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A call for good samaritans

Why did Christ have to die?

He could as well come as a prophet to say the things he needed to say to accomplish what you said.

And you forgot to mention His ressurection in all this.

The gospel is Christ died, Christ was buried and Christ rose again.

The gospel isn't I repent, I do good and I recieve grace after all I can do.
 
PotLuck said:
Why did Christ have to die?

He could as well come as a prophet to say the things he needed to say to accomplish what you said.

And you forgot to mention His ressurection in all this.

The gospel is Christ died, Christ was buried and Christ rose again.

The gospel isn't I repent, I do good and I recieve grace after all I can do.
Click to expand...
Straight to the point, Rick. Nice.

Why did Chist have to die? Why was there a sacrifice and the distribution of blood just before the Exodus? To protect any of them from dying during God's wrath against Egypt. One thing that stands out is Passover protected them from physical death. We have protection from spiritual death; the second death.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Now tie that in with the Day of Atonement. Another blood sacrifice, where the High Priest would atone for their sins, but for just one year. It was incomplete and just 'covered' their sins.

Also, since Jesus conquered the physical death, His blood sacrifice and atonement for our sin is final; complete.

Romans 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

He IS our High Priest! He makes it complete. What transpired in the Old Testament was a foreshadow of things to come.

Hebrews 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Salvation by the Grace of God through our Faith is a gift!
Maybe it's me but I fail to see where this Grace is conditional.

Matthew 26:26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
Matthew 26:27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
Matthew 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Matthew 26:29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.
 
Thank you guys, you have given me things to think about for the past few days. I think the primary question in the posts was ‘why did Christ have to die?’

I do not see any reason why Christ had to die. Before you dismiss me please do consider the following I have to offer, for I gave it a lot of prayerful thinking.
Luke 20:9-19 Now Jesus turned to the people again and told them this story: "A man planted a vineyard, leased it out to tenant farmers, and moved to another country to live for several years. At grape-picking time, he sent one of his servants to collect his share of the crop. But the farmers attacked the servant, beat him up, and sent him back empty-handed. So the owner sent another servant, but the same thing happened; he was beaten up and treated shamefully, and he went away empty-handed. A third man was sent and the same thing happened. He, too, was wounded and chased away." `What will I do?' the owner asked himself. `I know! I'll send my cherished son. Surely they will respect him.' "But when the farmers saw his son, they said to each other, `Here comes the heir to this estate. Let's kill him and get the estate for ourselves!' So they dragged him out of the vineyard and murdered him. "What do you suppose the owner of the vineyard will do to those farmers?" Jesus asked. "I'll tell you-he will come and kill them all and lease the vineyard to others." "But God forbid that such a thing should ever happen," his listeners protested. Jesus looked at them and said, "Then what do the Scriptures mean?

`The stone rejected by the builders
has now become the cornerstone.'

All who stumble over that stone will be broken to pieces, and it will crush anyone on whom it falls." When the teachers of religious law and the leading priests heard this story, they wanted to arrest Jesus immediately because they realized he was pointing at them-that they were the farmers in the story. But they were afraid there would be a riot if they arrested him.

The teachers of the religious law realized they were portrayed as the ‘farmers’. We know that the Son and heir of the estate is Christ. Since we identified that, what was the intention of the Owner to send His Son? For the Son to collect the share of the crop, because His authority as the Owner’s cherished Son would be surely respected

The initial intention of sending the Son was never for a sacrifice. The Owner never sent the Son so He could be murdered.

So what was the purpose of Yashuah’s first coming? Why don’t we let Christ Himself tell us what His purpose was?
John 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

The ‘cause’ He came into the world was so that He could bear witness unto the TRUTH. His ‘cause’ was not to end up on a cross as a sacrifice.

Is sacrifice required for righteousness?
As much as I dislike quoting Paul, may be it will mean more to you.
Romans 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life.
Offence brought death, righteousness brings life. I see it as Christ’s obedient life that brought salvation not His death.

One question that has been lingering on my mind is ‘what is required to forgive sins?’
Christ under the authority of God just walked around telling people that their sins were forgiven. He did not require bloody sacrifices when He forgave. Even in the way He showed us to pray, “forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to usâ€Â. God can forgive sins just as He asked us to forgive sins. Why then do we say God requires blood for the remission of sins?

Where is forgiveness if a payment is already made with a sacrifice. That is like saying, “you owe me 1000$, I will forgive your debt if you pay ten 100$â€Â. It is contradictory. Let’s say if Christ did pay with sacrifice, then our sins have been forgiven with His sacrifice alone, there should be NO call for repentance, for that would be over paying the debt that has already been paid.

This leads me to question if God ever required sacrifice to forgive sins. Our brains seems to be accustomed into reading death, blood and sacrifice into forgiveness of sins where ever we see it.

Jeremiah 7:22-23 “For I did not speak to your fathers, or command them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices. But this is what I commanded them, saying, 'Obey My voice, and I will be your God, and you will be My people ; and you will walk in all the way which I command you, that it may be well with you.'â€Â

Then how did the fathers come up with the system of sacrifices?
Has,
Jeremiah 8:7 "Even the stork in the sky Knows her seasons; And the turtledove and the swift and the thrush Observe the time of their migration; But My people do not know the ordinance of the LORD. How can you say, 'We are wise, And the law of the LORD is with us'? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes has made it into a lie. The wise men are put to shame, They are dismayed and caught; Behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD, And what kind of wisdom do they have?
anything to do with it?


It seems to me that they exchanged the law of God for rituals and sacrifices. Certainly the people who are capable of worshipping a golden calf when they actually experienced the one true God are also capable of thinking that sacrificing blood is required for the forgiveness of sins. Why did Christ drive out the animals, pigeons and turtledoves from the temple? If sacrifices were required wouldn’t He then be going against the law of God?

Psalm 40:6 Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.

Psalm 51:16 You do not delight in sacrifice, or I would bring it; you do not take pleasure in burnt offerings.

Ezekiel 18:21-22 But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die. None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him. Because of the righteous things he has done, he will live.

Christ brought life to us through His obedience not as a sacrifice. These are my thoughts for now and I am still reviewing them.
 
There is alot in your post TanNinety,

I believe both Jesus' life AND death are important however.

I agree that God has always desired love rather than sacrifice from us, but remember what God did after the fall?

The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. Genesis 3:21

God killed an animal to cover our shame in the beginning. He instituted it. Later Abel copied that, and Cain did too, to a lesser extent.

God looked on Abel with favor for the sacrifice, but wasn't so impressed with Cain. Maybe you'd like to explore that too?
 
No offense, but you are confused by the need to humanly rationalize what God wants and requires & doesn't want nor requires. This need for a sacrificial atonement for the covering of sin was from the very beginning.

Gen 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them. (God Himself performed the first sacrifice and will partake in the last one)
Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

But like I said above, it was only temporal, God preordained the place and time to give man HIS eternal blood atonement. What better way to relate to your creation than to come to them in the flesh, then to subject Himself to a brutal death. He came into this world in the most humble way possible and eft it in the most brutal way... I can relate to that.

Jesus Himself predicted His own demise, as did the Prophest before Him. God knew this, with HIS foreknowlwdge HE had to have known!

God also commanded the Israeltes to perform this sacrifice once a year... The Day of Atonement. Really now, in order to fully understand, you need to start from the beginning and follow the common thread all the way through to Revelation. You can't just skip around and take verses from here and there, out of their Biblical, cultural and historical context.

1 John 3:16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.


Peace,
Vic
 
Veritas, I got sidetracked while composing my post and didn't see yours until I submitted. Good job. :)
 
Genesis 3:21 The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them.

I fail to see the symbolism of ‘sacrifice’ here. No where does the passage suggest that the skin or the blood of the animal was to atone for the disobedience of man. And is actually a perfect example of how our minds are tuned to read sacrifice into things.

Let’s say I run with that scripture being an example for sacrifice for sin. Doesn’t that mean the sacrifice performed by God should have atoned for the original sin and hence Adam and Eve did not have to be kicked out of the garden? If this sacrifice wasn’t sufficient then why did God require it in the garden?

I did explore into Cain and Abel’s offering. It wasn’t because Cain’s offering didn’t involve shedding of blood that God refused it but the book of Jasher gives more insight into this story.
Jasher 1:16 And unto Cain and his offering the Lord did not turn, and he did not incline to it, for he had brought from the inferior fruit of the ground before the Lord, and Cain was jealous against his brother Abel on account of this, and he sought a pretext to slay him.

No offense taken and I am not humanly trying to rationalize what God requires for forgiveness of sins (even though I admit, I am applying some human rationalization to the concept sufficiently qualifying it with scripture)

As far as prophesies and predictions go about the death of Christ, I doubt any of it involves deliberate orchestrating of it on God’s part. That would go against the parable of the tenants. The Owners intentions were not clearly to send His Son to the slaughter house to get murdered, but for His workers to respect His word and obey. Again from the parable the death of the Owners Son did not bring peace and reconciliation of the farmers to the Owner but kindled His wrath against them.

Psalm 40:6 Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.

No matter how we slice the issue, even if we try to reason away saying, “God prefers righteousness over sacrifices but sacrifices are required for remission of sins because none is righteousâ€Â, this will not make Psalm 40:6 go away. I cannot close my eyes and imagine it doesn’t read that sacrifice and offering did God not only not desire but also not require.

Ezekiel 18:21-22 But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die. None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him. Because of the righteous things he has done, he will live.
If a wicked man turn away from his wicked ways and do what is just and right, his offenses will not be remembered! Doesn't that mean that sin has been wiped off the record and why isn't any blood sacrifice asked of him?
 
TanNinety,

I don't understand how you are choosing what has relevance and what doesn't. What rule are you using to trust a book like Jasher, but not Paul's writings? Or to hinge everything on the validity of an interpretation of Psalm 40:6 but ignore other large sections of the Bible and/or question their validity?

Because God finds sacrifice pleasing in Genesis 8:20....

And He quite explicity commanded the nation of Israel to sacrifice so they could experience forgiveness of his sins...

The Burnt Offering: Leviticus 1

The Grain Offering: Leviticus 2

The Fellowship Offering: Leviticus 3

The Sin Offering: Leviticus 4

The Guilt Offering: Leviticus 5

And the Atonement Offering: Leviticus 16

Which I think is particularly relevant because this is where we get the concept of a scapegoat.

He is to lay both hands on the head of the live goat and confess over it all the wickedness and rebellion of the Israelitesâ€â€all their sinsâ€â€and put them on the goat's head. He shall send the goat away into the desert in the care of a man appointed for the task. The goat will carry on itself all their sins to a solitary place. Leviticus 16:21-22

Its in Chapter 16 we see the formula laid out:

Sin-Repentence-Atonement-Forgiveness

Christ atoned for our sins with his life AND death. It was a sacrifice for God to live with us, it was a sacrifice for God to die for us. We are completely Atoned for through Christ!

For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people. Hebrews 2:17

And I know Paul is distrusted for some reason, but I've seen him quoted so I'll do it again...

God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished. Romans 3:25
 
Look at the Holy of Holies in the OT. There was a veil, a very thick curtain separating the glory of God from the people. God spoke to us through the prophets. The people communicated to God through the high priest. Besides the routine sacrifices mentioned above there was another one where the high priest made atonement for the people once a year. (I've heard, it's not in scripture, a rope was tied around his waist before going in to be in the presence of that glory. If for some unforeseen reason he was unclean they could pull the dead body out of there.)

There was no other link between God and the people other than the priest/prophet connections. Sacrifice in blood covered the people's sins but only for a time, it had to be done continually.

Look at what happened when Christ died.

Matthew 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Ephesians 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
Ephesians 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Ephesians 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

1Corinthians 11:24 And when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

Hebrews 9:23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Hebrews 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
Hebrews 9:25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
Hebrews 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Hebrews 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Hebrews 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
Hebrews 10:21 And having a high priest over the house of God;
Hebrews 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

Hebrews is a very heavy book. There is where I believe you will find your answer.

For the Holy Spirit to dwell in us, for the Comforter to come to us, for the freedom we have in Christ, for a high priest that suits our need, for our pathway to the presence of the Father... there are many reasons His death, His burial and His ressurection is so important for our salvation. Scripture is rich with it.
In that He died we live. In that He bore shame we bear glory, in that He was buried our old selves are buried forever and in that He rose again we are raised with Him as a new creation.
We are free from works to earn our salvation through the work He already did on the cross. I'm saved, now, this minute. I was saved the night of 1998, Aug 21 alone on a back porch when He touched my heart. From that time on I was saved, from that very moment, my salvation already secured by what Christ had accomplished on the cross.
 
Thank you guys. You have given me much to mull over. I will prayerfully consider them and come back to this. I see there is a lot to read and grasp, so it will not do justice to your posts if I just read and reply without spending time with the content you have offered.

On other note PotLuck, this site may be of some interest to you. Ran into it online today and reminded me of you - http://www.tesladownunder.com/
 
Veritas said:
TanNinety,

I don't understand how you are choosing what has relevance and what doesn't. What rule are you using to trust a book like Jasher, but not Paul's writings? Or to hinge everything on the validity of an interpretation of Psalm 40:6 but ignore other large sections of the Bible and/or question their validity?

Because God finds sacrifice pleasing in Genesis 8:20....

And He quite explicity commanded the nation of Israel to sacrifice so they could experience forgiveness of his sins...
Click to expand...
Thanks again; you did exactly what I suggested Tan do;

Vic said: Really now, in order to fully understand, you need to start from the beginning and follow the common thread all the way through to Revelation. You can't just skip around and take verses from here and there, out of their Biblical, cultural and historical context.
Click to expand...

Question Veritas, did you mean to quote Genesis 8:21 also?

*edited for spelling*
 
These are the points that stood out to me as I studied Leviticus.

Leviticus 4:32 But if he brings a lamb as his offering for a sin offering, he shall bring it, a female without defect.
Does the lamb of sin offering being a female have any bearing?

Leviticus 16:10 But the goat on which the lot for the scapegoat fell shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make atonement upon it, to send it into the wilderness as the scapegoat. Leviticus 16:21-22 Then Aaron shall lay both of his hands on the head of the live goat, and confess over it all the iniquities of the sons of Israel and all their transgressions in regard to all their sins; and he shall lay them on the head of the goat and send it away into the wilderness by the hand of a man who stands in readiness. The goat shall bear on itself all their iniquities to a solitary land; and he shall release the goat in the wilderness.
What is peculiar about the above ritual is that the atonement is carried out after the goat of sin offering is sacrificed to God. The atonement goat is alive for carrying the sins away. How is this possible on the cross, if the sins were placed on the Messiah before His sacrificial death?

Leviticus 22: 22 Blind, or broken, or maimed, or having a wen, or scurvy, or scabbed, ye shall not offer these unto the LORD, nor make an offering by fire of them upon the altar unto the LORD.
PotLuck, you have quoted Paul, 1 Corinthians 11:24 And when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
If Christ’s body was broken, how then could it be offered unto the LORD as an offering or sacrifice according to Lev 22:22?

If I go with God asking for animal sacrifices to be a legitimate ordinance, then there is another issue. The difference between other religious sacrifices and the sacrifices instituted by God was that God abhorred human sacrifices. This is what sets apart the sacrifices to Baal with the sacrifices to YHWH. YHWH abhorred human sacrifices while it was carried out without condemnation by the pagans. I cannot imagine that YHWH would be a hypocrite while condemning human sacrifices of other religions but require it Himself.

According to the levitical laws Christ wasn’t even sacrificed. I somehow fail to see being nailed to the cross to be similar to being slain on the altar. The levitical law was pretty clear on who/what/where/how the sacrifice needs to be conducted. It was roman soldiers who nailed Christ not the temple priests.
Who- only priests were allowed to make sacrifices.
What- Every sacrifice had a specific animal(s), humans were never mentioned.
Where- Temple
How- Slain with a knife.
The death of Christ does not meet any of the sacrificial qualifications of Leviticus. So to use any of Leviticus to back it up seems pointless, IMO.
*******
Isaiah 1:11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices to Me?"
Says the Lord.
"I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams
And the fat of fed cattle.
I do not delight in the blood of bulls,
Or of lambs or goats.
12 When you come to appear before Me,
Who has required this from your hand,
To trample My courts?
13 Bring no more futile sacrifices;
Incense is an abomination to Me.
The New Moons, the Sabbaths, and the calling of assemblies--
I cannot endure iniquity and the sacred meeting.
14 Your New Moons and your appointed feasts
My soul hates;
They are a trouble to Me,
I am weary of bearing them.
15 When you spread out your hands,
I will hide My eyes from you;
Even though you make many prayers,
I will not hear.
Your hands are full of blood.

God is asking what the purpose of sacrifices was. Wasn’t it to temporally atone for sin? If God Himself has instituted sacrifices why would He ask so? If ‘blood’ is required to appease God because of our sin then why does God say it does not ‘delight’ Him? Shouldn’t the more we sin the more blood that is needed to delight and appease Him?

Verse 12: “Who has required this from your hand?â€Â, I mean seriously, did God forget the laws He gave in leviticus? Didn’t He say when you come before me bring an offering/sacrifice? Should we accuse God of amnesia? Incense is an abomination? He accuses, “Your hands are full of BLOODâ€Â, yet you tell me that blood is what HE requires for the remission of sins!
*******
Amos 5:21-24"I hate, I despise your religious feasts; I cannot stand your assemblies.
Even though you bring me burnt offerings and grain offerings, I will not accept them.
Though you bring choice fellowship offerings, I will have no regard for them. Away with the noise of your songs! I will not listen to the music of your harps. But let justice roll on like a river, righteousness like a never-failing stream!â€Â

Jeremiah 6:20 To what purpose cometh there to me incense from Sheba, and the sweet cane from a far country? your burnt offerings [are] not acceptable, nor your sacrifices sweet unto me.

Jeremiah 7:21-22;

Hosea 6:6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

Micah 6:6-8 Wherewith shall I come before the LORD, [and] bow myself before the high God? shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves of a year old? Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, [or] with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn [for] my transgression, the fruit of my body [for] the sin of my soul?
What are the right answers for the rhetorical questions asked by Micah?

Deuteronomy 18:10 There shall not be found among you [any one] that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, [or] that useth divination, [or] an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch
Yet we believe God made His son to hang on a cross as a sacrifice.

Jeremiah 19:4-6 "Because they have forsaken Me and have made this an alien place and have burned sacrifices in it to other gods, that neither they nor their forefathers nor the kings of Judah had {ever} known, and {because} they have filled this place with the blood of the innocent and have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Baal, a thing which I never commanded or spoke of, nor did it {ever} enter My mind; therefore, behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when this place will no longer be called Topheth or the valley of Ben-hinnom, but rather the valley of Slaughter.
Yet God can sacrifice His own Son? Is our God Baal to ask for human sacrifices?

Matthew 9:13 But go ye and learn what [that] meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Matthew 12:7 But if ye had known what [this] meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.

Even if I believed that God required blood sacrifices, to believe that He required a perfect human sacrifice sounds borderline blasphemy to me.
 
Leviticus 16:10 But the goat on which the lot for the scapegoat fell shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make atonement upon it, to send it into the wilderness as the scapegoat. Leviticus 16:21-22 Then Aaron shall lay both of his hands on the head of the live goat, and confess over it all the iniquities of the sons of Israel and all their transgressions in regard to all their sins; and he shall lay them on the head of the goat and send it away into the wilderness by the hand of a man who stands in readiness. The goat shall bear on itself all their iniquities to a solitary land; and he shall release the goat in the wilderness.

What is peculiar about the above ritual is that the atonement is carried out after the goat of sin offering is sacrificed to God. The atonement goat is alive for carrying the sins away. How is this possible on the cross, if the sins were placed on the Messiah before His sacrificial death?
Click to expand...
I'm not versed enough in OT ceremonies, so I don't know for sure if order is even important, but ponder these passages:

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. <-- atonement for sin
John 1:30 This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.
John 1:31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.
John 1:32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
John 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
John 1:34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

(Same event; different Gospel Book)

Matthew 3:13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.
Matthew 3:14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
Matthew 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
Matthew 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
Matthew 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Matthew 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.
Matthew 4:2 And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungered.

So there we have sin laid upon Jesus, then led into the wilderness and then later on in His life He is the actual sacrificial Lamb. Not sure if gender was the key but the "with a blemish" sure was. He was both the Scapegoat AND the sacrificial Lamb of God.

There is another passage that may be as useful in understanding this; the passage about Jesus and Barabbas. Matthew 27:14-26.
 
TanNinety wrote:
Even if I believed that God required blood sacrifices, to believe that He required a perfect human sacrifice sounds borderline blasphemy to me.
Click to expand...

Heh, yeah.. ever hear some of the stuff Jesus said. ;)

Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. John 6:53

Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:54

For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. John 6:55

Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. John 6:56

Jesus told us he did pour his blood out for us...

This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. Matthew 26:28

"This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many," he said to them. Mark 14:24

In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you. Luke 22:20


So... am I tying into your questions and comments at all TanNinety? We've gone way off the Original Post for sure ;)

I feel like I should address your OT posts some more. Because I can understand how God would rather have us just act right in the first place so we didn't have to sacrifice. But to say that Jesus sacrifice was not needed, I just don't agree with at all.
 
Veritas said:
... So... am I tying into your questions and comments at all TanNinety? We've gone way off the Original Post for sure ;)

I feel like I should address your OT posts some more. Because I can understand how God would rather have us just act right in the first place so we didn't have to sacrifice. But to say that Jesus sacrifice was not needed, I just don't agree with at all.
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That's ok, it seemed to be a natural progression and since there's been no call so far to go back to the OP... continue on.
 
Veritas said:
So... am I tying into your questions and comments at all TanNinety? ... :wink:
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Yes. You guys are doing a great job. I must admit that I am having difficulty looking at this subject of "sacrifice" objectively. So your stance, "... to say that Jesus sacrifice was not needed, I just don't agree with at all" is very much appreciated. This will make me dig into scripture more. I need to look deeper into your, Vic's and PotLuck's NT scripture.

As for sticking with the OP, I've opened this discussion in the 'General Talk' so we don't strictly have to stay with the main topic, but move along the twists and turns it takes us through.
 
Tan, Unfortunately I don't think we can look at "sacrifice" as objectively as God can, we are just people after all and everything is sort of subjective to something else in our minds.

Anyways, I've been looking at the NT scripture again as well, and found some additional things you might be interested in too. I think someone else mentioned to look at the book of Hebrews and I agree that is a good idea.

Hebrews 4:14-6:20 Presents Jesus as the Great High Priest

Hebrews 7 Explains the order of Melchizedek the Priest and Jesus in that role

Hebrews 8 Explains the High Priest of a New Covenant

Hebrews 9:11-28 Explains the importance of Christs Blood

and

Hebrews 10 Explains how Christs Sacrifice is once for all time

I also came across a verse that John the apostle wrote about Jesus:

He (Jesus) is the atoning sacrifice (refer to: Leviticus 16) for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. 1 John 2:2

and I really like this one because John explains love.

This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. 1 John 4:10
 
Veritas, your 1 John scripture looks like it puts the case to rest and I will accept it for now with reservations so I can still look into it. Thanks for pointing me to it.
 
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