2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5; what is coming?

[FreeGrace]

Those that crucifed Christ never left giving animal sacrifices for their repentance of sins. They never accepted Christ's sacrifice, that is.

But I don't consider those addressed in Hebrews to be the ones who crucified Christ.

Where does he say that animal sacrifices didn't cleanse sins for a Jew?

Heb 10 -
1 The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship.
2 Otherwise, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins.
3 But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins.
4 It is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

And the writer makes the point that Christ's sacrifice was "once for all" -
9:26, 28, 10:2, 10, 12, 13.

I believe Hebrews was speaking about those that crucifed Christ because that's literally what it says.

That's not how I and many scholars read it.

I don't see any point in warning unbelievers of their practices. What they all need is the gospel.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"2 Cor 1:22 - set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

2 Cor 5:5 - Now the one who has fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

The question is about the phrase "what is to come", found in both verses. What does it refer to? iow, what's coming?

The phrase "set his seal of ownership on us" relates these 2 verses to Eph 1:13, 14 and 4:30.

Eph 1 -
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Eph 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

What is clear from all these verses is that whatever it is that is coming, it is guaranteed. To come, that is.

Thoughts?"

What is coming is Jesus Christ. With Him comes our salvation.

Quite corrrect. So Eph 1:13,14 is a statement about the GUARANTEE of our salvation, based on being sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit.

What is coming is the resurrection of the dead in Christ.

A lot of things are coming, but have no relevance to Eph 1:13,14. In fact, there is NO MENTION of resurrection in Eph 1:13,14. What IS mentioned is the guaranteed redemption of God's own possession.

There were a number of passages quoted in this post, but none were relevant to Eph 1:13,14, so I didn't need to comment on any of them.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Where does this verse say anything about "saves whoever He wills"? I'm not seeing it.

Where does the Bible teach that God chooses who will believe?

And the Bible tells us exactly to whom He "has mercy upon". Isa 55:7 - Let the wicked forsake their ways and the unrighteous their thoughts. Let them turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on them, and to our God, for he will freely pardon.

iow, He has mercy on those who "turn to the LORD", or repent. Repenting is a choice."

'He will have mercy on' suggests he will spare them. In other words 'save'. They will be saved from his wrath.

Isa 55:7 tells us plainly on whom He will have mercy. Those who repent.

But you've not addressed my point. Where does the Bible teach that God chooses who will believe? [edited]

God chose Paul. Acts 9:15

The verse also tells us what God chose him FOR; to be an evangelist. Not for salvation.

He chose the apostles. John 15:16-19

This passage deals with being chosen for service. But don't forget John 6:70 - Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!” This chosing clearly was not for salvation, but for service, for even Judas fulfilled Scripture (service) by being chosen.

He chose the prophets. Isa. 41:8 He chose Abraham. Isa. 51:2

God has chosen a lot of people, and for a lot of reasons. But there are NO verses in the Bible about being elected for salvation.

It's not a choice; not if you fear God. Hearing and understanding the word of God is a gift.

Not true. God's Word is a gift, whether anyone hears or understands it. Where does the Bible say that hearing and understanding are gifts of God?

Believing isn't a choice. You either believe or you don't.

That fact doesn't eliminate the choice is believing. Are you not aware that all you believe is based on whether one chooses to believe facts or even just things they hear??

Faith isn't a choice.

Actually, it's a noun. And it is a choice, in spite of your claim.

You either have it or you don't.

This doesn't eliminate the choice of what to believe.

 

[chessman]

I asked:

Where does he say that animal sacrifices didn't cleanse sins for a Jew?

4 It is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

For God to "take away" sins is different than to yearly "cleanse" oneself of sins. You answered a different question.
The Jewish leaders, "those" that crucifed the Son of God, "cleansed" themselves through animal sacrifices yearly. But those that crucifed the Son of God did not have their sins "taken away" by the blood of Christ.

Hebrews 10:10 (NASB) By this will [God's Will] we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Hebrews 2:11 For both He who sanctifies and those who are sanctified are all from one Father; for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren, ​

When it's God's sacrifice it's He who sanctifies and He "takes away" sins. When it was animal sacrifices it's yearly cleansing.

I don't see any point in warning unbelievers of their practices.

???
Jews need to receive the sanctification by Christ, why?

Hebrews 10:1 (NASB) For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the very form of things, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually year by year, make perfect those who draw near. ​

My point is, those that crucifed the Son of God had only a shadow (a yearly cleansing) not perfect sanctification by Him. They had part taken.

Hebrews 8:22 (NASB) And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness
​

You could almost say they received the Holy Spirit, yet they fell short of it.

 

[MarkT]

I said this:
"Where does this verse say anything about "saves whoever He wills"? I'm not seeing it.

Where does the Bible teach that God chooses who will believe?

And the Bible tells us exactly to whom He "has mercy upon". Isa 55:7 - Let the wicked forsake their ways and the unrighteous their thoughts. Let them turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on them, and to our God, for he will freely pardon.

iow, He has mercy on those who "turn to the LORD", or repent. Repenting is a choice."

Isa 55:7 tells us plainly on whom He will have mercy. Those who repent.

But you've not addressed my point. Where does the Bible teach that God chooses who will believe? [edited]


The verse also tells us what God chose him FOR; to be an evangelist. Not for salvation.


This passage deals with being chosen for service. But don't forget John 6:70 - Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!” This chosing clearly was not for salvation, but for service, for even Judas fulfilled Scripture (service) by being chosen.


God has chosen a lot of people, and for a lot of reasons. But there are NO verses in the Bible about being elected for salvation.


Not true. God's Word is a gift, whether anyone hears or understands it. Where does the Bible say that hearing and understanding are gifts of God?



That fact doesn't eliminate the choice is believing. Are you not aware that all you believe is based on whether one chooses to believe facts or even just things they hear??


Actually, it's a noun. And it is a choice, in spite of your claim.


This doesn't eliminate the choice of what to believe.

God doesn't regard or consider your choice. He has mercy on (saves) whomever he wills.

Romans 9:15
For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
Romans 9:16
So it depends not upon man’s will or exertion, but upon God’s mercy.
Romans 9:18
So then he has mercy upon whomever he wills, and he hardens the heart of whomever he wills.

Re. the saints, Paul said, 'God chose you from the beginning to be saved. 2 Thess. 2:13

2 Thessalonians 2:13
But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God chose you from the beginning to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. RSV

Re. the word of God Proverbs 2:6
For the Lord gives wisdom; from his mouth come knowledge and understanding.
Job 36:10
He opens their ears to instruction, and commands that they return from iniquity.

 

[JLB]

I said this:
"2 Cor 1:22 - set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

2 Cor 5:5 - Now the one who has fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

The question is about the phrase "what is to come", found in both verses. What does it refer to? iow, what's coming?

What is coming is the Lord Jesus Christ, with His saints from heaven, to earth, to gather His people for the resurrection and rapture, on the last Day.

24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:24-29

• those who have done good, to the resurrection of life
• those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation

JLB

 

[JLB]

Quite corrrect. So Eph 1:13,14 is a statement about the GUARANTEE of our salvation, based on being sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit.

Based on believing: present tense.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Having loved His appearing is a good thing.

2 Timothy 4:8 (NASB) in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to ____ who have loved His appearing. ​

A. Many
B. Some
C. Few
D. Most
E. All

All who have kept the faith.


7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8 Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing. 2 Timothy 4:7-8


Those who love His appearing are those whose hearts are full of confidence, because they have faith; they have kept the faith.


JLB

 

[JLB]

I'v already shown that your idea of John 15 is incorrect,

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

• Those who are in Him, have eternal life.
• Those who are in Him, then removed from Him, are cast into the fire and burned.

Like the branch that is in the vine, then is removed from the vine, and withers, in which it is thrown into the fire and burned.

What happens to a branch that is thrown into a fire?


JLB

 

[chessman]

Those who love His appearing are those whose hearts are full of confidence, because they have faith; they have kept the faith.

"All" those who "have loved" His appearing is what Paul actually said:

2 Timothy 4:8 (NASB) in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing.​

Your re-phrasing deleted the "all" and changed the verb tense. Why???

What did Paul mean by "kept the faith"???
Answer: "Finished the course"

What did Paul mean by "finished the course"???
Answer: "fought the good fight"

What did Paul mean by he "fought the good fight"?

Prior to his Roman sentencing and death Paul said:

2 Timothy 4:7 (NASB) I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith; ​

Proof positive that;
1. "Finishing the course" occured sometime prior to his death.
2. He "fought the good fight" sometime prior to his death.
3. He "kept the faith" prior to his death.

So, what do you think Paul told Timothy was to 'fight the good fight'?

 

[JLB]

"All" those who "have loved" His appearing is what Paul actually said:

2 Timothy 4:8 (NASB) in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing.​

Your re-phrasing deleted the "all" and changed the verb tense. Why???

What did Paul mean by "kept the faith"???
Answer: "Finished the course"

What did Paul mean by "finished the course"???
Answer: "fought the good fight"

What did Paul mean by he "fought the good fight"?

Prior to his Roman sentencing and death Paul said:

2 Timothy 4:7 (NASB) I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith; ​

Proof positive that;
1. "Finishing the course" occured sometime prior to his death.
2. He "fought the good fight" sometime prior to his death.
3. He "kept the faith" prior to his death.

So, what do you think Paul told Timothy was to 'fight the good fight'?

Those who love His appearing, are those who have faith.


If you believe those who do not have faith in Christ, love His appearing please show us the scripture for this belief.


7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8 Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing. 2 Timothy 4:7-8


Those who love His appearing are those whose hearts are full of confidence, because they have faith; they have kept the faith.

Faith is the substance of things hoped for; the evidence of things not seen.

Substance here is also rendered confidence:


Substance; Confidence - Strong's G5287 - hypostasis

1. a setting or placing under
   1. thing put under, substructure, foundation
      
2. that which has foundation, is firm
   1. that which has actual existence
      
      1. a substance, real being
   2. the substantial quality, nature, of a person or thing
   3. the steadfastness of mind, firmness, courage, resolution
      
      1. confidence, firm trust, assurance
         

Keeping the faith is conducive to receiving and abiding; ie having our place in Christ.

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:14


Which is why I said:
Those who love His appearing are those whose hearts are full of confidence, because they have faith; they have kept the faith.


JLB

 

[JLB]

"All" those who "have loved" His appearing is what Paul actually said:

2 Timothy 4:8 (NASB) in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing.
Your re-phrasing deleted the "all" and changed the verb tense. Why???

Do you believe those who do not have faith in Christ, will love His appearing?



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

I asked
"Where does he say that animal sacrifices didn't cleanse sins for a Jew?"
FG responded:
"4 It is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins."

For God to "take away" sins is different than to yearly "cleanse" oneself of sins. You answered a different question.

I don't believe so. Heb 10:4 is in the context of comparing animal sacrifice with Christ's perfect sacrifice. The writer made the point that animal sacrifices had to be done yearly. But Christ's sacrifice was "once for all", mentioned 7 times in ch 9 and 10. And 10:1 makes quite clear the problem with animal sacrifices.

The Jewish leaders, "those" that crucifed the Son of God, "cleansed" themselves through animal sacrifices yearly.

No, they didn't "cleanse themselves". Consider 10:3 - 3 But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins.

That was the sole purpose of animal sacrifices. And Paul tells us the purpose of the Law (animal sacrifice) in Gal 3:
19 Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was given through angels and entrusted to a mediator.
Thereforethe Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.

​

You could almost say they received the Holy Spirit, yet they fell short of it.

No, I wouldn't say that.

 

[FreeGrace]

God doesn't regard or consider your choice. He has mercy on (saves) whomever he wills.

I showed from the Bible on whom God has mercy on, from Isa 55:7.

Romans 9:15
For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
Romans 9:16
So it depends not upon man’s will or exertion, but upon God’s mercy.
Romans 9:18
So then he has mercy upon whomever he wills, and he hardens the heart of whomever he wills.

These verses make the point that God chooses on whom He will have mercy. And Isa 55:7 informs us of who that is.

Re. the saints, Paul said, 'God chose you from the beginning to be saved. 2 Thess. 2:13

2 Thessalonians 2:13
But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God chose you from the beginning to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. RSV

This verse speaks of the MEANS of salvation. iow, God chose the means for salvation; through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. That's HOW people are saved. iow, God chooses to save those who believe.

And guess what?! The Bible actually says that plainly:
For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 1 Cor 1:21

I had asked for any verse that says that God chooses who will believe. Are there any?

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"2 Cor 1:22 - set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

2 Cor 5:5 - Now the one who has fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

The question is about the phrase "what is to come", found in both verses. What does it refer to? iow, what's coming?

What is coming is the Lord Jesus Christ, with His saints from heaven, to earth, to gather His people for the resurrection and rapture, on the last Day.

Per the ACTUAL VERSES, what is guaranteed to come is the day of redemption. For all "having believed" (aorist tense).

iow, for "having believed", all of them are guaranteed the day of redemption. Not judgment for bad behaviors.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Quite corrrect. So Eph 1:13,14 is a statement about the GUARANTEE of our salvation, based on being sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit."

Based on believing: present tense.
JLB

Please show me where 'believe' is present tense in Eph 1:13. But I know that will be impossible, because the Greek word is in the aorist tense, not present tense. And was translated correctly "having believed".

The GUARANTEE of our seeing the day of redemption is based on "having believed". That is exactly what Eph 1:13,14 teaches.

The OSNAS view does not line up with Eph 1:13,14

 

[FreeGrace]

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

• Those who are in Him, have eternal life.
• Those who are in Him, then removed from Him, are cast into the fire and burned.

Like the branch that is in the vine, then is removed from the vine, and withers, in which it is thrown into the fire and burned.

What happens to a branch that is thrown into a fire?
JLB

Impossible, because the Bible GUARANTEES the day of redemption for "having believed". And being sealed IN HIM with the Holy Spirit, who is a deposit as God's own possession, for the day of redemption. Eph 1:13,14

Once sealed always sealed. Or, OSAS.

If one can be unsealed, please provide Scripture which says so.

 

[JLB]

Impossible, because the Bible GUARANTEES the day of redemption for "having believed". And being sealed IN HIM with the Holy Spirit, who is a deposit as God's own possession, for the day of redemption. Eph 1:13,14

Once sealed always sealed. Or, OSAS.

If one can be unsealed, please provide Scripture which says so.

If it's impossible to have God's seal of approval removed, then please post the scripture that proves it.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

• Those who are in Him, have eternal life.
• Those who are in Him, then removed from Him, are cast into the fire and burned.

Like the branch that is in the vine, then is removed from the vine, and withers, in which it is thrown into the fire and burned.

What happens to a branch that is thrown into a fire?


JLB

 

[JLB]

Please show me where 'believe' is present tense in Eph 1:13. But I know that will be impossible, because the Greek word is in the aorist tense, not present tense. And was translated correctly "having believed".

The GUARANTEE of our seeing the day of redemption is based on "having believed". That is exactly what Eph 1:13,14 teaches.

The OSNAS view does not line up with Eph 1:13,14

13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. Ephesians 1;13-14

The promise is to believers; Those who trust Christ and believe.

If you have a scripture that teaches us those who have returned to unbelieving, are promised eternal life, then post it, otherwise you have no proof from the scriptures.

The Holy Spirit of promise is granted to those who believe, not to those who return to unbelieving.

Those who continue to believe are overcomers, as they continue in the faith.

7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things,and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:7-8





JLB

 

[JLB]

Impossible, because the Bible GUARANTEES the day of redemption for "having believed". And being sealed IN HIM with the Holy Spirit, who is a deposit as God's own possession, for the day of redemption. Eph 1:13,14

What happens to a branch that is thrown into the fire?

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

• Those who are in Him, have eternal life.
• Those who are in Him, then removed from Him, are cast into the fire and burned.