A case for the Trinity

[Sinthesis]

You are correct again, amazing ! These verses prove that Jesus is the Son of God, and not God. Now all you need to do, is not harden your hearts, and enter into his rest. Jesus Christ is also the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, in Christ Jesus (The Revealed Mystery - The Last Adam)

Sinthesis did not suggest that these verses show that Jesus is "Son of God", He suggested that they show that Jesus is God.

Instead of thoughtful reasoning we get sleight-of-hand.

 

[Mysteryman]

I tried to engage you, and you refused.

No.

You posted verses and did not make an argument.

That is not engagement.

Drew

It is an engagement of your argument. You just refuse to follow what I am trying to show you. Scripture should not need an explanation from me. These verses in Hebrews speak for themselves and are clear and concise.

It is this way Drew, - You are like a little spoil kid, who wants it his way and only his way. That is why no one can engage you, as you will not allow them too. Hebrews 5:5

 

[Mysteryman]

You are correct again, amazing ! These verses prove that Jesus is the Son of God, and not God. Now all you need to do, is not harden your hearts, and enter into his rest. Jesus Christ is also the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, in Christ Jesus (The Revealed Mystery - The Last Adam)

Sinthesis did not suggest that these verses show that Jesus is "Son of God", He suggested that they show that Jesus is God.

Instead of thoughtful reasoning we get sleight-of-hand.

Hebrews 5:8

Hebrews 5:10

 

[Mysteryman]

I will say this once again.

This thread is not about the divinity of Christ. It is suppose to be a thread that is a case for the trinity. Not one person as of yet has established a trinity in the OT, nor in the NT.

 

[Mysteryman]

God does not dwell in temples made with hands.

He most certainly did! And the fact that He did is exactly what makes my case.

Don't construct strawmen - I never indicated that God lives in the temple post resurrection.

The point, of course, is this:

1. In the Old Testament, the temple was the place where God's presence was manifested;God's presence is whereever he pleased to make His presence known. It once was in the burning bush, etc.

2. That presence left the temple before the Babylonian exile;

3. The Old Testament is full of the promised return of YHWH to His temple;

4. Jesus claims to be the new temple;
I have already shown you, that we are the temple of God, and God dwells in us.
5. Therefore, Jesus is the embodiment of the YHWH - the place where God's presence abides.
In us, IN Christ
That's a tough one for you, of course, since you are denying this clear Biblical story.

There you go again with your pride ! Don't you ever tire of being so prideful ?

 

[shad]

The argument is what it is - a case that Jesus is acting as the embodiment of Israel's God.

You are right, Jesus is the embodiment of God. that does not make Him equal with His Father.

I agree; this statement is correct, and it also supports the Trinity.

No it does not. The Trinity claims that Jesus is equal with His Father, and Jesus clearly says He is not.

 

[Sinthesis]

Sinthesis did not suggest that these verses show that Jesus is "Son of God", He suggested that they show that Jesus is God.

Instead of thoughtful reasoning we get sleight-of-hand.

Hebrews 5:8

Hebrews 5:10

Hbr 5:11 2

 

[Sinthesis]

You are right, Jesus is the embodiment of God. that does not make Him equal with His Father.

I agree; this statement is correct, and it also supports the Trinity.

No it does not. The Trinity claims that Jesus is equal with His Father, and Jesus clearly says He is not.

Your understanding of the Trinity is flawed. Revisit the OP.

Jesus is God
The Father is God
Jesus is not the Father

 

[dadof10]

To Drew:

There you go again with your pride ! Don't you ever tire of being so prideful ?

Drew is showing remarkable restraint, as I'm sure everyone but you can see. If it were me, this thread would have been closed down 5 pages ago, which might be your goal in the long run. If you get the thread shut down, you can ignore questions AND save face.

It is extremely frustrating conversing with you due to your lack of answers to even the simplest questions.

Back off all the "prideful" smack, you are making a fool of yourself.

 

[shad]

Your understanding of the Trinity is flawed.

So you don't believe Jesus is equal with His Father?

Trinitarians say if you dont believe Jesus is equal with His Father, you are not a trinitarian.

 

[Mysteryman]

Sinthesis did not suggest that these verses show that Jesus is "Son of God", He suggested that they show that Jesus is God.

Instead of thoughtful reasoning we get sleight-of-hand.

Hebrews 5:8

Hebrews 5:10[/quote]
Hbr 5:11 2[/quote]
------------------------------------------

Hebrews 9:24

 

[Drew]

The word divinity is not in the Bible. That's why I stay away from this expression.

This is not a very good argument against the divinity of Jesus.

In fact, I suggest that the way you are approaching this, and others too, is not in keeping with the basic mode by which the Bible communicates information.

The Hebrew people who wrote the Bible were not 21st century westerners. They were not constructing a kind of "technical handbook" about God and doctrine.

So, of course, we do not get a series of clear declarative statements of "theology".

Instead, the Bible is a story about how God has worked in Israel's history. And one of the main themes is that God "deserted" Israel at the time of the exile, but has promised to visibly return to her.

To those who properly understand this basic framework, it is clear that Jesus' life constitutes the promised return of God to His people. I politely suggest that this is the way to look at the Bible - hunting for the word "divinity" in relation to Jesus, and not finding it, entirely misses the point.

 

[Drew]

I will say this once again.

This thread is not about the divinity of Christ. It is suppose to be a thread that is a case for the trinity. Not one person as of yet has established a trinity in the OT, nor in the NT.

Incorrect - substantial evidence has been presented that, indeed, Jesus is God in "essence". And you have shamelessly simply ignored those arguments. This latter statement is not "opinion" - it is demonstrable fact, as anyone can see by looking at the transcript of this thread.

You, on the other hand, do not present arguments, you list verses, occasionally insult people, and misrepresent what others have posted (as you did with Sinthesis).

Now lets be clear: showing that Jesus is indeed "God in essence" is not the entire "Trinity" argument - it is only the "Father and Son" part of the arguments. But it is a case that has been made and then simply ignored by you. So don't tell us that no one has made the case. It has indeed been made. And it appears to be so uncomfortable for you that you will not engage it.

Please don't insult our intelligence. The readers are not dummies. They know that I (and others) have presented detailed arguments that you have simply ignored. In an "open" forum like this, you can do that. But if this forum were being moderated for "proper debate protocol", you would have long ago been set straight.

Look - if other posters have not remembered, you have a rather unusual definition for "divinity". You define the word to denote "having authority". That is a rather unusual definition.

On that definition, my boss is divine, since he has "authority" over me.

 

[Free]

There you go again with your pride ! Don't you ever tire of being so prideful ?

All such statements will stop now, by everyone. If anyone cannot debate this subject in an appropriate manner, including "proper debate protocol," then I strongly suggest it is time to bow out.

 

[Free]

I will say this once again.

This thread is not about the divinity of Christ. It is suppose to be a thread that is a case for the trinity. Not one person as of yet has established a trinity in the OT, nor in the NT.

Say that all you like but that is simply not the case. Firstly, the divinity of Christ, properly defined, is central to the doctrine of the Trinity; one cannot even begin to discuss the Trinity if the divinity of Christ cannot be mentioned.

Secondly, passages and arguments supporting the Trinity have been given too many times to count but they are typically swept aside. There are verses that cannot say anything but that Jesus is God, and yes, I would say equal to the Father in a sense which I have defined several times before, never mind the whole overarching picture given to us throughout the OT and made manifest in the NT.

The entirety of Scripture is the context within which all this prooftexting must be taken into consideration, yet that is not being done.

 

[dadof10]

There you go again with your pride ! Don't you ever tire of being so prideful ?

All such statements will stop now, by everyone. If anyone cannot debate this subject in an appropriate manner, including "proper debate protocol," then I strongly suggest it is time to bow out.

OK, then....I'm out

 

[Vic C.]

Say that all you like but that is simply not the case. Firstly, the divinity of Christ, properly defined, is central to the doctrine of the Trinity; one cannot even begin to discuss the Trinity if the divinity of Christ cannot be mentioned.

Agreed! The two are inseparable in a discussion like this. If one of the points in a trinity discussion is whether or not Jesus is God, then of course, the need to discuss His divinity is necessary.

Therefore, objection overruled.

I also want to add that Free is also speaking for me when he asks (again) to be civil. (dad, you were not one of the main offenders).

totopic

 

[Drew]

Yet more evidence that Jesus sees Himself as the incarnation of Israel's God. On his final journey to Jerusalem, we have this statement from Jesus:

Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.

Jesus is drawing on this image from the book of Ruth:

"May the LORD reward your work, and your wages be full from the LORD, the God of Israel, under whose wings you have come to seek refuge."

Yet one more time - to add to all the other examples - we have Jesus setting Himself in the role of Israel's God.

This is Trinitarian theology, understood how it is means to be understood - not in terms of arid conceptual categories, but in terms of the very concrete story of Israel, abandoned by her God, and then looking keenly forward to His return to them.

Jesus is that very return of the living God to the people of Israel.

 

[Sinthesis]

Yet more evidence that Jesus sees Himself as the incarnation of Israel's God. On his final journey to Jerusalem, we have this statement from Jesus:

Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.

Jesus is drawing on this image from the book of Ruth:

"May the LORD reward your work, and your wages be full from the LORD, the God of Israel, under whose wings you have come to seek refuge."

Yet one more time - to add to all the other examples - we have Jesus setting Himself in the role of Israel's God.

This is Trinitarian theology, understood how it is means to be understood - not in terms of arid conceptual categories, but in terms of the very concrete story of Israel, abandoned by her God, and then looking keenly forward to His return to them.

Jesus is that very return of the living God to the people of Israel.

Posts like this are what make threads like this worthwhile.

 

[shad]

The word divinity is not in the Bible. That's why I stay away from this expression.

This is not a very good argument against the divinity of Jesus.

In fact, I suggest that the way you are approaching this, and others too, is not in keeping with the basic mode by which the Bible communicates information.

The Hebrew people who wrote the Bible were not 21st century westerners. They were not constructing a kind of "technical handbook" about God and doctrine.

So, of course, we do not get a series of clear declarative statements of "theology".

Instead, the Bible is a story about how God has worked in Israel's history. And one of the main themes is that God "deserted" Israel at the time of the exile, but has promised to visibly return to her.

To those who properly understand this basic framework, it is clear that Jesus' life constitutes the promised return of God to His people. I politely suggest that this is the way to look at the Bible - hunting for the word "divinity" in relation to Jesus, and not finding it, entirely misses the point.

Explain divinity please, thanks.