2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5; what is coming?

[Nathan]

No. Nor is that what I said I believed.

Then how do you explain the "once again" part of Hebrews, how it relates to the ones who originally killed Jesus, and their repentance?

 

[Nathan]

I understand that it is impossible to crucify Christ again literally. However, "those" that did literally crucify Christ is exactly and quite literally who this passage speaks of. And they were NOT believers in Christ!

Claiming that those that did (literally) crucify Him were believers simply must be inserted into this passage in order to come to that conclusion.

'For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, __'believed at one time'_, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.'

Yes, they (indeed the ones that literally crucifed Him) were "once enlightened". Heck, they had the very Son of God, the light of the world, literally speaking directly to them. Now that's enlightenment! Did they accept and believe the light??? No.

Yes, they tasted the "heavenly gift" and the "good Word of God". Heck, they had the 'bread of life' literally at their fingertips. Did they 'eat' the bread and believe Him??? No! They literally had His flesh wiped and put Him to open shame and crucifed His flesh.

Yes, they were "made partakers of the Holy Spirit". Heck, there were made to be, quite literally, the very men that fullfilled all the Holy Spirit's prophecies about who would cause the coming Christ (the Messiah) to suffer and die on the Roman cross.

Did they 'believe' He is Messiah, the Son of God??? No! Nor does this Text say they did or even imply it (if read without bias).

You believe they were enlightened, but not really enlightened......

You believe they tasted, but not really tasted......

You believe they partook, but not really partook.......

I see a pattern here......

1 Corinthians 2:8 (ESV) 8 None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

1 Corinthians 2:9 (ESV) 9 But, as it is written, "What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined, what God has prepared for those who love him"--

1 Corinthians 2:10 (ESV) 10 these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God.

Are you indicating that the someone can share in the Spirit of God, but not actually have Him at work in their life?

 

[chessman]

Then how do you explain the "once again" part of Hebrews, how it relates to the ones who originally killed Jesus, and their repentance?

The Biblical way.

Hebrews 6:1 (NASB) Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,​

These men (that crucifed Christ, the Son of God) still had their old foundation of repentance from dead works.
If they would have accepted the Son of God as their High Priest thru faith in Him, they could have had a better covenant. Instead, they crucifed Him.

 

[Nathan]

The Biblical way.

Hebrews 6:1 (NASB) Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,​

These men (that crucifed Christ, the Son of God) still had their old foundation of repentance from dead works.
If they would have accepted the Son of God as their High Priest thru faith in Him, they could have had a better covenant. Instead, they crucifed Him.

But the passage in Hewbrews equates repentance with Christ being crucified.

It says to "restore them again to repentance".

Hebrews 6:6 (ESV) 6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

Do you believe someone can repent of sins without the Holy Spirit leading them too?

 

[chessman]

I see a pattern here......

Do you want to change your answer to whether these men that crucifed the Son of God were saved from no, to yes?

1 Corinthians 2:8 (ESV) 8 None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

The rulers of the Jews that crucifed the Son of God most certainly did not understand the Word of God. If they had, they would not have crucifed Him. Good point!

1 Corinthians 2:9 (ESV) 9 But, as it is written, "What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined, what God has prepared for those who love him"--

Did the Jewish leaders the crucifed the Son of God have eyes and hearts that understood what God prepared??? No.

1 Corinthians 2:10 (ESV) 10 these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God.

Yes, to "us" that have faith in the Son of God the Spirit has revealed things not revealed to those who do not have faith in the Son of God (like the ones that crucifed Him).

Are you indicating that the someone can share in the Spirit of God, but not actually have Him at work in their life?

No.

 

[FreeGrace]

God doesn't care about anyone's freewill.

Then why did He create mankind with the freedom to choose?

He doesn't ask people if they want to be saved. He saves whoever he wills. Ro. 9:18
Romans 9:18
So then he has mercy upon whomever he wills, and he hardens the heart of whomever he wills.

Where does this verse say anything about "saves whoever He wills"? I'm not seeing it.

Where does the Bible teach that God chooses who will believe?

And the Bible tells us exactly to whom He "has mercy upon". Isa 55:7 - Let the wicked forsake their ways and the unrighteous their thoughts. Let them turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on them, and to our God, for he will freely pardon.

iow, He has mercy on those who "turn to the LORD", or repent. Repenting is a choice.

He doesn't ask people if they want to go to hell.

By giving the gospel message to all men, the choice is available.

I think in the end those who have shown us kindness will be saved.

So, Paul's answer to the jailer who asked "Sirs, what MUST I DO to be saved?" isn't true? He said, "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved." Acts 16:31

Or Jesus' words to Martha in John 11:25,26 -
25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die;
26 and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”

Jesus said if anyone gives us even a cup of cold water, he will be saved.

Well then, it appears Jesus died for nothing.

 

[FreeGrace]

FG

You can not reject the truth and possess the Spirit of truth at the same time.

Of course. So, to the point, what truth are you charging me with rejecting?

The saints at Ephesus were chosen and destined. They had the Spirit. Those who fall away reject the Spirit of truth.

OK. The saints at Ephesus were chosen for what? Do you know?

 

[FreeGrace]

Opinion no scripture.
Opinion no scripture.
Opinion no scripture.
Opinion no scripture.
Opinion no scripture.

All you have pointed out is your opinion, with a scripture "tag" after it, as if your opinion is scripture.

I've already explained how one who disagrees with my opinion regarding what Scripture means. But it seems just repeating oneself is easier to do and requires a lot less work.

When the scripture is written out, with it's context, it clearly shows that your opinion is lacking in truth.

I keep reading this, but have seen no evidence or support for your own opinion.

The above post contains no scripture, but only your opinion of what your doctrinal slant, see's through the eyes of a pre-conceived idea, with a "tag", such Eph 1:13.

Well, I, for one, consider Eph 1:13 to be Scripture. So your claim is false.

Also, the moderators have said that citing a Scripture reference is VALID. One only has to place their cursor (mouse) over the reference to read the verse cited.

However, how about explaining how Eph 1:13 doesn't support my opinion? That would be a start.

 

[FreeGrace]

I understand that it is impossible to crucify Christ again literally. However, "those" that did literally crucify Christ is exactly and quite literally who this passage speaks of. And they were NOT believers in Christ!

I read it differently. As do many many scholars.

I believe the point is that those believers who return to animal sacrifice in order to avoid persecution are firgurately crucifying the Son of God again, which puts Him to open shame.

Claiming that those that did (literally) crucify Him were believers simply must be inserted into this passage in order to come to that conclusion.

'For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, __'believed at one time'_, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.'

Yes, they (indeed the ones that literally crucifed Him) were "once enlightened". Heck, they had the very Son of God, the light of the world, literally speaking directly to them. Now that's enlightenment! Did they accept and believe the light??? No.

I believe the writer is referring to Jewish believers who either returned to or are considering returning to animal sacrifice. Note the phrase "then have fallen away".

I really don't see how this passage would be referring to unbelievers who literally crucified Christ. How were they ever "enlightened", or "tasted of the heavenly gift", or "been made partakers of the Holy Spirit", or "tasted the good word of God"?

Those who crucified Christ never fit that description. They hated Him from the beginning.

Yes, they tasted the "heavenly gift" and the "good Word of God".

No, I don't believe those who literally crucified Christ did.

Heck, they had the 'bread of life' literally at their fingertips. Did they 'eat' the bread and believe Him??? No! They literally had His flesh wiped and put Him to open shame and crucifed His flesh.

They hated Him from the beginning.

Yes, they were "made partakers of the Holy Spirit".

I don't see how. In fact, prior to the day of Pentecost, only the 11 disciples received the Holy Spirit.

Heck, there were made to be, quite literally, the very men that fullfilled all the Holy Spirit's prophecies about who would cause the coming Christ (the Messiah) to suffer and die on the Roman cross.

I don't see this as being "partaker" wth the Holy Spirit.

Did they 'believe' He is Messiah, the Son of God??? No! Nor does this Text say they did or even imply it (if read without bias).

Those who crucified Christ hated Him from the beginning. There is nothing in this passage that would describe them.

 

[JLB]

I've already explained how one who disagrees with my opinion regarding what Scripture means. But it seems just repeating oneself is easier to do and requires a lot less work.


I keep reading this, but have seen no evidence or support for your own opinion.


Well, I, for one, consider Eph 1:13 to be Scripture. So your claim is false.

However, how about explaining how Eph 1:13 doesn't support my opinion? That would be a start.

When the scripture is written out, with it's context, it clearly shows us the truth of Jesus words, which is why you never post His words, but rather, you post your own words, and leave a reference to a scripture instead.


26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
John 10:26-28

His sheep, are those who hear His voice, and He knows them, and they follow Him.

It is to those, who hear His voice, and know Him, and who follow Him, that He gives eternal life.

Hear, know, follow are all conditional in the present tense.

• Hear: Strong's G191 - akouō

1. to be endowed with the faculty of hearing, not deaf
2. to hear
   1. to attend to, consider what is or has been said
   2. to understand, perceive the sense of what is said
3. to hear something
   1. to perceive by the ear what is announced in one's presence
   2. to get by hearing learn
   3. a thing comes to one's ears, to find out, learn
   4. to give ear to a teaching or a teacher
   5. to comprehend, to understand

• Know: - Strong's G1097 - ginōskō

1. to learn to know, come to know, get a knowledge of perceive, feel
   1. to become known
2. to know, understand, perceive, have knowledge of
   1. to understand
   2. to know
3. Jewish idiom for sexual intercourse between a man and a woman
   
   
4. to become acquainted with, to know

Jesus is teaching us that He has a intimate personal relationship with those who are called "His sheep".

He goes on to teach in John 17:3 that eternal life is "knowing" Him, in which He uses this same word.

John 17:3

Paul expounds on this idea of "knowing", and teaches us that we are joined to the Lord in an intimate personal relationship.

But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him. 1 Corinthians 6:17

• Follow Me: Strong's G190 - akoloutheō

1. to follow one who precedes, join him as his attendant, accompany him
2. to join one as a disciple, become or be his disciple
   1. side with his party

• Those who hear, consider, attend to, and understand His Voice, so that they know Him by being connected to Him, and follow Him, and are joined to Him as an attendant, are those to whom He gives eternal life to.

These words of Jesus from John 10:27-28 are a far cry from your biased onesided, opinion, that says:

Jesus promised that those who receive eternal life will never perish, in John 10:28.


JLB

 

[JLB]

I believe the point is that those believers who return to animal sacrifice in order to avoid persecution are firgurately crucifying the Son of God again, which puts Him to open shame.

Agreed!


JLB

 

[JLB]

I really don't see how this passage would be referring to unbelievers who literally crucified Christ. How were they ever "enlightened", or "tasted of the heavenly gift", or "been made partakers of the Holy Spirit", or "tasted the good word of God"?

Those who crucified Christ never fit that description. They hated Him from the beginning.

 

[FreeGrace]

When the scripture is written out, with it's context, it clearly shows us the truth of Jesus words, which is why you never post His words, but rather, you post your own words, and leave a reference to a scripture instead.

This has been repeated a number of times, but at no time has anyone explained HOW the context changes anything I've posted.

26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
John 10:26-28

His sheep, are those who hear His voice, and He knows them, and they follow Him.

Is this how one becomes one of His sheep? No. Just read the WHOLE chapter and especially v.9 to learn HOW one becomes saved, or "one of His sheep". v.27 simply describes what His sheep do. But NOT to get saved. That was covered in v.9.

It is to those, who hear His voice, and know Him, and who follow Him, that He gives eternal life.

This sadly twists v.28 completely out of what it clearly SAYS. v.28 SAYS He gives them (His sheep) eternal life and they will never perish.

But some will continue to miss the fact that the SOLE CRITERIA for never perishing is to simply receive eternal life.

Hear, know, follow are all conditional in the present tense.

More abuse of the present tense. All of which is refuted by the frequent use of the aorist tense for 'believe'.

 

[JLB]

More abuse of the present tense. All of which is refuted by the frequent use of the aorist tense for 'believe'.

No Scripture, just opinion about what "some other" verb means.

This sadly twists v.28 completely out of what it clearly SAYS. v.28 SAYS He gives them (His sheep) eternal life and they will never perish.

But some will continue to miss the fact that the SOLE CRITERIA for never perishing is to simply receive eternal life.

The criteria for receiving eternal life is the result of being one of His sheep: one who hears His voice, knows and follows Him.

26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
John 10:26-28

It is to those, who hear His voice, and know Him, and who follow Him, that He gives eternal life.

Hear, know, follow are all conditional in the present tense.

• Hear: Strong's G191 - akouō

1. to be endowed with the faculty of hearing, not deaf
2. to hear
   1. to attend to, consider what is or has been said
   2. to understand, perceive the sense of what is said
3. to hear something
   1. to perceive by the ear what is announced in one's presence
   2. to get by hearing learn
   3. a thing comes to one's ears, to find out, learn
   4. to give ear to a teaching or a teacher
   5. to comprehend, to understand

• Know: - Strong's G1097 - ginōskō

1. to learn to know, come to know, get a knowledge of perceive, feel
   1. to become known
2. to know, understand, perceive, have knowledge of
   1. to understand
   2. to know
3. Jewish idiom for sexual intercourse between a man and a woman
   
   
4. to become acquainted with, to know

Jesus is teaching us that He has a intimate personal relationship with those who are called "His sheep".

He goes on to teach in John 17:3 that eternal life is "knowing" Him, in which He uses this same word.

John 17:3

Paul expounds on this idea of "knowing", and teaches us that we are joined to the Lord in an intimate personal relationship.

But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him. 1 Corinthians 6:17

• Follow Me: Strong's G190 - akoloutheō

1. to follow one who precedes, join him as his attendant, accompany him
2. to join one as a disciple, become or be his disciple
   1. side with his party

• Those who hear, consider, attend to, and understand His Voice, so that they know Him by being connected to Him, and follow Him, and are joined to Him as an attendant, are those to whom He gives eternal life to.

These words of Jesus from John 10:27-28 are a far cry from your biased onesided, opinion, that says:

Jesus promised that those who receive eternal life will never perish, in John 10:28.


JLB

 

[Nathan]

Do you want to change your answer to whether these men that crucifed the Son of God were saved from no, to yes?


The rulers of the Jews that crucifed the Son of God most certainly did not understand the Word of God. If they had, they would not have crucifed Him. Good point!


Did the Jewish leaders the crucifed the Son of God have eyes and hearts that understood what God prepared??? No.


Yes, to "us" that have faith in the Son of God the Spirit has revealed things not revealed to those who do not have faith in the Son of God (like the ones that crucifed Him).


No.

Interesting that you break up passages like that. It might help you to see things better if you don't break things up and read them in context.

So, according to you, someone cannot share in the Spirit and not have Him work in their life.

Nathan said: ↑
Are you indicating that the someone can share in the Spirit of God, but not actually have Him at work in their life?

You said "No"

So, then that only leaves the other option. How can someone have the Spirit of God at work in their life, yet not be transformed? How do you account for this?

Rom 8:14
For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

Do you believe this passage is true?

 

[Nathan]

But some will continue to miss the fact that the SOLE CRITERIA for never perishing is to simply receive eternal life.

Whats the difference between faith and eternal life to you?

 

[FreeGrace]

No Scripture, just opinion about what "some other" verb means.

Your charge is empty. The aorist tense, not "some other verb", refutes your abuse of the present tense used with 'believe'. Anyone can look up on line and learn about all the Greek verbs:
http://www.ntgreek.org/learn_nt_greek/inter-tense.htm

The criteria for receiving eternal life is the result of being one of His sheep: one who hears His voice, knows and follows Him.

26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
John 10:26-28

Your claim is a clear mis-read of the passage. It is "My sheep" who receive eternal life. And NO ONE becomes one of His sheep by "following Him". If that were true, there'd be a verse or two that says so.

So, where is such a verse?

What is clear from John 10:26-28 is that one will NEVER PERISH by simply receiving eternal life.

Which agrees completely with Paul's teaching that eternal life is a gift of God (Rom 6:23) and that the gifts of God are irrevocable (Rom 11:29. So, it's quite obvious that eternal life is irrevocable.

iow, those who have received that gift will never perish.

It is to those, who hear His voice, and know Him, and who follow Him, that He gives eternal life.

Please show me any verse that says that's how one receives eternal life.

These words of Jesus from John 10:27-28 are a far cry from your biased onesided, opinion, that says:

Jesus promised that those who receive eternal life will never perish, in John 10:28.
JLB

The verse says exactly what I have said. Quite the opposite of what you've claimed.

Again, Jesus said, "I give them (My sheep) eternal life. And they will never perish."

If there are any verses that tell us that eternal life is given on the basis of following, etc, then why haven't any of them been shared yet?

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"But some will continue to miss the fact that the SOLE CRITERIA for never perishing is to simply receive eternal life."

Whats the difference between faith and eternal life to you?

Not sure where this question comes from. Certainly not from what I posted.

The word 'faith' is a noun and means 'what is believed'. To say "my faith" refers to what I personally believe.

Faith can apply to any religion and Christianity, which is not a religion.

However, eternal life is defined as a gift of God in Rom 6:23, and God's gifts are irrevocable per Rom 11:29.

 

[JLB]

Your charge is empty. The aorist tense, not "some other verb", refutes your abuse of the present tense used with 'believe'. Anyone can look up on line and learn about all the Greek verbs:
http://www.ntgreek.org/learn_nt_greek/inter-tense.htm


Your claim is a clear mis-read of the passage. It is "My sheep" who receive eternal life. And NO ONE becomes one of His sheep by "following Him". If that were true, there'd be a verse or two that says so.

So, where is such a verse?

What is clear from John 10:26-28 is that one will NEVER PERISH by simply receiving eternal life.

Which agrees completely with Paul's teaching that eternal life is a gift of God (Rom 6:23) and that the gifts of God are irrevocable (Rom 11:29. So, it's quite obvious that eternal life is irrevocable.

iow, those who have received that gift will never perish.


Please show me any verse that says that's how one receives eternal life.


The verse says exactly what I have said. Quite the opposite of what you've claimed.

Again, Jesus said, "I give them (My sheep) eternal life. And they will never perish."

If there are any verses that tell us that eternal life is given on the basis of following, etc, then why haven't any of them been shared yet?

Again your response contains no scripture.

The criteria for receiving eternal life is the result of being one of His sheep: one who hears His voice, knows and follows Him.

26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
John 10:26-28

It is to those, who hear His voice, and know Him, and who follow Him, that He gives eternal life.

Hear, know, follow are all conditional in the present tense.

• Hear: Strong's G191 - akouō

1. to be endowed with the faculty of hearing, not deaf
2. to hear
   1. to attend to, consider what is or has been said
   2. to understand, perceive the sense of what is said
3. to hear something
   1. to perceive by the ear what is announced in one's presence
   2. to get by hearing learn
   3. a thing comes to one's ears, to find out, learn
   4. to give ear to a teaching or a teacher
   5. to comprehend, to understand

• Know: - Strong's G1097 - ginōskō

1. to learn to know, come to know, get a knowledge of perceive, feel
   1. to become known
2. to know, understand, perceive, have knowledge of
   1. to understand
   2. to know
3. Jewish idiom for sexual intercourse between a man and a woman
   
   
4. to become acquainted with, to know

Jesus is teaching us that He has a intimate personal relationship with those who are called "His sheep".

He goes on to teach in John 17:3 that eternal life is "knowing" Him, in which He uses this same word.

John 17:3

Paul expounds on this idea of "knowing", and teaches us that we are joined to the Lord in an intimate personal relationship.

But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him. 1 Corinthians 6:17

• Follow Me: Strong's G190 - akoloutheō

1. to follow one who precedes, join him as his attendant, accompany him
2. to join one as a disciple, become or be his disciple
   1. side with his party

• Those who hear, consider, attend to, and understand His Voice, so that they know Him by being connected to Him, and follow Him, and are joined to Him as an attendant, are those to whom He gives eternal life to.

JLB

 

[JLB]

Please show me any verse that says that's how one receives eternal life.

eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; Romans 2:7



JLB