2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5; what is coming?

[Nathan]

Hebrews 6:4-6 (NASB) For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.​

The "they", "those" and "themselves" in this passage are unsaved men, per your own admission. You do the connection. [without bias]

You miss the context? Do you think that the writer is actually speaking about the ones who crucified Christ physically?

Why would the author be speaking of people that have no care about Christianity? Do you believe that the people who physically crucified Christ were enlightened or tasted of the heavenly gift?

 

[Jim Parker]

Do you think that the writer is actually speaking about the ones who crucified Christ physically?

think????

 

[Nathan]

think????

I'm hoping.....

 

[Jim Parker]

I'm hoping.....

Ah!
Hope springs eternal.
Dum Spiro Spero.
Etc.

 

[chessman]

Do you want to talk about the meaning of the word (linguistics) or not?

No. I know what the meaning of "linguistic" means as well as what the two different Greek words in question mean. One means to "share in" the other means to "accept what is offered".

http://biblehub.com/greek/3353.htm
http://biblehub.com/greek/2983.htm

In Heb 6:4-6, the godless (unsaved) men that crucifed the Son of God "shared in" the Holy Spirit. They did NOT accept what was offered.

That's my point. And it's a valid point.

 

[Jim Parker]

In Heb 6:4-6, the godless (unsaved) men that crucifed the Son of God "shared in" the Holy Spirit. They did NOT accept what was offered.

In Heb. 6:4-6 there is no mention of "godless (unsaved) men that crucified the Son of God"

That's my point. And it's a valid point.

How can it be a valid point if the verses you are talking about have nothing to do with the people who crucified Christ?
So what in the world are you talking about??? You're not making any sense.

 

[chessman]

Do you think that the writer is actually speaking about the ones who crucified Christ physically?

Of course. That's what the Text says. Don't you?

Why would the author be speaking of people that have no care about Christianity?

To prove his point. It is impossible to renew them again to repentance. Dust off your feet and move on.

Hebrews 6:4-6 (NASB) For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.​

Do you believe that the people who physically crucified Christ were enlightened or tasted of the heavenly gift?

Of course. That's what the author said.

Do I believe they were once saved??? No!
Nor do you, right?

Some people do, however. Which I find odd.

 

[chessman]

So what are you talking about?

Theology. Interested?

Hebrews 6:4-6 (NASB) For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame

Church history also tells us the men that crucifed the Son of God and put Him to open shame were godless men.

Acts 2:23 (NASB) this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death. ​

Do you think the godless men that crucifed the Son of God were once saved?

 

[Nathan]

Of course. That's what the Text says. Don't you?


To prove his point. It is impossible to renew them again to repentance. Dust off your feet and move on.

Hebrews 6:4-6 (NASB) For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.​

Of course. That's what the author said.

Do I believe they were once saved??? No!
Nor do you, right?

Some people do, however. Which I find odd.

Nah, Hebrews is not speaking of the actual ones responsible for the crucifixion. Maybe you've never read 1 Corinthians?

1 Cor 2:1-13
1 And I, when I came to you, brothers, did not come proclaiming to you the testimony of God with lofty speech or wisdom.
2 For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified.
3 And I was with you in weakness and in fear and much trembling,
4 and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,
5 that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.
6 Yet among the mature we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away.
7 But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory.
8 None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 But, as it is written, "What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined, what God has prepared for those who love him"-
10 these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God.
11 For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God.
13 And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.

Your sin, and my sin, is what put Him on that cross. I hope one day you come to understand this. He died for you. We put Him on that cross.

The writer of Hebrews cannot be referring to the physical people responsible because they had no clue who He was and what His death was all about. Paul is clear they would not have crucified Him. The writer of Hebrews speaks of people who know and understand.

 

[MarkT]

And, by implication, He who does NOT endure to the end will NOT be saved.

iakov the fool

Not necessarily.

Our Father will gives us anything we ask of him. John 16:23 So He will save whoever we ask Him to save.

 

[chessman]

Your sin, and my sin, is what put Him on that cross.

I prefer to believe what Scripture actually says.

Acts 2:22-23 (NASB) “Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know— this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.​

 

[Nathan]

I prefer to believe what Scripture actually says.

Acts 2:22-23 (NASB) “Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know— this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.​

They fulfilled the act, but Christ gave His life - no one took it from Him. He died for our sins, not because someone killed Him.

1 Corinthians 15:3 (ESV)
For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures,

In Acts, Peter was presenting the Gospel to them - not accusing or judging them.

 

[Jim Parker]

In Acts, Peter was presenting the Gospel to them - not accusing or judging them.

And, in reference to the actual passage under discussion, (Heb 6:4-6) the acts passage which was quoted "you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death." has absolutely not one single hint of a connection or any relevance. This is scrambled Bible at it's worst.

 

[JLB]

You're still inserting "Spirit" into a passage that never even uses the word "spirit". I know exactly what "power" He gave them. Matthew says what it was He gave them on that occasion:

Matthew 10:1, 7 (NASB) Jesus summoned His twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every kind of disease and every kind of sickness. ...
And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’

All you have to do then, is prove from the scriptures that Jesus gave them power from some "other" spirit, than the Holy Spirit.


And when He had called His twelve disciples to Him, He gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease. Matthew 10:1

The very Word of God. The Jewish leaders had already tasted and been enlightened to this Word given through Isaiah.

Matthew 3:2-3 (NASB) “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” For this is the one referred to by Isaiah the prophet when he said,
“The voice of one crying in the wilderness, ‘Make ready the way of the Lord, Make His paths straight!’”

The context is the Gospel Message [word of God] not some old testament word from Isaiah.

• and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.
Hebrews 6:4-8

The writer sums up his warning: For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it...

This is a reference to the Holy Spirit which is given to those who believe the Gospel Message [word of God].

"Drinking in" is an irrefutable reference to partaking of the Holy Spirit, as receiving into them the Holy Spirit.


Those who drink in" the Holy Spirit, being partakers of the Holy Spirit, and then fall away, have no recourse available to them to renew them to repentance.

Like the earth that drinks in the rain, then produces thorns and briers, it is rejected, whose end is to be burned.

Just as the example of those who don'r remain, or abide, or continue "in Him", they are cast into the fire and burned.

In Him = Eternal Life

Removed from Him = cast into the fire and burned

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

There is just no way for you to explain away Hebrews 6, as referring to the unsaved being partakers of the Holy Spirit, as you have provided no scripture that teaches us the unsaved are partakers of the Holy Spirit.


Just as there is no way for you to explain away that those "in Him" then removed from Him, were "never saved".

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


Just as there is no way for you to explain away those who depart from the faith in Christ, were never saved at one time.

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,
1 Timothy 4:1

Here is the question for you or Freegrace or anyone who believes the unbiblical doctrine of OSAS.

What is the difference between an unbeliever who never believed, and a person who believed for awhile, then no longer believes?

They both are unbelieving.




JLB

 

[JLB]

The "they", "those" and "themselves" in this passage are unsaved men, per your own admission. You do the connection. [without bias]

The "they", "those", and "themselves", were those who believed at one time, and were partaker's of the Holy Spirit, then fell away.



JLB

 

[chessman]

The "they", "those", and "themselves", were those who believed at one time, and were partaker's of the Holy Spirit, then fell away.



JLB

Only if you insert "believed at one time" into the Heb passage and ignore the fact that it was indeed unbelieving Jewsish leaders and godless men's hands that crucifed the Son of God and put Him to open shame:

'For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, __'believed at one time'_, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

Acts 2:23 (NASB) this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death. ​

 

[Nathan]

Only if you insert "believed at one time" into the Heb passage and ignore the fact that it was indeed unbelieving Jewsish leaders and godless men's hands that crucifed the Son of God and put Him to open shame:

'For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, __'believed at one time'_, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

Acts 2:23 (NASB) this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death. ​

Your bypassing the passage in 1 Corinthians.

 

[chessman]

Your bypassing the passage in 1 Corinthians.

No I'm not.

For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures,

If I thought or said that someone other than Christ died for mine and your sins, 1 Cor 15:3 would correct my view. But I know who died for our sins.

I also know who crucifed the Son of God and put Him to open shame. And it wasn't believers in Christ that did it.

 

[Nathan]

No I'm not.



If I thought or said that someone other than Christ died for mine and your sins, 1 Cor 15:3 would correct my view. But I know who died for our sins.

I also know who crucifed the Son of God and put Him to open shame. And it wasn't believers in Christ that did it.

Actually, I was talking about the other passage. The one that speaks about who physically killed Christ.

 

[chessman]

Actually, I was talking about the other passage. The one that speaks about who physically killed Christ.

None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Like I said, the Jewish leaders who did NOT believe in Christ crucified Him.

BTW, you might have been thinking about this other 1 Cor passage but you were not "talking" about it.