2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5; what is coming?

[chessman]

You believe they were enlightened, but not really enlightened......

You believe they tasted, but not really tasted......

You believe they partook, but not really partook.......

So, according to you, someone cannot share in the Spirit and not have Him work in their life.

Are you aware that it is against the rules to state what I believe? (You fogot to post your statement about what I believe in the form of a question. This time!)

Rules of this forum:"Do not speak for other members by declaring what they believe or make leaps and draw your own conclusions."

To save a step, I'll add a question mark to each of your statements and answer:

1. You believe they tasted, but not really tasted? No. See the .....

2. You believe they partook, but not really partook? No. See the ......

3. You believe they were enlightened, but not really enlightened? No. See the .....

As I said, these men who crucifed the Son of God, were indeed enlightened, partook of the Holy Spirit and did indeed taste the Word of God.

And, I do NOT believe they had faith in Christ..

 

[chessman]

It might help you to see things better if you don't break things up and read them in context.

How do you know it's not you that needs help to see this passage better?
Can you show where I have said anything wrong about this passage?

Do you believe this passage is true?

Yes.

 

[Nathan]

I said this:
"But some will continue to miss the fact that the SOLE CRITERIA for never perishing is to simply receive eternal life."

Not sure where this question comes from. Certainly not from what I posted.

The word 'faith' is a noun and means 'what is believed'. To say "my faith" refers to what I personally believe.

Faith can apply to any religion and Christianity, which is not a religion.

However, eternal life is defined as a gift of God in Rom 6:23, and God's gifts are irrevocable per Rom 11:29.

The question comes from the Bible. You answered all I need to know.

 

[Nathan]

Are you aware that it is against the rules to state what I believe? (You fogot to post your statement about what I believe in the form of a question. This time!)

Rules of this forum:"Do not speak for other members by declaring what they believe or make leaps and draw your own conclusions."

To save a step, I'll add a question mark to each of your statements and answer:

1. You believe they tasted, but not really tasted? No. See the .....

2. You believe they partook, but not really partook? No. See the ......

3. You believe they were enlightened, but not really enlightened? No. See the .....

As I said, these men who crucifed the Son of God, were indeed enlightened, partook of the Holy Spirit and did indeed taste the Word of God.

And, I do NOT believe they had faith in Christ..

Ah yes, I did forget the word "do" before those.

 

[Nathan]

How do you know it's not you that needs help to see this passage better?
Can you show where I have said anything wrong about this passage?


Yes.

You left out an important question from the post your quoting. By answering it, you will answer the question that you just asked me.

Let me ask again, maybe in another way.

If the ones who crucified Christ partook in the Spirit, then why were they not transformed? Does God give His Spirit to someone for no reason?

Also, the passage in Hebrews speaks about the people being unable to "renew to repentance". This means they must have already have repented already. Did the people who crucified Christ repent from their ways?

 

[FreeGrace]

Again your response contains no scripture.

This was contained in my post:
"What is clear from John 10:26-28 is that one will NEVER PERISH by simply receiving eternal life.

Which agrees completely with Paul's teaching that eternal life is a gift of God (Rom 6:23) and that the gifts of God are irrevocable (Rom 11:29. So, it's quite obvious that eternal life is irrevocable."

So, apparently neither Rom 6:23 and 11:29 are considered to be Scripture, in your view. That does explain a lot.

The criteria for receiving eternal life is the result of being one of His sheep: one who hears His voice, knows and follows Him.

26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
John 10:26-28

Your claim keeps getting played over and over, but no Scripture to back it up. And Joyn 10:26-28 does NOT place the criteria of following Him in order to receive eternal life.

It is to those, who hear His voice, and know Him, and who follow Him, that He gives eternal life.

It is to His sheep that He gives eternal life. And one becomes a sheep by "entering through Him" in 10:9.

 

[FreeGrace]

eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; Romans 2:7JLB

So now we're back to doin' good, huh? Yet your recent post said this: "It is to those, who hear His voice, and know Him, and who follow Him, that He gives eternal life."

So, kind of a either/or, or both are needed.

But the real question is why isn't believing in Him ever required in your view for eternal life, when so many verses say it is?
Eternal Life:

John 3:15-16
15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

That's 10 actual verses quoted.

 

[Nathan]

....out of context

Proverbs 30:5 (ESV)
Every word of God proves true; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him.

 

[FreeGrace]

....out of context

Proverbs 30:5 (ESV)
Every word of God proves true; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him.

Is there a context for your post?

 

[chessman]

I believe the point is that those believers who return to animal sacrifice in order to avoid persecution are firgurately crucifying the Son of God again, which puts Him to open shame.

I used to have that view. It's certainly somewhat reasonable. However, I see 'issues' with it which I'll address after I answer your questions. And I do so for a simple and straightforward reason (although selfish). Reason being, maybe you are right and I am wrong. I never want to misrepresent a passage. Then again, maybe I'm right a you are wrong.

I really don't see how this passage would be referring to unbelievers who literally crucified Christ.

Umm, I don't think the men that crucifed Christ were strick 'unbelievers' as in Atheist (not theist) or Pagan either. Although obviously they were not NT believers in Jesus Christ. (Nor does the Text say they were). They were OT Jews like Saul. Their problem was precisely Saul's problem prior to His conversion to Paul. They did not believe Jesus was Christ (Messiah, the Son of God). But they were not atheists either. In fact, they were not understanding their Holy Spirit inspired Scriptures. They were not even looking for the God-man (God incarnate, the Son of God) to begin with. It surprised Mary and Joseph too. They were looking for a man's man, so-to-speak. Their interpretation of Messiah was wrong. Yet, they were looking for messiah. So was Herod. They had a partly right view. They thought 'messiah' would be a man who could overcome their Roman oppression (versus their sin oppression).

Read Matt 22 (all of it), but my point is:

Matthew 22:29, 41-46 (NASB) But Jesus answered and said to them [the men that crucifed Jesus], “You are mistaken, not understanding the Scriptures nor the power of God.

Now while the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them a question: “What do you think about the Christ, whose son is He?” They said to Him, “The son of David.” He said to them, “Then how does David in the Spirit call Him ‘Lord,’ saying, ‘The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand, Until I put Your enemies beneath Your feet”’? If David then calls Him ‘Lord,’ how is He his son?” No one was able to answer Him a word, nor did anyone dare from that day on to ask Him another question. ​

Right then and there (among others), they were "enlightened' to the Truth. They had a 'taste' of the Son of God They just didn't accept what He (or David in the Spirit) was telling them.

How were they ever "enlightened", or "tasted of the heavenly gift", or "been made partakers of the Holy Spirit", or "tasted the good word of God"?

See Matt 22. As a God fearing Jew who recited the Scriptures weekly they were partakers (part takers) of the Holy Spirit and they met Jesus face-to-face, so they 'tasted' the good word of God. I could go on and on with other examples.

Those who crucified Christ never fit that description.

I believe they did. In fact, if you really think about what it says, nobody else could fit the desription. There is only one group of people that crucifed "to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame."

No, I don't believe those who literally crucified Christ did.

See the Son of God's interaction with these very men (in Matt 22 and elsewhere) that crucifed Christ and their interaction with the Holy Spirit inspired Scriptures (their misunderstanding them that is). I think they did have a taste. More so than any other, really.

I don't see how. In fact, prior to the day of Pentecost, only the 11 disciples received the Holy Spirit.

Exactly! Prior to this, people were merely partakers (sharing a part, part takers, is literally the word's original meaning) of the Holy Spirit. Jesus's promise of "receiving" (accepting Him, bathed in Him, dwelling with Him, etc.) the Holy Spirit is more than a part taker (so much better, a Seal, capital S). The Text does not say the men that crucifed Christ "received" the Holy Spirit.

Look at the different meaning of these two different words in your favorite Greek dictionary. I've posted it multiple times. But it's key. Look at the very etymology of the word "partake". It literally comes from the words "part" "take". These men (yes the men that crucifed Christ) had taken a part of the truth from the Scriptures and misunderstood it. They just didn't accept/receive the whole Spirit. Nobody did till the 10. Technically Timothy (the doubter) wasn't there with the others that first night. Nor was Judas.

 

[JLB]

So now we're back to doin' good, huh? Yet your recent post said this: "It is to those, who hear His voice, and know Him, and who follow Him, that He gives eternal life."

The bible is amazing, isn't it? It has more than one verse of scripture.

All the scripture must be read and understood in it's context as the whole counsel of God.

All you have to do is read for yourself, what the bible plainly says:


My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28

So, kind of a either/or, or both are needed.

"Believe" means so much more than the shallow surface meaning we assign to it.

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. John 15:1-2

Those who are "in Him" that do not remain "in Him" so that they "bear fruit", which comes from hearing His voice, knowing Him, and continuing to follow Him, or be led by Him, are removed from Him, by God the Father.

So that there is no mistaking what happens to those who are "in Him" that do not continue to remain connected to Him, Jesus made it clear:

6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


Those who are "in Him" are saved and have eternal life.
Those who are "in Him" then later removed from Him, are no longer saved, and no longer have the eternal life that is only found "in Him".

In Him = Eternal Life
Removed from Him = Cast into the fire and burned.



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

I used to have that view. It's certainly somewhat reasonable. However, I see 'issues' with it which I'll address after I answer your questions. And I do so for a simple and straightforward reason (although selfish). Reason being, maybe you are right and I am wrong. I never want to misrepresent a passage. Then again, maybe I'm right a you are wrong.

I agree. Neither do I ever want to misrepresent a passage. That's why I always encourage those who disagree with my views to explain how or why I'm incorrect regarding any specific verse or passage.

Umm, I don't think the men that crucifed Christ were strick 'unbelievers' as in Atheist (not theist) or Pagan either. Although obviously they were not NT believers in Jesus Christ. (Nor does the Text say they were). They were OT Jews like Saul. Their problem was precisely Saul's problem prior to His conversion to Paul.

Correct. They were certainly monotheistic. But I just don't see Heb 6 referring to Jews who hadn't accepted Jesus as Messiah. Scholars report that due to persecution by orthodox Jews to believers in Jesus, some either had, or were considering returning to animal sacrifice in order to avoid persecution.

Read Matt 22 (all of it), but my point is:

Matthew 22:29, 41-46 (NASB) But Jesus answered and said to them [the men that crucifed Jesus], “You are mistaken, not understanding the Scriptures nor the power of God.

Now while the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them a question: “What do you think about the Christ, whose son is He?” They said to Him, “The son of David.” He said to them, “Then how does David in the Spirit call Him ‘Lord,’ saying, ‘The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand, Until I put Your enemies beneath Your feet”’? If David then calls Him ‘Lord,’ how is He his son?” No one was able to answer Him a word, nor did anyone dare from that day on to ask Him another question. ​

Right then and there (among others), they were "enlightened' to the Truth. They had a 'taste' of the Son of God They just didn't accept what He (or David in the Spirit) was telling them.

The Greek word for 'taste' in Heb 6 is also used in Heb 2:9 regarding Christ "tasted death for all". I recall John MacArthur treating the word in Heb 6 kind of like taking a lick on an ice cream cone. But that is totally wrong. Eep given how the same word was used in reference to whom Christ died for.

See Matt 22. As a God fearing Jew who recited the Scriptures weekly they were partakers (part takers) of the Holy Spirit and they met Jesus face-to-face, so they 'tasted' the good word of God. I could go on and on with other examples.

This is the Greek word in Heb 6:4 - NT:3353 metochos (met'-okh-os); from NT:3348; participant, i.e. (as noun) a sharer; by implication an associate:
KJV - fellow, partaker, partner.

While the English word may come from 2 words, the Greek word doesn't. It means partner. I believe the concept of "partnering" with Christ refers to fellowship with Him. iow, unless we are in fellowship with Him, we can't partner with Him.

[

I believe they did. In fact, if you really think about what it says, nobody else could fit the desription. There is only one group of people that crucifed "to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame."

I can see how this could apply to any believer who either had or was considering returning to animal sacrifice, for whatever reason.

Since Christ IS the fulfillment of the Law and its sacrifices, to return to the shadow would be putting Him to an open shame.

The writer of Hebrews spends a lot of time explaining that the sacrifices didn't cleanse sins, but that Jesus' sacrifice does.

See the Son of God's interaction with these very men (in Matt 22 and elsewhere) that crucifed Christ and their interaction with the Holy Spirit inspired Scriptures (their misunderstanding them that is). I think they did have a taste. More so than any other, really.

Because of how the word is used in Heb 2:9, I believe the word means a full experience, not just a "lick", as JM once said.

Exactly! Prior to this, people were merely partakers (sharing a part, part takers, is literally the word's original meaning) of the Holy Spirit. Jesus's promise of "receiving" (accepting Him, bathed in Him, dwelling with Him, etc.) the Holy Spirit is more than a part taker (so much better, a Seal, capital S). The Text does not say the men that crucifed Christ "received" the Holy Spirit.

Given the Greek meaning of the word 'metochos', I believe "partakers of the Holy Spirit" means to be indwelt by the Spirit.

 

[FreeGrace]

The bible is amazing, isn't it?

Yes, it certainly is!

It has more than one verse of scripture.

And because God is perfect, all the verses agree with each other!!

All the scripture must be read and understood in it's context as the whole counsel of God.

Of course. And the meaning of any individual verse doesn't change by the verses around it.

But, the real issue is to properly read the verses. Which I don't believe is being done by the OSNAS group. I've seen examples of how poorly verses have been understood from that group.

All you have to do is read for yourself, what the bible plainly says:

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28

There is nothing in v.27 about any requirement for being His sheep being present tense hearing, knowing and following. Jesus was simply saying what His sheep do. Nothing about requirements for being His sheep.

So such a view is plainly a poor reading of the verse. In fact, Jesus had already explained how one becomes one of His sheep, in v.9; through faith in Him.

So, the ONLY condition for never perishing is to simply receive eternal life, which is the PLAIN READING of v.28.

If there were ANY other conditions for never perishing, v.28 would have been the PERFECT place to say so. Yet, Jesus gave no other conditions.

"Believe" means so much more than the shallow surface meaning we assign to it.

That may be true regarding your claims, but I've not done that. I acknowledge ALL the tenses used with regard to that word.

But, it seems the OSNAS group would rather avoid dealing with the aorist tense uses of 'believe'. Why? Because it refutes their claims about their misunderstanding of the present tense usage.

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. John 15:1-2

Those who are "in Him" that do not remain "in Him" so that they "bear fruit", which comes from hearing His voice, knowing Him, and continuing to follow Him, or be led by Him, are removed from Him, by God the Father.

Never mix and match metaphors with plain talk. Doesn't work. The misunderstanding that a believer can become "removed from being in Him" is refuted by Eph 1;13,14, in which those "having believed" (hm, aorist tense, no less) ARE sealed with the Holy Spirit of PROMISE, a GUARANTEE for the day of redemption. These verses guarantee that those sealed are guaranteed for the day of redemption.

Therefore, there is NO WAY John 15 deals with this seal being unsealed. Impossible.

So that there is no mistaking what happens to those who are "in Him" that do not continue to remain connected to Him, Jesus made it clear:

6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

Cannot refer to loss of salvation, because of very clear verses about being sealed with the Holy Spirit, a guarantee for the day of redemption.

Those who are "in Him" are saved and have eternal life.
Those who are "in Him" then later removed from Him, are no longer saved, and no longer have the eternal life that is only found "in Him".

In Him = Eternal Life
Removed from Him = Cast into the fire and burned.

Faulty conclusion because of other very plain verses about being sealed in Him, a GUARANTEE for the day of redemption.

You posted this at the beginning of this post:
"All the scripture must be read and understood in it's context as the whole counsel of God".

I don't believe you've followed your own claim. I've given many verses that directly refute the claim that salvation can be lost, yet the OSNAS group continues to not consider these verses. And, generally never provide any explanation of what those verses do teach.

And when there is an occasional explanation, there are errors in such explanations. Such as provided in your post here and how John 10:27 is understood, which I explained above.

 

[JLB]

Yes, it certainly is!


And because God is perfect, all the verses agree with each other!!


Of course. And the meaning of any individual verse doesn't change by the verses around it.

But, the real issue is to properly read the verses. Which I don't believe is being done by the OSNAS group. I've seen examples of how poorly verses have been understood from that group.


There is nothing in v.27 about any requirement for being His sheep being present tense hearing, knowing and following. Jesus was simply saying what His sheep do. Nothing about requirements for being His sheep.

So such a view is plainly a poor reading of the verse. In fact, Jesus had already explained how one becomes one of His sheep, in v.9; through faith in Him.

So, the ONLY condition for never perishing is to simply receive eternal life, which is the PLAIN READING of v.28.

If there were ANY other conditions for never perishing, v.28 would have been the PERFECT place to say so. Yet, Jesus gave no other conditions.


That may be true regarding your claims, but I've not done that. I acknowledge ALL the tenses used with regard to that word.

But, it seems the OSNAS group would rather avoid dealing with the aorist tense uses of 'believe'. Why? Because it refutes their claims about their misunderstanding of the present tense usage.


Never mix and match metaphors with plain talk. Doesn't work. The misunderstanding that a believer can become "removed from being in Him" is refuted by Eph 1;13,14, in which those "having believed" (hm, aorist tense, no less) ARE sealed with the Holy Spirit of PROMISE, a GUARANTEE for the day of redemption. These verses guarantee that those sealed are guaranteed for the day of redemption.

Therefore, there is NO WAY John 15 deals with this seal being unsealed. Impossible.


Cannot refer to loss of salvation, because of very clear verses about being sealed with the Holy Spirit, a guarantee for the day of redemption.


Faulty conclusion because of other very plain verses about being sealed in Him, a GUARANTEE for the day of redemption.

You posted this at the beginning of this post:
"All the scripture must be read and understood in it's context as the whole counsel of God".

I don't believe you've followed your own claim. I've given many verses that directly refute the claim that salvation can be lost, yet the OSNAS group continues to not consider these verses. And, generally never provide any explanation of what those verses do teach.

And when there is an occasional explanation, there are errors in such explanations. Such as provided in your post here and how John 10:27 is understood, which I explained above.

You are not addressing what the scripture says, nor the language of the scripture.

Your not addressing the points I have made which come from the scripture itself, and is written in it's context.

You just state what your pet doctrine says, and deny what the scriptures teach us.

Example:

Therefore, there is NO WAY John 15 deals with this seal being unsealed. Impossible.

[edited]

As you can see, I use scripture, so that we can all see what the scripture says, and study the actual language of scripture itself; the words used and their meaning.

Example below: The scripture itself is quoted and written out.

Below I then write out what this scripture says:

• Those who are in Him, are saved as long as they remain in Him.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

• Those who are in Him, are saved as long as they remain in Him.

If one of those in Him, is cast out of Him, then the one who was saved at one time, is now gathered up and thrown into the fire and burned.

Those who believe are saved.
Those who believe for a while are saved for a while.

12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13

Those who endure to the end are saved.


It is those who endure, continue to believe, till the end that are saved.

13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come. Matthew 24:13-14


Just as Jesus taught us, in the parable of the sower, those who endure to the end are saved.

20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.
Matthew 13:20-21

• endures only for a while = believes for a while = saved for a while.
• endure to the end = believe to the end = receiving the salvation of your soul.

... receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:9



JLB

 

[chessman]

some either had, or were considering returning to animal sacrifice in order to avoid persecution.

Those that crucifed Christ never left giving animal sacrifices for their repentance of sins. They never accepted Christ's sacrifice, that is.

The Greek word for 'taste' in Heb 6 is also used in Heb 2:9 regarding Christ "tasted death for all".

Yes. That's my point. Christ's body died but His soul/spirit did not die. Christ's non-physical makeup (His spirit) was as alive while His body lie in the tomb as it ever was. I'm sure those that crucifed Him thought they'd totally seen the last of Him. His body saw death while His soul lived on. I.e. He "tasted" death in His incarnation.

The writer of Hebrews spends a lot of time explaining that the sacrifices didn't cleanse sins, but that Jesus' sacrifice does.

Where does he say that animal sacrifices didn't cleanse sins for a Jew? He makes the point that if "you" fully accept Christ as your High Priest, He is "your" perfect (one) sacrifice. But "those" Jews that "themselves" crucifed Christ, "they" most certainly were obligated to the cleansing through animals for their sins, over and over and over through animal sacrifices.

Hebrews 5:1-3 (NASB) For every high priest taken from among men is appointed on behalf of men in things pertaining to God, in order to offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins; he can deal gently with the ignorant and misguided, since he himself also is beset with weakness; and because of it he is obligated to offer sacrifices for sins, as for the people, so also for himself.​

Because of how the word is used in Heb 2:9, I believe the word means a full experience, not just a "lick"

His body fully experienced death (but not decay), sure. But not His Spirit.

Luke 23:46 (NASB) And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, “Father, into Your hands I commit My spirit.” Having said this, He breathed His last. ​

Hebrews 7:17 (NASB) For it is attested of Him, “You are a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek.” ​

Hebrews 7:23-25 (NASB) The former priests, on the one hand, existed in greater numbers because they were prevented by death from continuing, but Jesus, on the other hand, because He continues forever, holds His priesthood permanently. Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.​

I believe Hebrews was speaking about those that crucifed Christ because that's literally what it says.

While the English word may come from 2 words, the Greek word doesn't.

It required the modern English word "partake" (part-taken is the etymology) in order to communicate the meaning of the Greek into English. But even the Greek word had its etymology from two words:

"derived from 3326 /metá, "with change afterward" and 2192 /éxō, "have") – properly, change due to sharing"

http://biblehub.com/greek/3353.htm

 

[MarkT]

Of course. So, to the point, what truth are you charging me with rejecting?


OK. The saints at Ephesus were chosen for what? Do you know?

Re. being sealed Eph. 1:13 I'm saying if a person rejects the truth, then he can not possess the Spirit of truth. So by rejecting the truth he is rejecting the Spirit and any rights or guarantees or promises that go with the Spirit.

Re. the saints who were chosen and appointed, Paul is saying they were chosen to be saved; having heard the gospel, they believed and they were sealed with the Spirit.

So it's not a question of being unsealed after having been sealed. It's a question of possession. You either have the Spirit or you don't.

 

[JLB]

2 Cor 1:22 - set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

2 Cor 5:5 - Now the one who has fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

The question is about the phrase "what is to come", found in both verses. What does it refer to? iow, what's coming?

The phrase "set his seal of ownership on us" relates these 2 verses to Eph 1:13, 14 and 4:30.

Eph 1 -
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Eph 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

What is clear from all these verses is that whatever it is that is coming, it is guaranteed. To come, that is.

Thoughts?

• What is coming is Jesus Christ. With Him comes our salvation.

so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28

• What is coming is the resurrection of the dead in Christ.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-18


What is coming is Judgment Day.

5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.
9 Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. 11 Knowing, therefore, the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are well known to God, and I also trust are well known in your consciences. 2 Corinthians 5:5-11



Here is a scene from that Day:

31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’

41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’

44 “Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Matthew 25:31-46

• Those of His servants who did nothing, and were self seeking, living to gratify themselves: Will hear these words from Him.

‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

• Those servants of His whose faith worked through them by love: Will hear these words from Him.

‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’



Paul said it this way: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:
eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,
Romans 2:6-8

• will render to each one according to his deeds”

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.




JLB

 

[MarkT]

Where does this verse say anything about "saves whoever He wills"? I'm not seeing it.

Where does the Bible teach that God chooses who will believe?

And the Bible tells us exactly to whom He "has mercy upon". Isa 55:7 - Let the wicked forsake their ways and the unrighteous their thoughts. Let them turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on them, and to our God, for he will freely pardon.

iow, He has mercy on those who "turn to the LORD", or repent. Repenting is a choice.

'He will have mercy on' suggests he will spare them. In other words 'save'. They will be saved from his wrath.

God chose Paul. Acts 9:15 He chose the apostles. John 15:16-19 He chose the prophets. Isa. 41:8 He chose Abraham. Isa. 51:2

It's not a choice; not if you fear God. Hearing and understanding the word of God is a gift. Believing isn't a choice. You either believe or you don't. Faith isn't a choice. You either have it or you don't.

 

[FreeGrace]

You are not addressing what the scripture says, nor the language of the scripture.

Then explain HOW I'm not.

Your not addressing the points I have made which come from the scripture itself, and is written in it's context.

I did. And refuted your notion of what Scripture says.

You just state what your pet doctrine says, and deny what the scriptures teach us.

Please show me.

Example:

[edited]

As you can see, I use scripture, so that we can all see what the scripture says, and study the actual language of scripture itself; the words used and their meaning.

Well, that was real helpful.

Example below: The scripture itself is quoted and written out.

Below I then write out what this scripture says:

• Those who are in Him, are saved as long as they remain in Him.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

• Those who are in Him, are saved as long as they remain in Him.

If one of those in Him, is cast out of Him, then the one who was saved at one time, is now gathered up and thrown into the fire and burned.

I'v already shown that your idea of John 15 is incorrect, based on what Paul wrote in Eph 1:13,14, which has NOT been addressed by you.

Eph 1:13,14
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Now, this is what we learn from these verses.
1. "when one believes", they are "included IN Christ", and "marked IN HIM with the Holy Spirit
2. The indwelling Holy Spirit guarantees the believer's inheritance of God's possession.
3. Those "having believed" are marked as God's possession and guaranteed until their redemption.

It is incumbent upon anyone from the OSNAS group to explain how any of these 3 points are not true.

Those who believe are saved.
Those who believe for a while are saved for a while.

This is just an opinion, which is not found in Scripture.

12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13

Nothing here about loss of salvation. Only a lot of assumption and PREsumption.

Those who endure to the end are saved.

Check out the context to learn what must be endured to the end.

It is those who endure, continue to believe, till the end that are saved.

13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come. Matthew 24:13-14

Again, check the context. It has nothing to do with eternal salvation.

 

[chessman]

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

Having loved His appearing is a good thing.

2 Timothy 4:8 (NASB) in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to ____ who have loved His appearing. ​

A. Many
B. Some
C. Few
D. Most
E. All