A Christian Marriage: wives submitting to a Godly Husband - why not?

[theLords]

Nick, (if this is O/T hit delete) what does it mean for your future wife to submit to you? What is it that you think it looks like and are expecting? How would you handle an un-submissive wife?

 

[Sparkey]

I do agree with Caroline that while it would be helpful for older women with experiences in this kind of thing to instruct and teach younger women (very important these days) I also feel that it is anybody's right (and privellige) to teach this, as any other scripture is taught. I do see what you're saying, but I also think that that is not hte only wya in which it can or should be taught. Young women (or any woman) these days are so pressured by the world in this area that they need all the help and guidence that they can get.

For the record, I also agree that it is acceptable to follow after Paul's example (he was NOT an elder woman) and to teach right principles of God. Again, and I have apologized already, I am very sorry to have not made myself clear in my first post. Pray, brother, forgive me. It was not my intent even in the slightest to censor nor chastise you. I have been corrected, please allow me now to stand corrected.

~Sparrow

What's that old saying? "The proof is in the pudding?"
... [deleted by Sparrow]
It is my thought that men of God must first turn their hearts --> not only to God but to their children in truth. When women see the hearts of their children turn (in truth) to their fathers.... Then, and only then, will we fully know the benefit of godliness. Submission to God and to all authority only makes sense when we understand the function --> to raise healthy children.

 

[Sparkey]

I agree that this is not just talking about Godly husbands. As a Christian woman submits to her husband, she truly can show him the love of Christ.

However, I do think it is very important to point out that nowhere in Scripture is a woman commanded to "obey" her husband. Rather, godly women are to submit to their husbands. There is a difference. Wives are not slaves, not children and submission is far more about a voluntary decision to follow the husband's lead rather than obedience. This is why the texts translate the word as submit rather than obey.



A Christian husband will not "lord" it over his wife. Now, a non-Christian husband might, and if he does, then a Christian woman must still submit, but in Christian marriage the only lord is Jesus.

Greetings Handy,

Submission isn't something that is directed at women only, as you know. And you are correct that a woman is not directly commanded to "obey" her husband. I would point out though that all Christians are to obey all authority over them. Obedience to authority was not the point that was being made when the Lord spoke to wives. I think being willing to yield is a better way of understanding the relationship between a man and a woman than any attempt to establish a power (lord it over) position of one OVER another.

I'm not writing well these days and seem to not be making myself clear enough but yielding and willingness to yield is critical for both parties to the union. When I think about how a car merges onto a freeway the concept of "yielding" becomes more clear (to me). There is a lot of finesse involved and one of the most important things is being considerate of others. Men (who declare themselves 'godly') MUST be yielded to God first. It's like cleaning the inside of the cup. They (men and women both) will be established by God who will provide wisdom and the couple, in agreement, can walk together with Him to fulfill another command, to be fruitful and multiply. If one were to fall the other can carry. It's not about gender (I'm pretty sure you will agree). It's about raising children in Lord and letting them witness love, originating from God, flow through them, each to the other.

~Sparrow

 

[handy]

Sparrow, I think willing to yield is a very good way of defining the Biblical concept of submission...men to God, younger men to older men, younger women to older women, and yes, wives to husbands.

I think when we resist the Biblical idea of wives submitting to husbands, we miss out on one of the most basic foundations for a happy and fulfilling marriage.

But...(yep, now I'm gonna get cranky ) the feminist movement and the modern resistance to wifely submission is the church's fault.

Yes, the church's fault. I grew up thinking that the marriage vows we all are familiar with "husband, do you vow to love and honor your wife" ..."wife, do you vow to love, honor and OBEY your husband" was actually in the Bible. I must have been a Christian for over 15 years before I finally had a pastor who preached the correct Biblical concept of wifely submission and that wifely submission if a far, far different thing that obedience. Why the church so allow wives to become little more than chattel and ranked not all that far above the kids and the servants is beyond me, but a quick look in any history book will show that the church did. I think the sinful male domination of women so prevalent throughout the world entered into the church and corrupted what was to be God's plan for marriage. But then, godly marriage has been attacked ever since the serpent by-passed Adam and deceived Eve.

 

[Sparkey]

The title of the thread includes a question, albeit a rhetorical one: Why Not?

Seems to me this isn't rhetorical. The why not of submission is that it is natural for us to know the difference between Godly authority (rightly submitted to him) and man's attempt to rule over others. Can we recall any instance where Godly authority and purpose was accomplished by the anger of man? My impression as a little boy was that it was my mother who was to blame for the problems I sensed in my parents marriage. As a young man my thought was that female rebellion to men was the root of what I saw as "the problem". I grew up in the 60's and 70's so there was a lot of focus given to what was called then, "The Women's Liberation Movement."

Without submitting myself to God and following after Christ my voice was added to the "obey me" cacophony and din of the disobedient. Jesus rightly commands us, "If you love me, obey me." But what commands are we to obey? Love God above all else (even self) and love others as we love ourselves. Walk together toward our goal of holiness and become pleasing to him as we continue with the Mind of Christ. If men sublimate the command to deny themselves after their failure and then (as is often the case) externalize the failure in a vain attempt to control others where they could not control themselves they simply can not succeed. Who was told to go forth and subdue the world unto Christianity? lol - instead we see that it is imperative for our leaders to lead by example.

Handy, I don't see what you say as being "cranky" at all but instead view it as part of the healing process. What I notice is that even though you see the way things often are (especially in the world but also in the church) the Lord is showing you how godliness in men and women and our obedience to Him can make a difference. What seems remarkable to me still is when we read what God commands us to do we often focus on what God said to our spouse. It's almost like reading another person's mail, isn't it?

~Sparrow

 

[Nick]

No worries Sparrow And I very much agree with your insightful post in regards to my 'rhetorical question'. It was meant as a challenge - why shouldn't we follow the Bible's example? To most Christians, yes, it would be rhetorical. I appreciate your inisght. :yes

 

[Nick]

Nick, (if this is O/T hit delete) what does it mean for your future wife to submit to you? What is it that you think it looks like and are expecting? How would you handle an un-submissive wife?

Not O/T at all.

Well, for a wife to submit to their husband, I think what it's NOT is always obeying (as Sparrow and Dora put it) but yielding. Perhaps it's a game of follow the leader

1 Peter 3 (NIV) put it as a "gentle and quiet spirit". I think that ties in with the husbands being the leader of the marriage.

To be honest, I have trouble explaining what exactly it looks like for a wife to submit to their husband, but I see it in a lot of the married couples at church. It's something that you know it when you see it and you know it when it's not theire.
Someone might have more of an insight into that, however.

How I would handle an un-submissive wife is to pray for them. I would try to be a Godly example to them. As I stated in the OP, the Biblcial picture of a husband would have to be pretty hard to resist and not to submit to :twolove

 

[theLords]

Thanks Nick. I'm really trying to see it from the guy's perspective. I'm not really sure what it looks like either but have a desire to obey the Lord. It's hard to obey when you don't know what to do though

I'm going to try observing the couples in my church.

 

[Nick]

Thanks Nick. I'm really trying to see it from the guy's perspective. I'm not really sure what it looks like either but have a desire to obey the Lord. It's hard to obey when you don't know what to do though

I'm going to try observing the couples in my church.

I think that would be a good idea. I also think that if you genuinly desire to submit to your future husband, then the Holy Spirit will help guide you to know how, or point you to the right part in the Bible. God won't leave you alone in this.

 

[jasoncran]

Not O/T at all.

Well, for a wife to submit to their husband, I think what it's NOT is always obeying (as Sparrow and Dora put it) but yielding. Perhaps it's a game of follow the leader

1 Peter 3 (NIV) put it as a "gentle and quiet spirit". I think that ties in with the husbands being the leader of the marriage.

To be honest, I have trouble explaining what exactly it looks like for a wife to submit to their husband, but I see it in a lot of the married couples at church. It's something that you know it when you see it and you know it when it's not theire.
Someone might have more of an insight into that, however.

How I would handle an un-submissive wife is to pray for them. I would try to be a Godly example to them. As I stated in the OP, the Biblcial picture of a husband would have to be pretty hard to resist and not to submit to :twolove

no offense

you will see,lol

yup i thought that as well, find out that jason is just as much as the problem as my wife.

and yes that women who is unsubmissive is a lot more resistant to change as you think. you wont realise how you are till you get married.

its a reality check for me and i'm sure it will be for you.

self must die and trust me its not like click self dies. its more like awe man!! she gotta come first? or you know that and rebel.

 

[Nick]

no offense

you will see,lol

yup i thought that as well, find out that jason is just as much as the problem as my wife.

and yes that women who is unsubmissive is a lot more resistant to change as you think. you wont realise how you are till you get married.

its a reality check for me and i'm sure it will be for you.

self must die and trust me its not like click self dies. its more like awe man!! she gotta come first? or you know that and rebel.

I don't pretend to know what marriage is like and will gladly accept wisdom from married couplies. I certainly don't know what it is like to be in a marriage and have either a submissive with or an unsubmissive wife. However if the woman is just rebellious then to me she is less attractive, thus less chance of me marrying her.

 

[jasoncran]

best to avoid it if possible.

 

[Sparkey]

Ummm, Elijah, by submitting to my husband, I AM serving the Lord.

If you're not getting that, for whatever reason, I think we'll just nod and go our ways here.

I don't mean to single you out here, Handy -- but instead to point to the most remarkable and lovely things that I have had the privilege of seeing (ever). Consider the impossibility of what the Lord is doing as two walk together with Him.

Most men will proclaim every one his own goodness: but a faithful man who can find? [Proverbs 20:6 KJV]

Who can find a virtuous wife? For her worth is far above rubies. [Proverbs 31:10 NKJV]

 

[benjamin-benjamin]

what a heavily misuderstood concept... keep in mind i am married to a women who considered herself a hardcore feminist and wouldn't even wear the color pink because it was too "soft and society molded her to like it", one of our 1st "debates" was women involved in the front lines of war...
1st thing we must examine is who these verses are directed at (i know this seems obvious) but it as women, which 1st means that men should largely ignore it. More importantly the men are directed to love wives as Jesus loved the church, so here is the question. Do we convert people by saying "you must submit to Jesus" and telling people that they must submit to the church, etc... (well some might), but see no instances of Jesus "forcing" people to follow him, even when his disciples wanted to fight the romans, he stopped them.... So if we take this approach that means that women must want to "submit" the same way I want to submit to God. It also means that i fully submit to God, i still have an opinion, i still speak up, and i am still me.......

hopes this helps....

 

[Jael]

However, I do think it is very important to point out that nowhere in Scripture is a woman commanded to "obey" her husband. Rather, godly women are to submit to their husbands. There is a difference. Wives are not slaves, not children and submission is far more about a voluntary decision to follow the husband's lead rather than obedience. This is why the texts translate the word as submit rather than obey.

I am sincerely curious...what is your understanding of Titus 2:5?

Tts 2:3 The aged women likewise, that [they be] in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
Tts 2:4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
Tts 2:5 [To be] discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

 

[Mike]

I am sincerely curious...what is your understanding of Titus 2:5?

Tts 2:3 The aged women likewise, that [they be] in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
Tts 2:4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
Tts 2:5 [To be] discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

What version are you using? We're really supposed to cite the version. It's more than just a knit-picky thing. Actually, it's a copyright law, so we need to do it. In this case, it would help to have your version. The NIV uses the word "subject". I've always understood this to be a voluntary submission for harmony within the house, and not submission demanded by the husband.

 

[Gods Messenger]

I think what God is saying is that both the husband and wife make a total commitment to each other, which is a total commitment to God himself.:yes

 

[Jael]

What version are you using? We're really supposed to cite the version. It's more than just a knit-picky thing. Actually, it's a copyright law, so we need to do it. In this case, it would help to have your version. The NIV uses the word "subject". I've always understood this to be a voluntary submission for harmony within the house, and not submission demanded by the husband.

I'm sorry, I read the forum rules which stated "All Bible verses and passages must be referenced (NASB, NIV, etc.) unless it is public domain like the KJV, YLT, etc." I am using the KJV so I thought it was okay not to cite it, but I'll be sure to so in the future.

I totally agree that submission is voluntary and not to be demanded. I am just trying to reconcile this verse with the idea that obedience is not part of that voluntary submission. It seems that the older women were told to teach the younger to be "obedient" (or "subject" as translated in the NIV) to their husbands. For sure this would not be the forced obedience of a slave, nor an involuntary subjection enforced by the husband, but a voluntary choice to be "subject" (and that word does carry a connotation that obedience is owed to the one you are subject to).

So is obedience or subjection not part of a wife's voluntary submission?

 

[Sparkey]

Sidepoint: Copyright Law

I'm sorry, I read the forum rules which stated "All Bible verses and passages must be referenced (NASB, NIV, etc.) unless it is public domain like the KJV, YLT, etc." I am using the KJV so I thought it was okay not to cite it, but I'll be sure to so in the future.

Copyright protection does not last forever. Subject to certain exceptions, public domain works may be freely copied or used to create derivative works without need to obtain permission from the former copyright holder(s). This does not address intellectual honesty and we should quote our sources, not only for things we cut-n-paste but also for the concepts that we express. For those writings in the Public Domain, simple indenting or containing a passage in a quote box is sufficient.

Mike, as a Moderator, do you know of any law or CF.Net policy that I'm ignorant of please? If there is a policy that demands citation as you state, I'd be interested to see it and to know the basis.

Cordially,
~Sparrow

 

[handy]

I am sincerely curious...what is your understanding of Titus 2:5?

Tts 2:3 The aged women likewise, that [they be] in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
Tts 2:4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
Tts 2:5 [To be] discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

The word hypotasso translated as obedient in this scripture is actually the same word translated as submit in Ephesians 5 and Colossians 3 when referring to wives and husbands. This word is different from the word hypakouo translated as obey when speaking of children obeying their parents or a servant obeying his master.

So is obedience or subjection not part of a wife's voluntary submission?

It's a matter of semantics, but semantics become important in this case. What is the difference between obedience and submission? Obedience is demanded. Submission is given. If my husband wants me to attend a church that I don't want to attend, I will submit to him and go, because it is important that, as the wife and helpmeet, I support my husband and submit to him. If my kids don't want to go to church because they think it's boring...they don't have a choice, they are kids, they will obey us and go to church.