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A case for the Trinity

francisdesales said:
Drew said:
Why have you and MM ignored my series of detailed arguments that make the case that Jesus fulfills Old Testament "images" or models that describe God.

1. Jesus' journey to Jerusalem clearly maps to the Old Testament theme of the return of YHWH to His people. This makes Jesus the embodiment of Israel's God. Why have you (and others) simply ignored this argument?

2. Jesus quoting from Daniel 7 before Caiaphus places Jesus in the "son of man" role from that famous Old Testament chapter. And what happens to that son of man figure? He gets a throne right next to God - a clear statement that Jesus is a part of a "God-head". Why have you (and others) simply ignored this argument?

3. Jesus quoting from Psalm 110 before Caiaphus places Jesus sitting at the right hand of God - another clear indication that Jesus is a part of a "God-head". Why have you (and others) simply ignored this argument?

4. Jesus' declaration that He is the new temple is a clear claim that Jesus is the "place" where the presence of God can be found. Again, the Old Testament is clear about this - the temple is where the presence of God abides. Why have you (and others) simply ignored this argument?

You and MM have simply ignored these arguments. And I suggest that the reason is that you are unable to refute them. To the person who actually knows the Old Testament story, it is very clear that Jesus embodies the promised return of, yes, God (YHWH) to His people.

That makes Jesus "God" - and you cannot have this, so you choose to ignore the arguments.

Drew,

Unfortunately, these two characters are not interested in being open to our explanations, even when simplified. Shad associates Trinitarians with murdering persecutors, so they cannot possibly be right, no matter what the Bible says. And MM? He has his own uncorrupted bible in his head, so how can you argue with that?

Regards

------------

One should never argue against the truth, because its fruitless.

How about your and Drew sticking to the topic of this thread ? !

Where is the trinity ?

So far, all I see is some trying to make Jesus a god.
 
Mysteryman said:
One should never argue against the truth, because its fruitless.
What are you saying here? That your position is self-evidently true and that therefore all detailed Biblical arguments that Jesus is indeed "God" are ruled out without actually engaging them?

Mysteryman said:
How about your and Drew sticking to the topic of this thread ? !

Where is the trinity ?

So far, all I see is some trying to make Jesus a god.
We are, of course, bang on the topic. Arguments - and Biblical ones at that - that show that Jesus perfectly fits the Old Testament image of God are obviously directly relevant to establishing at least a "Binity".

You shamelessly continue to ignore these arguments as if they will magically "go away" if you close your eyes and wish hard enough.

Good luck with that.
 
Drew,
Why have you and MM ignored my series of detailed arguments that make the case that Jesus fulfills Old Testament "images" or models that describe God.

1. Jesus' journey to Jerusalem clearly maps to the Old Testament theme of the return of YHWH to His people. This makes Jesus the embodiment of Israel's God. Why have you (and others) simply ignored this argument?

Would you be more specific about this with the verse(s), please?

2. Jesus quoting from Daniel 7 before Caiaphus places Jesus in the "son of man" role from that famous Old Testament chapter. And what happens to that son of man figure? He gets a throne right next to God - a clear statement that Jesus is a part of a "God-head". Why have you (and others) simply ignored this argument?

Jesus is next to God as second hand. This clearly states Jesus is not equal. Remember the trinitarians are claiming Jesus is equal to God the Father, not second in charge.

3. Jesus quoting from Psalm 110 before Caiaphus places Jesus sitting at the right hand of God - another clear indication that Jesus is a part of a "God-head". Why have you (and others) simply ignored this argument?

The same as the above.

4. Jesus' declaration that He is the new temple is a clear claim that Jesus is the "place" where the presence of God can be found. Again, the Old Testament is clear about this - the temple is where the presence of God abides. Why have you (and others) simply ignored this argument?

Scripture please.

You and MM have simply ignored these arguments. And I suggest that the reason is that you are unable to refute them. To the person who actually knows the Old Testament story, it is very clear that Jesus embodies the promised return of, yes, God (YHWH) to His people.
That makes Jesus "God" - and you cannot have this, so you choose to ignore the arguments.

I am talking about the errors of trinitarians' claim that Jesus is equal with His Father.
 
shad said:
Drew,
Why have you and MM ignored my series of detailed arguments that make the case that Jesus fulfills Old Testament "images" or models that describe God.

1. Jesus' journey to Jerusalem clearly maps to the Old Testament theme of the return of YHWH to His people. This makes Jesus the embodiment of Israel's God. Why have you (and others) simply ignored this argument?

Would you be more specific about this with the verse(s), please?
I have already provided a detailed argument spanning two posts - see the last post on page 1 and the first post on page 2.

Please tell me where I have gone wrong in my arguments.
 
Mysteryman said:
dadof10 said:
Mysteryman said:
There is nothing like context in order to see the whole picutre !

John 8:50 - And I seek not mine own glory : there is one that seeketh and judgeth

John 8:51 - Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death

John 8:52 - Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets ; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste death

What they didn't realize, is that Jesus was speaking spiritually and not literally.

John 8:53 - Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead ? and the prophets are dead : whom makest thou thyself ?

John 8:54 - Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing : it is my Father that honoureth me ; of whom ye say, that he is your God

John 8:55 - Yet ye have not known him ; but I know him : and If I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you : but I know him, and keep his saying Jesus Christ is telling them, that he knows the Father, who is God. Even Jesus here says, that he keeps his Father's sayings. Not his own sayings, but his Father's sayings, who is God !

These Jews who claimed to know God, but didn't, also didn't know who Jesus Christ the Son of God was. This is why they misunderstood him and wanted to stone him.

We have people who call themselves christians, who claim to know God, and do not ! Focus on verse 50 ! This is a good starting point.

The Jews "misunderstood" Him in what way? Did they only THINK He was claiming equality with God? Is that why they attempted to stone Him, over a misunderstanding?


Life is funny - :biglaugh

Focus on verse 50 as a starting point !

Why can't you answer a simple question. I asked WHAT THE JEWS MISUNDERSTOOD. What did Jesus say that they took the wrong way? What did they THINK He said that deserved the death penalty?

They were having a conversation up until Jesus said "...before Abraham was, I am." Was this the misunderstanding?
 
Drew said:
I have already provided a detailed argument spanning two posts - see the last post on page 1 and the first post on page 2.

Please tell me where I have gone wrong in my arguments.

Which thread, this one?
 
shad said:
Drew said:
I have already provided a detailed argument spanning two posts - see the last post on page 1 and the first post on page 2.

Please tell me where I have gone wrong in my arguments.

Which thread, this one?
Yes, this one.
 
Drew said:
Post 1 of 2 presenting an argument for Jesus' divinity:

One Old Testament theme is often overlooked is the theme of the promised return of YHWH to Zion – that though God has abandoned His people through the exile, He will, one day, return to them. A wide range of Old Testament texts embody this hope. Here are just two:
Ezekiel 43:1-7:

Then he led me to the gate, the gate facing toward the east; 2and behold, the glory of the God of Israel was coming from the way of the east And His voice was like the sound of many waters; and the earth shone with His glory. 3And it was like the appearance of the vision which I saw, like the vision which I saw when He came to destroy the city And the visions were like the vision which I saw by the river Chebar; and I fell on my face. 4And the glory of the LORD came into the house by the way of the gate facing toward the east. 5And the Spirit lifted me up and brought me into the inner court; and behold, the glory of the LORD filled the house. 6Then I heard one speaking to me from the house, while a man was standing beside me. 7He said to me, "Son of man, this is the place of My throne and the place of the soles of My feet, where I will dwell among the sons of Israel forever And the house of Israel will not again defile My holy name, neither they nor their kings, by their harlotry and by the corpses of their kings when they die,…

Remember the context. The Jews are in a state of exile. The temple had been abandoned by God and destroyed. This vision given to Ezekiel constitutes a promise that God will return to inhabit the “temple†once more.

Behold, I am going to send My messenger, and he will clear the way before Me And the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple; and the messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming," says the LORD of hosts. 2"But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap.

This material, just like the Ezekiel text, was written during the time of exile. Once more we have a promised return of God to the temple.

These and other texts express a deep hope of the Jewish nation – the God that had abandoned them will one day return to them. When we forget such expectations, and reduce the discussion of Jesus’ divinity to technical matters about the boundaries between the concept of “man†and of “godâ€, we entirely overlook what really matters – the Jewish matrix of expectation into which Jesus was born. I suggest the Biblically literate 1st century Jew would be anticipating this return. If that Jew were being true to the Biblical tradition, he would at least be open to the possibility that YHWH might return to His people in the form of a “humanâ€. From the famous throne chariot vision of Ezekiel 1:

And there came a voice from above the expanse that was over their heads; whenever they stood still, they dropped their wings. 26Now above the expanse that was over their heads there was something resembling a throne, like lapis lazuli in appearance; and on that which resembled a throne, high up, was a figure with the appearance of a man.

I want to be clear: this and other texts such as Daniel 7 only hint at a possibility - there is no strong and pervasive theme in the Old Testament that clearly anticipates the notion of God incarnated in the form of man. But, and this is key, neither is such a possibility over-ruled, with texts like this one from Ezekiel and the one from Daniel 7 giving the hint of the possibility a divine human figure.

This is why arguments against Jesus’ divinity that are grounded in conceptual distinction entirely miss the point (e.g. Jesus is man, and a man cannot be God, Jesus is the “son†of God and therefore cannot be God, etc.). The real issue is the grand plan of covenantal redemption that we see woven through both testaments. If honouring the coherence of that story leads us to see Jesus as divine, so be it – the conceptual distinctions are derivative, not fundamental.

As I will argue in the next post, Jesus clearly sees Himself as fitting into the story in a specific way – it is His life’s work to embody the promised return of YHWH to Zion. And that makes Him “divineâ€, with divinity understood in the appropriate framework – not the framework of conceptual categories that have little connection to large Biblical narrative of covenantal redemption, but rather in the context of a God who promised to return to His people. In that framework, we have a young Jew named Jesus who saw Himself as called to the vocation of implementing that promised return.


so what is your question about this post to me??
 
Quote Drew : "What are you saying here? That your position is self-evidently true and that therefore all detailed Biblical arguments that Jesus is indeed "God" are ruled out without actually engaging them? "
----------------------------

Drew :

This is so funny I almost can't stop laughing. I presented for you with many verses in the book of Hebrews and as of yet, you have not responded. I guess I will have to be patient and wait a bit longer. Sorry if it appears as if I am rushing you. That is not my intent. Take as much time as you deem necessary.
:ohwell
 
shad said:
so what is your question about this post to me??
My argument is that Jesus is the embodiment of Israel's God returning to His people. That makes Him "God" in essence.
 
Mysteryman said:
This is so funny I almost can't stop laughing. I presented for you with many verses in the book of Hebrews and as of yet, you have not responded. I guess I will have to be patient and wait a bit longer. Sorry if it appears as if I am rushing you. That is not my intent. Take as much time as you deem necessary.
:ohwell
Nice try.

You posted verses with no arguments . It is not my job to make your case for you. Now tell us why you think those verse deny Jesus' "God-ness" and then we'll talk.

But you are still not explaining why you persist in refusing to engage my detailed arguments.

Could it be that you can find no error in them?
 
Mysteryman said:
:rolling I can not tell you how many times you have ignored what myself and others have tried to explain to you. :rolling

You flatter yourself with pride. :biglol
No, I flatter myself with the facts.

You have demonstrably refused to engage a number of my arguments. The transcipt of this thread proves this. So please do not insult our intelligence.

Now, I may have not addressed each and every point you have made - that's a separate issue. But if you want to point to any post where you make an actual argument, not where you simply post verse references, I will be happy to engage such arguments.
 
Drew said:
Mysteryman said:
This is so funny I almost can't stop laughing. I presented for you with many verses in the book of Hebrews and as of yet, you have not responded. I guess I will have to be patient and wait a bit longer. Sorry if it appears as if I am rushing you. That is not my intent. Take as much time as you deem necessary.
:ohwell
Nice try.

You posted verses with no arguments . It is not my job to make your case for you. Now tell us why you think those verse deny Jesus' "God-ness" and then we'll talk.

But you are still not explaining why you persist in refusing to engage my detailed arguments.

Could it be that you can find no error in them?

Drew

I am engaging you, but I am doing it -- My Way !

Take your time Drew, read over those verses I gave you in the book of Hebrews, while I await your reply.

Take your time, no hurry. However, forever would be a long time - :rolling
 
Drew said:
shad said:
so what is your question about this post to me??
My argument is that Jesus is the embodiment of Israel's God returning to His people. That makes Him "God" in essence.

God entrust Jesus for just about everything concerning restoration. That does not make Him equal with His Father.

Without His Father there is no salvation. All power and authority come from the Father. Got the Father is the source of everything.
 
Mysteryman said:
Take your time Drew, read over those verses I gave you in the book of Hebrews, while I await your reply.
I am not going to play this game with you.

Presenting verse references is not making a case. If you want to make an actual argument about those verses, please do so. Then I will respond.

Why are you not responding to my arguments? I suggest that the reason is this: you can find no error in them.

But please, prove me wrong - engage my arguments and explain to me and other posters how I have erred in arguing that Jesus is the embodiment of Israel's God, the new temple where the very presence of God dwells.

Did Jesus not say that he was the cornerstone of the new temple?

Does the Old Testament not teach that the temple is place where the presence of God abides?
 
Drew said:
Mysteryman said:
Take your time Drew, read over those verses I gave you in the book of Hebrews, while I await your reply.
I am not going to play this game with you.

Presenting verse references is not making a case. If you want to make an actual argument about those verses, please do so. Then I will respond.

Why are you not responding to my arguments? I suggest that the reason is this: you can find no error in them.

But please, prove me wrong - engage my arguments and explain to me and other posters how I have erred in arguing that Jesus is the embodiment of Israel's God, the new temple where the very presence of God dwells.

Did Jesus not say that he was the cornerstone of the new temple?

Does the Old Testament not teach that the temple is place where the presence of God abides?


Drew

I rest my case. I try an engage with you and you refuse. Hebrews 3:1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & 5 & 6 & 7 and especially verses 8 and 10 and 11.
 
Mysteryman said:
Ah heck, read the whole chapter of Hebrews 3. And all those other verses I gave you in the book of Hebrews.
Unless you are prepared to make your own case, and not just quote verses, we have nothing further to discuss.

And the fact that you refuse to even engage detailed Biblical arguments that challenge your position strongly suggests that those arguments have you cornered.
 
Question from Drew : "Does the Old Testament not teach that the temple is place where the presence of God abides?"

Answer from MM :

I Kings 8:27
 
Drew said:
Post 2 of 2 of an argument for the divinity of Jesus:

Much of the gospel of Luke is the story of Jesus’ journey to Jerusalem. Towards the end of that journey, Jesus tells the parable of the returning king – the story of a king who goes away and then returns to call his servants to account. This parable is found in Luke 19:11 and following.

This parable has almost universally been understood to constitute a statement by Jesus that He will go away, though crucifixion, resurrection, and then ascension, only to return in the future (i.e. in the 2nd coming). On such a reading, Jesus sets Himself, as He tells the parable, in the role of the king who is about to leave.

I suggest this is not the correct reading. Instead, we should understand that in telling the parable, Jesus is setting Himself in the role of the returning king, not the departing one. On such a reading, the departing king represents YHWH leaving his people by abandoning the temple and sending the Jews into exile, something that lies in the past of Jesus’ audience. If this interpretation is correct, Jesus can logically fill only one role in the parable: YHWH returning to Zion as promised. And this means, of course, that Jesus is the embodiment of Israel’s God.

Why should we read the parable this way? Well, for starters, the parable does not really work on its traditional reading. Note what happens to the third servant – all that he has is taken from him. This really cannot be reconciled with the notion that the returning King is Jesus at his 2nd coming, calling his people to account. Nowhere in the New Testament is there even the slightest suggestion that any of Jesus’ followers will be cast out and lose all at Jesus’ 2nd coming as the parable would seem to suggest on the traditional reading. It is clear from the scriptures that that believers who “build with hay and stubble†will still be saved. So it is very hard to make the parable work with Jesus as the King about to go away and return at a 2nd coming.

Besides, consideration of what happens next makes it clear that Jesus is setting himself in the role of the returning king. Note what happens after parable is told – Jesus rides on to Jerusalem and, upon seeing it, says the following:

"If you had known in this day, even you, the things which make for peace! But now they have been hidden from your eyes. 43"For the days will come upon you when your enemies will throw up a barricade against you, and surround you and hem you in on every side, 44and they will level you to the ground and your children within you, and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not recognize the time of your visitation."

Clearly, Jesus sees Himself as the King returning in visitation, returning to judge Jerusalem who is set in the role of the unfaithful 3rd servant. If, as many believe, the returning King in the parable is Jesus at His second coming, then it would be deeply misleading for Jesus to give the parable then immediately ride into Jerusalem as He does, to palm branches waving no less, with all the imagery of a returning King that this action clearly evokes. No. Jesus clearly intends his listeners to understand that He is the returning King, not the departing one. In giving this parable and then riding into the royal city as a king, Jesus is clearly telling us that He, through this teaching and these actions, is embodying the fulfillment of the hoped for return of YHWH to his people. And what does Jesus do next?:

Then he entered the temple area and began driving out those who were selling. 46"It is written," he said to them, " 'My house will be a house of prayer'; but you have made it 'a den of robbers.'

Note how this maps perfectly to this prophecy about the return of YHWH to his people:

Behold, I am going to send My messenger, and he will clear the way before Me And the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple; and the messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming," says the LORD of hosts. 2"But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap.

The overall picture is clear. As per an earlier post, we have the strong Biblical tradition of the promised return of YHWH to Zion (and his temple) after the time of the exile. Now here, in Luke, we have the journey of a young Jew named Jesus to Jerusalem. As He is about to enter, He tells a parable of a king who goes away and then returns. Next, He laments over Jerusalem and declares that she is not recognizing His mission as a “visitationâ€. In the context of Jews who saw themselves still in exile, and still awaiting the return of YHWH, Jesus’ intended meaning is clear. In saying that Jerusalem has not recognized her visitation, He is saying that she has failed to recognize that, in His very actions, the promised return of YHWH to Zion is being fulfilled. And then Jesus enters the temple and overturns the tables in judgement, fulfilling the Malach 3 promise that YHWH will come suddenly to the temple in judgement. The coherence of this picture is compelling. Jesus is embodying the return of YHWH to Zion. And that, of course, makes Him the embodiment of Israel’s God.

This is why arguments like “Jesus cannot be divine since Jesus was tempted and God cannot be tempted†are a spectacular exercise in missing the point. Such arguments assume a model for the nature of God-hood and human-ness and then leverage that assumption to make the case against Jesus’ divinity. Well, we should be getting our concepts of who YHWH is from the Old Testament, not from conceptual definitions with no connection to the Jewish worldview. And in the Old Testament, YHWH is the one who has left His people and promised to return. When Jesus, then, so obviously sees Himself as embodying that promised return, that, and not vague conceptual arguments, makes the case that Jesus sees Himself as the incarnation of Israel’s God. Again, the conceptual arguments you make are deeply misleading since they are built on a model of the “boundaries†between god and man that make no reference at all to the Scriptures.
So Drew,
What is your question for me with this post?
 
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