A call for good samaritans

[Guest]

I am not sure that Gandhi's excuse is going to stand up while God judges him. The truth is that Gandhi rejected Jesus Christ.

Regardless if his 'excuse' stands up or not - that was not the point of my post.

The point of my post was in regards to the cliche "love the sinner, hate the sin."

The truth is that while it is a nice saying - we do not always live it out.

All to often the sin and the sinner are lumped into one.

Solo - if you do not mind me asking, why have you not responded to my post on 'buying a sword'? I was under the impression from you, that if such a thread was started that we would discuss it. Was I mislead?

 

[Veritas]

aLoneVoice,

Personally, I think it is incredibly hard to live out. God is the only one who can live that out to the fullest. He absolutely hates sin, and by His nature cannot tolerate sin. We all definately deserve to be destroyed. But He loved us so much He gave His only Son, to die for us, to give us life.

We make an effort, but we're imperfect people like everyone else. Ultimately, no one should follow "us" anyways, which apparently Gandhi didn't understand. People should follow Jesus.

I think we should keep the saying "love the sinner, hate the sin" rather than give it up because some think it's too cliche. Its a good reminder.

By the way, did you want to talk about my leap of faith into Christianity rather than other religions? Maybe you or I could open up a new thread. I don't really understand why though, considering it seems you are Christian. Unless you are still searching?

 

[Solo]

Regardless if his 'excuse' stands up or not - that was not the point of my post.

The point of my post was in regards to the cliche "love the sinner, hate the sin."

The truth is that while it is a nice saying - we do not always live it out.

All to often the sin and the sinner are lumped into one.

Solo - if you do not mind me asking, why have you not responded to my post on 'buying a sword'? I was under the impression from you, that if such a thread was started that we would discuss it. Was I mislead?

I agree that one is to love the sinner but not the sin. When you love a sinner, do you allow them to remain ignorant of the truth? Do you tell them the error of their way so that they are not harmed in this life or for all eternity?

In answer to the Sword thread, I posted the Scripture, but it appears that it did not post or was accidently removed. After I post in a thread I answer by the emails that I recieve. I receive about 20 emails per day from the forum, and I am not able at times to search all threads. I will look at the thread and post in answer to any of your questions or statements.

 

[Guest]

aLoneVoice,

Personally, I think it is incredibly hard to live out. God is the only one who can live that out to the fullest. He absolutely hates sin, and by His nature cannot tolerate sin. We all definately deserve to be destroyed. But He loved us so much He gave His only Son, to die for us, to give us life.

We make an effort, but we're imperfect people like everyone else. Ultimately, no one should follow "us" anyways, which apparently Gandhi didn't understand. People should follow Jesus.

I think we should keep the saying "love the sinner, hate the sin" rather than give it up because some think it's too cliche. Its a good reminder.

A good reminder perhaps, but like you said very hard to live out. And dare I say it has been used as an excuse to excuse away intollerant message of Christians.

While I agree we are to follow Christ, as followers are we not also 'respesentatives'? If I claim I am a Christian, then my actions should follow in line. I believe what Gandhi was getting at was that the actions of those who called themselves Christians did not reflect kindly on the One they said they were following.

[/quote]By the way, did you want to talk about my leap of faith into Christianity rather than other religions? Maybe you or I could open up a new thread. I don't really understand why though, considering it seems you are Christian. Unless you are still searching?[/quote]

It appears that this thread has taken a few twists and turns. I was disussing the 'leap of faith' from an athesist or non-Christian point of view.

If ultimately we are talking about life after death and where we spend eternity or how to get into heave or however you want to phrase it - for someone with a different belief or non-belief - do you not think there needs to be a strong assurance that the leap you are asking them to take is the 'correct one'. Therefore, I do not believe the discussion is about 'taking a leap' but more imporantly making sure the one that they take is the 'right one'.

 

[TanNinety]

It appears that this thread has taken a few twists and turns. I was disussing the 'leap of faith' from an athesist or non-Christian point of view.

I posted this topic in the 'General Talk' so I could allow the twists and turns .
Everyone has already taken their leap of faith even the atheist, with the exception of course of agnostics. But is it the 'leap of faith' alone that saves?

You have brought up two interesting points which I would like to take into discussion.

1. While I agree we are to follow Christ, as followers are we not also 'respesentatives'?

Our hypothetical samaritan, was he a representative for Christ? Christ certainly seemed to think so, for He used him in a parable. So, are the representatives of Christ only christians OR anyone who does the will of the Father in heaven like Christ seemed to say? Certainly the samaritan though neither a christian nor a jew was a better representative according to Christ than the temple priest or anyone who follows the 'true' religion.

2. I do not believe the discussion is about 'taking a leap' but more imporantly making sure the one that they take is the 'right one'.

What puzzles me about the good samaritan is he has certainly not taken the 'leap of faith' in the 'right' direction according to many of us for he followed samaritanism which preached another YHWH. But he stands a greater chance of being justified by the Son of God on judgment day than the one who managed to make the right leap of faith.

James 2:18 Now someone may argue, "Some people have faith; others have good deeds." I say, "I can't see your faith if you don't have good deeds, but I will show you my faith through my good deeds."

That last part of the verse sticks out to me. Christians say show your works because you have faith. James said that he will show his faith from his works. Getting back to the samaritan, was he showing his faith by his good deeds? The outward religion he was following was not Christianity, but the faith that showed from his work implies that he was following the commandments of the one True YHWH. Is that what matters?

 

[Veritas]

TanNinety wrote:
1. While I agree we are to follow Christ, as followers are we not also 'respesentatives'?

Yes. But I would say the samaritan would definately be recpetive to Christ.

2. I do not believe the discussion is about 'taking a leap' but more imporantly making sure the one that they take is the 'right one'.

What puzzles me about the good samaritan is he has certainly not taken the 'leap of faith' in the 'right' direction according to many of us for he followed samaritanism which preached another YHWH. But he stands a greater chance of being justified by the Son of God on judgment day than the one who managed to make the right leap of faith.

Alot of the Jewish people of that day were following another YHWH. How do you distinguish between the right and wrong one? Basically, I believe all who did not follow Jesus ended up following another YHWH. I think the samaritan would have followed Jesus had he met up with Him and/or heard of Him. I think James is saying that he, personally cant see faith without deeds. Which I agree with. But remember, the Lord looks at the heart.

 

[Guest]

Alot of the Jewish people of that day were following another YHWH. How do you distinguish between the right and wrong one? Basically, I believe all who did not follow Jesus ended up following another YHWH. I think the samaritan would have followed Jesus had he met up with Him and/or heard of Him. I think James is saying that he, personally cant see faith without deeds. Which I agree with. But remember, the Lord looks at the heart.

Perhaps he 'would have' followed or not - that we do not know. So the question still remains - is it about having the 'right religion/relationship" or about haveing the 'right actions'?

According to the Parable, it would appear 'right actions'.

 

[Rick W]

I believe "actions" is a sign of growth in maturing with Christ. As one becomes more like Him the actions follow. I don't believe the actions get you closer to Christ but getting closer to Christ developes the actions. Therefore the more faith the more good works. However, one CAN be decieved of the quality of faith in another by their works if those works are motivated by a works-centered theology and not a Christ-centered heart.

 

[Guest]

I believe "actions" is a sign of growth in maturing with Christ. As one becomes more like Him the actions follow. I don't believe the actions get you closer to Christ but getting closer to Christ developes the actions. Therefore the more faith the more good works. However, one CAN be decieved of the quality of faith in another by their works if those works are motivated by a works-centered theology and not a Christ-centered heart.

If actions are a sign of growth of maturity or getting closer to Christ - and getting closer to Christ developes those actions....

How do you explain a Mother Theresa or even a Gandhi or a whole host of other people that explempify the actions of the "Good Samaratin" but are not "Christian"?

And how do you know you are being 'deceived'?

Not to mention that the exact opposite can be true as well - one can be so-focused on having the "right" theology that the actions are not there.

 

[Veritas]

aloneVoicewrote:
Perhaps he 'would have' followed or not - that we do not know. So the question still remains - is it about having the 'right religion/relationship" or about haveing the 'right actions'?

According to the Parable, it would appear 'right actions'.

Its about having the right relationship. We should step back a bit and remember this is a parable. Something I forgot to do in postulating about the samaritan in my previous post. Do you remember what the man asked of Jesus in the first place?

And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and put Him to the test, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?"
Luke 10:25

Catch that? He wanted to know what to he could do. I can speak for myself that I cannot do what that samaritan does, the standard is too high for me. As Potluck said it illustrates an ethical level I can strive for. But the only person who can do what the samaritan does is Jesus. He was willing to touch the unclean. He was willing to go to the lost, the outcast, and the needy. And, like the Samaritan, Jesus was an outcast in the eyes of the Lawyers, Priests, Scribes, Pharisees, and Saducees.

So it comes down to faith in Jesus, and a relationship with Him.

How do you explain a Mother Theresa or even a Gandhi or a whole host of other people that explempify the actions of the "Good Samaratin" but are not "Christian"?

Well, if they are perfect like the samaritan then they've earned their right to heaven now haven't they.

And how do you know you are being 'deceived'?

By what they say about Jesus and their fruit.

 

[Rick W]

John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

 

[Guest]

Veritas - You would not be able to show kindness to someone in the same manner that the Samaritan did? The samaritan did not have a relationship with Jesus - nor does it mention that the samaritan was anywhere near perfect.

The parable of the good samaritan is about learning who one's neighbor is.

In fact, Jesus never tells the laywer that he needed to have a relationship with Jesus. Rather, Jesus says "Go and do the same."

Rather Jesus tells the laywer that he needs to Love God and Love your Neighbor.

 

[TanNinety]

I do like the point Veritas raised. The lawyer indeed was baiting a question testing Jesus rather than trying to seek the answer in sincerity. But regardless of how the questions were asked, Jesus always replied with truth. This wasn’t the first time He was being tried with questions, so we cannot assume that He was giving an impossible answer. So Jesus’ answer still stands true.

One more peculiar thing I noticed about the parable:
The question asked of Jesus was “who then is my neighbor?â€Â
In response Jesus asked, “who then is the neighbor of the one who fell by the thieves?†The answer being, Samaritan, the one who showed mercy is the neighbor.

So the answer to the initial question asked is “the one who helps you and shows mercy when you are in need is your neighborâ€Â.

That is a beautiful truth. We as Christians tend to alienate anyone who does not believe as we do. We only call the ones who share our religion as “brothers†and “sisters†in Christ. The parable teaches that a muslim or an atheist or a hindu or a samaritan can be our neighbor if they see us in need and help us.

I realized that the parable is not trying to teach you to do the right actions but to realize that the one who is doing the right actions is your neighbor. The actual call to action and to be a neighbor comes when Jesus said, “go do the same†mimicking the actions of the Samaritan by being a neighbor to someone else. It is not important who your neighbor is but to who you were a neighbor.

 

[Rick W]

aLoneVoice, TanNinety,

I see what you're saying now.
Agreed.

 

[Veritas]

aLoneVoice, yes, I agree that the parable of the good samaritan is about learning who one's neighbor is. I agree that this parable attacks racial and other prejudices. I also think TanNinety brought up another relevant facet to this parable.

I just don't think this parable is teaching our path to salvation. It would be if we could actually do this sort of thing all the time. Maybe Potluck and TanNinety are getting something I'm not because it seemed the discussion was going that way.

And to answer your question, sometimes I can show kindness, but not always that well, and sometimes not at all. Sometimes I will, but I don't want to. I'm not saying that its not worth striving for though.

As far as the samaritan being perfect, to me, its a parable. And everything the samaritan does in that parable is right. I think Jesus is proving something greater than the exact answer anticipated. Jesus actually refuses to define who a neighbor is, instead He asked a question that leads to conclusions more profound than the initial question.

 

[Rick W]

I just don't think this parable is teaching our path to salvation.

It's not.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

I seriously doubt anyone can love their neighbor as themselves without fail, the heart just won't allow that to happen. Somewhere, someplace one will mess up, maybe not in deed but in heart.

Matthew 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

And how do I deny myself?

Romans 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Romans 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Romans 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Romans 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Romans 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Romans 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Romans 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Romans 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

So, can I really love my neighbor as I love myself for the rest of my life without err? I seriously doubt that.

1Corinthians 15:31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.

As the Jews could not follow the law nor can we. Even Paul struggled with sin. If we could truly and absolutely love our neighbors as ourselves then indeed we become like Him but that's not going to happen while we are still in the body.

Does that mean I should toss the command to love my neighbor simply because I can't do it always? Of course not. I can absolutely allow the principle to help guide my ways. Will I fail? Yes. Will I abandon the principle? No. Can I learn from the mistakes? I'd be a fool if I don't.

If we look to ourselves, inwardly, for guidance then our focus is in the wrong direction. We need to focus outside ourselves toward Christ and what He did on the cross. As Peter walked on water focusing on Christ but sank when he took His eyes from Him and "saw the wind boisterous, he was afraid" so shall we sink if we do the same.

 

[TanNinety]

Salvation implicitly, is being able to inherit the kingdom of God. Of all the parables is the good samaritan the only parable that is not talking about our path into the kingdom of God? Were there any other parables that did not pertain to the kingdom of God?

Matthew 5:3–12 “Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are they who mourn, for they will be comforted. Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the land. Blessed are they who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be satisfied. Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy. Blessed are the clean of heart, for they will see God. Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God. Blessed are they who are persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are you when they insult you and persecute you and utter every kind of evil against you (falsely) because of me. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward will be great in heaven.â€Â

Was Yashuah again wasting His time telling us who will inherit the kingdom of God? Was He preaching human conduct by which it is impossible to attain the kingdom of God by walking the way that is in Him?

Matthew 11:30 For My yoke [is] easy, and my burden is light.
What we are calling impossible, Yashuah is saying easy and light.

The poor in spirit, who mourn, who are meek, who hunger and thirst for righteousness, merciful, clean of heart, peacemakers, who are persecuted for righteousness, THESE shall inherit the kingdom of God. Yashuah has brought Salvation to THEM.

Religious Christianity has become an exclusive club. We require membership for salvation. Christ’s membership for the kingdom of God wasn’t based on religion, doctrine, dogma, it was based on the truth. The truth that He is, the path through the narrow gate.

The Samaritan, as ignorant of the religion he was following was still, meek, his heart mourned for his neighbor in distress, was merciful, was a peacemaker and if his heart was clean and hungered for righteousness, Christ said this is the qualification I need to lead you into the kingdom of God. He declared for their's is the kingdom of God.

Why then do we as Christians act as if we reserve the right to meekness, cleanness of heart, mercy, hunger for righteousness? If we see a good non-christian we say he is good by human standards and not by God's as if all the above qualities are given by God to the exclusive christians. Only God knows the true heart of a man. When the sheep and the goats are separated by Yashuah, I don’t think it will depend on doctrine of a person but how much a person has aligned himself into the law of God that He has written in everyone’s heart without excuse equally.

The hypothetical Samaritan in my opinion will find himself in the fold of the sheep.

James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

I have heard the expression when two disagree on a doctrine they each say "you are serving a different God". To me that makes as much sense as "you are riding my pink unicorn that I found under my bed". There isn't one for you to be riding on, just as there exists not "another" God to even serve. You either serve one God, either the right way or the wrong way. If we serve Him the wrong way following any religion, even christianity, we will not inherit the kingdom of God. But if we serve Him like Yashuah, The Truth, The Word of God has shown us to serve, then and only then shall we inherit the kingdom and have eternal life granted to us by The Son.

The samaritan did just that, he served God the way Yashuah told us to serve God.

 

[Rick W]

Where does grace fit in?

 

[Guest]

Tan - is conduct alone enough for salvation? It appears that you are saying that it is.

Let's say you are correct - does ones conduct have to be 'right' all the time for salvation?

I would contend that you are partially correct - in that if our conduct was 100 percent 'right', blameless, just like Christ - then yes - our actions would be enough for salvation.

The question is: is any of us like that?

 

[TanNinety]

PotLuck’s and aLoneVoice’s questions tie in together for my answer.

Is conduct alone enough for salvation?
Yes. Demonstrably true – Yashuah.

Does ones conduct have to be 'right' all the time for salvation?
Preferably - Yes. Don’t misunderstand that I am expecting perfect obedience from everyone similar to Christ. This feat is not possible also for me even though it is probable. There is a difference between being right all the time and being in right standing with God all the time. If we are not perfect all the time, then how is salvation possible for us? This is where PotLuck’s question comes in. Grace fits in. Grace is extended to a repentant heart. A tax collector is more in right standing with God sitting back not being able to lift his eyes up to heaven being ashamed to show himself worthy to God than the Pharisee who thinks he has the right answers, right doctrine but no repentance in his heart for his conduct.

Mark 10:26-27 They were even more astonished and said to Him, "Then who can be saved?" Looking at them, Yashuah said, "With men it is impossible, but not with God; for all things are possible with God."

Yashuah didn’t say all things are possible ’for’ but ’with’ God. Salvation is possible for man with God.

How is it possible for man with God?
Ecclesiastes 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this [is] the whole [duty] of man.

Now is this conduct/obedience being talked about “ALL†the time?
Isaiah 1:15-19 So when you spread out your hands {in prayer,} I will hide My eyes from you; Yes, even though you multiply prayers, I will not listen. Your hands are covered with blood. Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean; Remove the evil of your deeds from My sight. Cease to do evil, Learn to do good; Seek justice, Reprove the ruthless, Defend the orphan, Plead for the widow. Come now, and let us reason together," Says the LORD, "Though your sins are as scarlet, They will be as white as snow; Though they are red like crimson, They will be like wool. If you consent and obey, You will eat the best of the land;

Wow! Sins as scarlet will be white as snow, washed away like there was never sin in our lives. Though our sin mark us red like crimson, we will be like the wool as if there was never a blemish, as if we were always perfect. How? If we consent and be obedient to the law of God. Where is this law available? Yashuah has revealed it to all of us in our hearts regardless of if we call on His name or not, so on the judgment day we all stand without excuse for our conduct.

The questions is not are we right all the time but are we in right standing with God all the time? If we repent and turn from wickedness, God promises in Isaiah He will make us white as snow. And when we are white as snow, we are perfect in God’s eyes. All it takes is repentance and Yashuah will extend God's grace and forgiveness.