2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5; what is coming?

[chessman]

All you have to do then, is prove from the scriptures that Jesus gave them power from some "other" spirit, than the Holy Spirit.

You're still inserting "Spirit" into a passage that never even uses the word "spirit". I know exactly what "power" He gave them. Matthew says what it was He gave them on that occasion:

Matthew 10:1, 7 (NASB) Jesus summoned His twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every kind of disease and every kind of sickness. ...
And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ ​

The very Word of God. The Jewish leaders had already tasted and been enlightened to this Word given through Isaiah.

Matthew 3:2-3 (NASB) “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” For this is the one referred to by Isaiah the prophet when he said,

“The voice of one crying in the wilderness, ‘Make ready the way of the Lord, Make His paths straight!’” ​

Yet, they crucifed to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

Isaiah 66:2 (NASB) “For My hand made all these things, Thus all these things came into being,” declares the Lord. “But to this one I will look, To him who is humble and contrite of spirit, and who trembles at My word.​

They simply and clearly did NOT tremble at His Word. Nor did they believe Jesus was Christ (Messiah) the very Son of God. Creator of Heaven and Earth:

Daniel 2:37 (NASB) You, O king, are the king of kings, to whom the God of heaven has given the kingdom, the power, the strength and the glory; ​

Even though the ones that crucifed Christ should have recognized Him for who He is, they failed to.

Why? Because they had not "received the Holy Spirit". They simply tasted Him through God's Word in the prophets they recited daily, were enlightened to Him through John the Baptist and looked Christ squarely in the eyes and crucified Him and put Him to open shame.

For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it,

Since you prefer to leave your case weak and not answer my question about those that crucifed the Son of God (were they saved?) here's another one about this passage:
So the "earth" that drinks in the rain that often comes upon it is saved ("receives the Holy Spirit" in your opinion?

 

[Nathan]

What blows me away is that the Jews of Jesus day did the very same thing people are doing right now.

They 'thought' that because they were sons of Abraham then God's promises were on them. After all, God cannot lie. God promised to always be with Abraham and his descendants. Sounds like a sound promise to me. There were no strings attached when He made the promise right? Oh, I guess there was one, the male had to be circumcised. But that's it right? No other strings attached. Be an heir of Abraham, and be circumcised.

Gen 17:9-14
And God said to Abraham, “As for you, you shall keep my covenant, you and your offspring after you throughout their generations.
This is my covenant, which you shall keep, between me and you and your offspring after you: Every male among you shall be circumcised.
You shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskins, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between me and you. He who is eight days old among you shall be circumcised. Every male throughout your generations, whether born in your house or bought with your money from any foreigner who is not of your offspring, both he who is born in your house and he who is bought with your money, shall surely be circumcised. So shall my covenant be in your flesh an everlasting covenant. Any uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin shall be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.”

So did they not have ample right to the covenant of God as long as they were an heir of Abraham and were circumcised?

Ah, one would think wouldn't they. If they just used that one passage for proof text. But turn the page and look at the next chapter.

Gen 18:17-19
The LORD said, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do, seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him? For I have chosen him, that he may command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing righteousness and justice, so that the LORD may bring to Abraham what he has promised him.”

Interesting, there is more to it. We don't read this in the original covenant, back in chapter 17.

And again, go to chapter 26 and read about the covenant that God made with Abraham, which He is now confirming with Isaac. Not the same you read in 17. Interesting.

You find this through the whole Bible. Why? Because, the covenant is guaranteed through the seed(singular), which is Christ. So, those with faith in Christ are apart of the Covenant. The Jews did not grasp this. Why? They 'thought' they were smart by proof texting Genesis chapter 17, after all, God cannot lie.

John the Baptist set them straight though;

Mat 3:7-10
But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bear fruit in keeping with repentance. And do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father,’ for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children for Abraham. Even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees. Every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

They were more concerned with the promise than with the One who made the promise. Much like people are today.

 

[chessman]

They were more concerned with the promise than with the One who made the promise.

Hebrews 6:4-6 (NASB) For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. ​

Do you think those that crucifed the Son of God and put Him to open shame were saved?

 

[Nathan]

Hebrews 6:4-6 (NASB) For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. ​

Do you think those that crucifed the Son of God and put Him to open shame were saved?

Depends, who do you consider crucified Jesus?

 

[Nathan]

Depends, who do you consider crucified Jesus?

I do not mean this as a trick question. Point being. If you speak of the the people who nailed Him to the cross, or the ones who put Him before Pilate, then no - I do not believe they had faith(were saved) in Christ.

However, we know that Jesus said;

Jhn 10:17-18
For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father.

Hebrews is speaking of how the crucifixion of Christ was placed on our account.

Col 1:19-23
For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross. And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him, if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.

Hebrews is stating, that those who turn from the faith completely, would then have to turn around and be reconciled once again - by His death on the cross - which would be "crucifying to themselves once again the Son of God".

The only way to be reconciled to God is by the death of Christ on the cross - the crucifixion.

 

[Jim Parker]

So I asked for some Biblically based evidence for your claim:

The answer is linguistic, not theological.

Then I showed Biblically that none of His disciples had "received" the Holy Spirit until Jesus "gave" them the Holy Spirit after His resurrection.

Yes you did.
And you were 100% correct.
And what you showed was totally irrelevant to the point.
When the Holy Spirit was given has absolutely NOTHING to do with the meaning of the word "partake."

 

[Jim Parker]

Instead of falsely charging others with ignoring things,

You consistently ignore or "scramble" every bit of scripture that clearly refutes your views.
There is nothing false in that statement.

 

[OzSpen]

You consistently ignore or "scramble" every bit of scripture that clearly refutes your views.
There is nothing false in that statement.

Jim,

One of the clearest examples of someone chosen by God but in the end was damned, is Judas Iscariot.

Luke 6:12-16 (ESV) states:

12 In these days he went out to the mountain to pray, and all night he continued in prayer to God. 13 And when day came, he called his disciples and chose from them twelve, whom he named apostles: 14 Simon, whom he named Peter, and Andrew his brother, and James and John, and Philip, and Bartholomew, 15 and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon who was called the Zealot, 16 and Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor.​

However, where did Judas Iscariot end up?

While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled (John 17:12 ESV).​

There's the progression for Judas Iscariot: Chosen --> guarded --> destruction (damnation).

No matter how one wants to construe 'chosen', the fact is that Jesus chose Judas Iscariot to be one of his disciples. Then Judas, the treasurer, chose to betray Jesus, hanged himself (Matt 27:5 ESV) and was damned to destruction.

See the article, 'Judas Iscariot: From Apostle to Apostate', Wayne Jackson.

Oz

 

[Jim Parker]

While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled (John 17:12 ESV).

Exactly.
Judas was LOST.
He was on of the 12 people out of the many billions of people who have lived who was chosen to be an apostle by God the word and to be personally taught by God the word and he was LOST.

iakov the fool

 

[OzSpen]

I admit, I do not comprehend your concern, but Jesus spoke to a much simpler people (me) than the super educated (you). He spoke in fact, that even the simple minded could understand and be saved when they hear the message. It's just not as complicated as you and so many want to make it and He did not use a simile, a smile, perhaps, but it is not a thing where one must have a Bachelors Degree to understand. And that I have chosen to believe God just as my children believed me when they were young, please, what is the rub?

No mate! I learned about figures of speech such as simile, metaphor, and hyperbole in primary school. They are for young children to understand.

Why is it important to comprehend the meaning of figures of speech? It's because of the meaning of figure of speech, which is a word or phrase that means other than the literal understanding.

Imagine not understanding a figure of speech when Jesus said, 'I am the door'?

What is the rub? You have committed the poisoning the well logical fallacy.

You have poisoned my comments by dumbing down academic qualifications. That is erroneous reasoning.

In Matt 18:3 (ESV), Jesus said: 'Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven'. He did not say, 'Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become ... children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven'. You and I do not have to become children to enter God's kingdom. We need to become 'like children' in our understanding. 'Like children' cannot be understood as literal 'children' because I CANNOT become a child again.

What's a simile? It is 'a figure of speech in which two unlike things are explicitly compared, as in “she is like a rose' (dictionary.com 2017. s v simile). In Matt 18:3 (ESV) the metaphor is 'you and I must become like children' - NOT, 'you and I must become children'.

It's important to separate the literal meaning from the meanings of figures of speech. It's critical for biblical interpretation. When Jesus said, 'You are the light of the world', did he mean, 'You are lights, LED lights'?

Oz

 

[th1b.taylor]

No mate! I learned about figures of speech such as simile, metaphor, and hyperbole in primary school. They are for young children to understand.

Why is it important to comprehend the meaning of figures of speech? It's because of the meaning of figure of speech, which is a word or phrase that means other than the literal understanding.

Imagine not understanding a figure of speech when Jesus said, 'I am the door'?

What is the rub? You have committed the poisoning the well logical fallacy.

You have poisoned my comments by dumbing down academic qualifications. That is erroneous reasoning.

In Matt 18:3 (ESV), Jesus said: 'Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven'. He did not say, 'Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become ... children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven'. You and I do not have to become children to enter God's kingdom. We need to become 'like children' in our understanding. 'Like children' cannot be understood as literal 'children' because I CANNOT become a child again.

What's a simile? It is 'a figure of speech in which two unlike things are explicitly compared, as in “she is like a rose' (dictionary.com 2017. s v simile). In Matt 18:3 (ESV) the metaphor is 'you and I must become like children' - NOT, 'you and I must become children'.

It's important to separate the literal meaning from the meanings of figures of speech. It's critical for biblical interpretation. When Jesus said, 'You are the light of the world', did he mean, 'You are lights, LED lights'?

Oz

Look, I have apent better than 66of my years educating myself and you being condescending and pretending I'm dumb and in need 0of an education will not get you mentioned in my book, I despise Condescending braggarts. God wrote His Book to be understood by a people that were never sophisticated and most of that day were illiterate but though they might never read the Scrolls, but when they were read aloud, the Words weresimple and they understood. cleary. You are being a College Nerd Type when you wat the Bible to be understood as if it were written by a bunch of scholars, the disciples, eleven of them were unschooled Fishermen. God likes simple people, people that approach Him as little children. That cannot be refuted!

 

[chessman]

If you speak of the the people who nailed Him to the cross, or the ones who put Him before Pilate, then no - I do not believe they had faith(were saved) in Christ.

I speak of the Bible's answer to who crucifed the Son of God and put him to open shame. And yes, they were not saved (Godless and had no faith in Christ, the Son of God).

Acts 2:22-23 (NASB) “Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know— this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death. ​

Hebrews is stating, that those who turn from the faith completely,

Do you realize how utterly contradictory it is to point to a passage that clearly speaks of men unsaved, unbelievers in Christ (godless in fact) as teaching about loss of salvation?

 

[Jim Parker]

you being condescending and pretending I'm dumb and in need 0of an education will not get you mentioned in my book, I despise Condescending braggarts.......You are being a College Nerd Type

Your being pretty harsh there, bro.
Totally unnecessary.
You seem to be having a bad day.

 

[Nathan]

I speak of the Bible's answer to who crucifed the Son of God and put him to open shame. And yes, they were not saved (Godless and had no faith in Christ, the Son of God).

Acts 2:22-23 (NASB) “Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know— this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death. ​

Do you realize how utterly contradictory it is to point to a passage that clearly speaks of men unsaved, unbelievers in Christ (godless in fact) as teaching about loss of salvation?

I'm not drawing the connection here. I agree the men who physically crucified Christ, and the ones who gave Him up, were not anywhere close to having faith in Christ.

What's that got to do with Hebrews 6?

 

[th1b.taylor]

deleted

 

[chessman]

You made the unsubstantiated statement:
"Whether one "partakes" of the Holy Spirit or one "partners" with the Holy Spirit, they must "receive" the holy Spirit in order to do so."

So I asked for some Biblically based evidence for your claim:.

The answer is linguistic, not theological

Then nevermind. We are posting in the Theology forum.

When the Holy Spirit was given has absolutely NOTHING to do with the meaning of the word "partake."

Heb 6:4-6 says that those who crucifed the Son of God and put Him to open shame were made "partakers of the Holy Spirit" not 'receivers of the Holy Spirit'. There is a difference that some desire to make into no difference.

Hebrews 6:4-6 (NASB) For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. ​

 

[chessman]

I'm not drawing the connection here

Hebrews 6:4-6 (NASB) For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.​

The "they", "those" and "themselves" in this passage are unsaved men, per your own admission. You do the connection. [without bias]

 

[MarkT]

I said this:
"The only question is where does the Bible address how anyone who has been sealed can be unsealed (removal of the Holy Spirit).

I don't understand how this relates to my comment.


And v.13-14 are a promise of God for the day of redemption.


Is this really a claim that God will lie and not carry out His promises??? That's what it appears to me. And you've misunderstood Matt 24:22.


Nothing here about God going back on ANY of His promises.


Yes, many will fall away. Yet, God's promise is that those "having believed, ARE sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit, a guarantee for the day of redemption."

Jesus is our highest authority.
Mark 13:13
and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved. That is the word of God. That's who will be saved.

If you think Paul, the apostle of Jesus Christ, said something different, then you are mistaken.

Consider the Jews who had believed in Jesus and then a few minutes later they wanted to stone him. John 8:31-59 You can be sure salvation is a 'to the end' thing. It's not some momentary belief that saves. God isn't going to let the devil's children sneak into his kingdom, and that's what they were. No. Genuine faith is required, and that's why it is by faith. We live by faith. We are saved by faith. Eph. 2:8

It's 'he who endures to the end will be saved'.

 

[Jim Parker]

Then nevermind. We are posting in the Theology forum.

And the theological point in question was one of language.

Heb 6:4-6 says that those who crucifed the Son of God and put Him to open shame were made "partakers of the Holy Spirit" not 'receivers of the Holy Spirit'. There is a difference that some desire to make into no difference.

And there you go again talking about "partaking" and "receiving."
Make up your mind.
Do you want to talk about the meaning of the word (linguistics) or not?
You can't have it both ways.
Make you your minds.

 

[Jim Parker]

It's 'he who endures to the end will be saved'.

And, by implication, He who does NOT endure to the end will NOT be saved.

iakov the fool