in spite of the tragedies of life, we can get up, conquer the pity parties, and be a true servant/warrior of our Commander in Chief, Christ Jesus. I am stating this, not to inflate your ego, just to speak the truth when I see a man who has been hit by the torments of this life, this side of Glory and presence of Jesus. I salute you my special friend for your courage under fire! AMEN & AMEN!!

 

[bcbsr]

Just my guess. I maybe wrong.

Verse 9 Bearing witness to Christ, and giving an example once one is washed clean in Christ they cannot sin because they have been born again so God does not see there sin anymore.

Verse 10 Shows both commandments Christ gave, the text is saying "do what is right". That is Love God and love your neighbour.

But verse 10 is not telling how God knows, but how WE identify children of God and distinguish them from children of the devil. So I wouldn't interpret vs 9 as simply saying the God doesn't see sin in those born of God.

 

[bcbsr]

There is a difference between "cannot sin" and a life style of sin. All Christians sin once in awhile, so "cannot sin" is only applicable to Jesus. Just as bcbsr so wonderfully stated in his OP, a lifestyle of sin exposes a person who has not met and believed on the Son of God for Salvation.

I'm so happy to see you more involved in CF.net. I have always enjoyed your responses, my wonderful Brother "Dan the Man"!

My point was with regards to the verbs is that while the English translations seems ambiguous, the Greek has a nuance with regards to the distinction between present and aorist. The verb "sin" in "cannot sin" is in the present, speaking not of an occasional event, but rather that which is characteristic of a person, of which I use the word "lifestyle".

 

[LovethroughDove]

2 Corinthians 3:18 And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.

The children of God will have the fruit of the Spirit.
Galatians 5:22-23.......right above that is acts of sinful nature

 

[LovethroughDove]

which I use the word "lifestyle".

If you are using the word lifestyle, as in it is a part of you that you love and cherish. Those who have been born into the family of God don't love the sin that they had before they were born of the Holy Spirit. If you have the Holy Spirit, sin is gonna get kicked in the butt.

 

[Deborah13]

I think one needs to be very careful in judging their brothers and sisters in Christ by 1,2, and 3 John teachings. If one fails to understand that John is teaching against false teachers and false doctrines, such as those of the gnostic type, which taught a lifestyle of licentiousness, they may assume that the person who is truly born of God, who has some continuing problem in their life is not born of God, or that one who has backslidden for some reason, is not born of God.
imo,
Just like Saul we can be over zealous in our love for God and end up harming God's little ones.
My sign would say, "Proceed with caution." in judging others salvation.

I do not speak here as a woman who has not consulted Godly men's writings. In relation to the backslidden both Charles Spurgeon, Calvinist, and Adam Clarke, Arminian, teach caution in judging them as being unsaved, not born of God. And both speak about the struggles of the battles some face during their sanctification process.

 

[Malachi]

I think one needs to be very careful in judging their brothers and sisters in Christ by 1,2, and 3 John teachings.

If we eliminate the word "judging" (since we are not judges) and insert the word "assessing" then Christians have every right to assess their brothers and sisters. Indeed the Word commands us to separate ourselves from those who deliberately sin and fail to repent, which means that we would have had to assess these Christians first.

If one fails to understand that John is teaching against false teachers and false doctrines, such as those of the gnostic type, which taught a lifestyle of licentiousness,...

Once again we have this idea of limiting Scripture to the first century and the apostolic churches and false doctrine when there is no warrant for that whatsoever. The epistles of John are for all believers, and while he does address the Gnostics and those who deny the Deity of Christ, the instructions about sin are for all believers. A saint who keeps on sinning is not a genuine saint.

The bottom line is that Christ requires Christians to turn away from sins and idols and to stop sinning habitually. Those who were drunkards are commanded to stop their drunkenness. Those who were fornicators are commanded to stop their fornication. And we could make an entire list from the Gospels and epistles.

This does not mean that every child of God is sinless and cannot fall. Indeed we are to examine ourselves daily and deal with our sins of omission and commission daily. As long as we have the "flesh" within, we have to deal with sin within, and particularly before we come to the Lord's Table (1 Cor 11:28-34).

 

[ezrider]

1John 3:
9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.
10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.

What does verse 9 means? Just for starters, the fact that verse 10 indicates that verse 9 is something visible, even measureable to the point of distinguishing children of God from children of the devil eliminates interpretations like this is referring to something merely internal to those born of God.

Nor is it referring to perfect behavior, as 1John 2:1;1:8,10; not to mention Gal 5:17 all indicate those born of God will sin from time to time.

What I find interesting about 1John is that in the Greek whenever John is referring to lifestyle he uses the present tense. And whenever John is referring to a snapshot event, or a behavior uncharacteristic of the person, he uses the aorist (which we don't have in English and so you lose something in the translation).

In this case John is saying that sinning is uncharacteristic of those born of God, not denying that it doesn't occur uncharactertically from time to time. Those born of God don't live a lifestyle of sin. And this is a distinguishing mark of those born of God. Thus when Paul says, "Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God." 1Cor 6:9,10 it is not that salvation is contingent upon one's behavior, but rather that there simply doesn't exists any such person who lives a lifestyle of sin who has been born of God.

What John is describing here is not about the "act of sin" that so many like to glory upon, nor is it about choosing a lifestyle of sin. For the eyes of my flesh would tell me that the gay couple has chosen a lifestyle of sin; but that would make me a hypocrite, for I too have chosen a lifestyle, as have all the rest of you, that the accuser certainly could expose as a "lifestyle of sin." Sin is in the flesh, and the flesh is sin. The Lord has created me this way for his purpose, and since I can not separate myself from my own body, then I must accept the condition I find myself in and what the Lord would have me learn from it rather than fight it.

The enemy has done a good job keeping your attention focused on the sins of the flesh, for it is the knowledge of those sins in the flesh that separates you from, or rather causes you to separate yourself and hide from the presence of Lord. The scripture is pretty clear that Jesus did not come to destroy sin, Jesus came to destroy the power of sin; And the power of sin is death. It is the power of sin that we overcome through Christ, not the actual physical act of committing that sin.

1 Peter 3:21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

The continuing to sin that John is referring to when he says that no one born of God will continue to sin is talking about legal standing. That legal standing is bound to the covenant that you choose to walk under. If you continue in sin, then you have placed yourself under the covenant of law of the which gives sin and death its legal standing and power. If you are born again, then you are not under the old covenant of the law of sin, but rather you are in the perfect law of liberty in Christ, and a law unto Grace rather than sin.

1 Corinthians 9:12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

Romans 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law)

1 Corinthians 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

1 John 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

If you have received the Grace of God and have accepted the forgiveness found in Christ and then pass on that same grace and forgiveness to others, deserved or undeserved, then you are showing the fruits of the Spirit and the righteousness found in Christ. But if you worry about what might be a sin or what might not be a sin, or if you go to the law as justification for accusing someone else of a sin, then you have declared yourself to be under the same law of sin that you use to accuse the other person of failing to uphold. Judge not, lest you be judged; for in the same manner that you judge, so shall you be judged.

1 Corinthians 9:9-10 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Many go about the works of the law trying not to commit sin that they may present themselves holy before God, hoping to inherit the Kingdom. But that is not my hope, that by my works I should inherit the Kingdom; but that is what those who continue to fear the power of sin worry about, that they might not inherit the kingdom if they are found with sin. But since I have stated that continuing in sin is not about the act, but rather the legal standing, then I might remind you that by law the inheritance went to the "first born." Since Jesus is the First Born, and an inheritance is typically passed on after death, then Christ has already inherited the Kingdom of Heaven as well as the kingdoms of this worlds. The inheritance of the Kingdom belongs to Christ, and none other, the inheritance that the Lord has promised to us, is that we shall inherit Christ. And through Christ, we shall posses all that He has inherited.

 

[Deborah13]

If we eliminate the word "judging" (since we are not judges) and insert the word "assessing" then Christians have every right to assess their brothers and sisters.

Never said they didn't.

Once again we have this idea of limiting Scripture to the first century and the apostolic churches and false doctrine when there is no warrant for that whatsoever.

Hardly, the same nonsense is taught today by some and always has been.

The bottom line is that Christ requires Christians to turn away from sins and idols and to stop sinning habitually.

Never said it doesn't.

P.S. What is unclear about "Proceed with Caution" in judging someone's Salvation?

 

[Chopper]

My point was with regards to the verbs is that while the English translations seems ambiguous, the Greek has a nuance with regards to the distinction between present and aorist. The verb "sin" in "cannot sin" is in the present, speaking not of an occasional event, but rather that which is characteristic of a person, of which I use the word "lifestyle".

Understood.

 

[JLB]

he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.

Can not go on, which means can not continue.... Indicates there is a continuing work of transformation that expresses itself by doing what is right.

By saying seed... The Holy Spirit is indicating a process of becoming...the righteousness of God in Christ.

A seed most go through this process to become a tree that bears fruit.

Paul says it this way -

For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. 2 Corinthians 5:21

"might become" indicates there is a process...


JLB

 

[Deborah13]

For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. 2 Corinthians 5:21

"might become" indicates there is a process...

2Co 5:20 in behalf of Christ, then, we are ambassadors, as if God were calling through us, we beseech, in behalf of Christ, `Be ye reconciled to God;'
2Co 5:21 for him who did not know sin, in our behalf He did make sin, that we may become the righteousness of God in him. [righteous = justified]

I don't believe anyone has left this earth to receive eternal life, that have been justified by anything they have done other than 'being reconciled to God'. reconciled = to change mutually
The Christ became a sin-offering for us [the reconciliation - His part] when we receive this offering for ourselves [the reconciliation - our part] there is an exchange of justification. An atonement if you will.
The picture of the sin-offering in the OT is the perfect picture of what occurs.
One of our pastor members gave a lovely picture of this exchange in a thread a couple of years ago now, I believe.

Why is it in future tense? Because Paul was/is appealing to those who had not reconciled themselves to God and received the sin-offering for themselves. Therefore, they are not yet justified.

 

[JLB]

2Co 5:20 in behalf of Christ, then, we are ambassadors, as if God were calling through us, we beseech, in behalf of Christ, `Be ye reconciled to God;'
2Co 5:21 for him who did not know sin, in our behalf He did make sin, that we may become the righteousness of God in him. [righteous = justified]

I don't believe anyone has left this earth to receive eternal life, that have been justified by anything they have done other than 'being reconciled to God'. reconciled = to change mutually
The Christ became a sin-offering for us [the reconciliation - His part] when we receive this offering for ourselves [the reconciliation - our part] there is an exchange of justification. An atonement if you will.
The picture of the sin-offering in the OT is the perfect picture of what occurs.
One of our pastor members gave a lovely picture of this exchange in a thread a couple of years ago now, I believe.

Why is it in future tense? Because Paul was/is appealing to those who had not reconciled themselves to God and received the sin-offering for themselves. Therefore, they are not yet justified.

Where is the process of transformation in your doctrine? The conforming to His Image process?

I don't see any mention of it.

And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God. Romans 12:2

and again -

For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Romans 8:29]


Where is the maturing and growing up into Him, process in your theology Deb?

11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers,
12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,
13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;
14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting,
15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head--Christ--
Ephesians 4:11-15


The process of the seed, is the process of growing and maturing... first the blade, then the head, after that the full grain in the head.


This understanding of the seed, is what John is conveying here...

9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

It is this idea of the seed, which can be likened to the seed of righteousness, that will have it's process of transformation in the born again believer.

The fruit of righteousness, like any other fruit begins with a seed.

Now may He who supplies seed to the sower, and bread for food, supply and multiply the seed you have sown and increase the fruits of your righteousness, 2 Corinthians 9:10


In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. 1 John 3:10


It is this very hope of the righteous of Christ that we are eagerly waiting for.


For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. Galatians 5:5


JLB

 

[Deborah13]

Where is the process of transformation in your doctrine? The conforming to His Image process?

In the sanctification, by the Holy Spirit, that happens after we receive justification, by being reconciled to God, through the Messiah's sin-offering of Himself. We are sanctified by this same sin-offering because we receive the Holy Spirit, then.
EDIT: this is the process that you speak of..

 

[JLB]

In the sanctification, by the Holy Spirit, that happens after we receive justification, by being reconciled to God, through the Messiah's sin-offering of Himself. We are sanctified by this same sin-offering because we receive the Holy Spirit, then.
EDIT: this is the process that you speak of..

I see no work of transformation in your doctrine Deb.

It's as if you assume, we are the full measure of maturity, as some as we are born again.

The scriptures are clear about the growth of the believer, and the Increase of righteousness as we grow up into Him.

We have been called to become the righteousness of God in Christ.

We have been called to become sons of God. John 1:12

Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 1 John 3:7


JLB

 

[Deborah13]

I see no work of transformation in your doctrine Deb.

What is sanctification?