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honeslty part of me feels the same with Iraq. i know that it wasn't perfect over there but the potus just let them go and not gives us a sofa agreement.now they want us back and we told them it would go to hell when we leave.
 
Mike S said:
I agree with you. I was in the Pacific for three years of the Vietnam War. I know that militarily we won the war, we lost it politically. It's very difficult for a democratic society to maintain a willingness to support a war when folks at home don't see vital national interests involved.
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it broke the military very much and demoralized it so bad that it took REGEAN to get us to feel like a wining army again.
 
Claudya said:
It seems a good idea to have an internationally recognised organisation that can check&balance, coordinate and mandate international military operations. But that's what the UN should be doing.
The Balkan wars were a difficult situation. The question is, does some international community, NATO or UN or EU have the right to intervene into a war or civil war to stop the killing (especially systematic geocide of civilians) and thus save lives? Or is that an illegal interference in the autonomy of that country?


It's very hard to understand a country huge and diverse as the USA. I barely understand my own country to be honest.
However, there is a lot of anti-American sentiment in people here. It was worse during the Bush era, but it's not gone now.
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You're right, Claudya, America is a far more diverse country than people realize. It's easier to just find something to be angry about and then form a stereotype. It happens here too, judging European societies without really knowing much about them.

In truth, though, the anti-American culture in Europe has been with us from the very beginning. If you read some of the early writings from the 1500s,1600s and 1700s, the smugness of European leaders was right up front. Everything was bigger, better, more sophisticated, etc. in Europe than America could ever dream of. That attitude fades for awhile but it doesn't take much for it to rise up again.
 
jasoncran said:
honeslty part of me feels the same with Iraq. i know that it wasn't perfect over there but the potus just let them go and not gives us a sofa agreement.now they want us back and we told them it would go to hell when we leave.
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I agree. That war was always a high risk project. It's nearly impossible to reshape a country into one having democratic values when there is no history of it there. A lot of political and cultural infrastructure has to be there to build on, and it wasn't there in Iraq.
 
well the eu forgets that Iraq and iran and a lot of that was from brittain and French meddling in the affiars of arabs. not that we didn't do that too but they cant just say we are above that.
 
In North America, ppl look on a map and see Europe. Half of it was part of the Warsaw Pact in the Cold War. In Western Europe, the British are half-hearted about belonging to the European Union, the Irish are neutral.

So when a US Congressman makes a speech about 'Europe', it will mean a whole bunch of different things, to a lot of different Europeans running and sitting facing all directions.

So when the Clinton Administration intervened - successfully - to stop genocide in the former Yugoslavia (on the map: part of Europe), the perception was that it was in Europe's backyard.

Except that historically, northern and western Europeans have not bothered much about what happened in the Balkans - until it was too late. The usual reaction for a long time has been: Oh, those guys down there in the Balkans; they're always wanting to fight each other.

Up here in Canada - yawn, yawn - in 1914 a whole lot of troops were suddenly recruited because obscure and unknown folk in the Balkans were in dispute in Bosnia, causing Russia (allied to France and Great Britain) to side with one faction and Austria-Hungary and Germany to side with the other.

Two world wars later, most northern and western Europeans have tended to think:

"I don't CARE why rival factions in the Balkans want to fight each other: if they do, they will have to do so without our help."

Except that this does not consider the consequences of what may eventually happen. In the longer term, there will likely be consequences for all of Europe, in possible situations that western and northern Europeans could have less influence over.

The same with those who call for the US pulling out of Europe. In the longer term there would be disadvantageous consequences for the US, again, possible situations that the US could have less influence over.

It makes me angry, sure. But this is how it is.

Blessings.
 
Mike S said:
I agree with you. I was in the Pacific for three years of the Vietnam War. I know that militarily we won the war, we lost it politically. It's very difficult for a democratic society to maintain a willingness to support a war when folks at home don't see vital national interests involved.
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You don't know half of it, friend!

EVERY battle that involved US troops, the US won. But you could not tell that to the idiots back home. While in SF for a week, waiting to go over seas, I was called a "baby killer" because my "white side walls" were such a standout among the Haight-Ashbury crowd.

Once over there we saw and heard of pilots and buddies dying while the Animals sung " Sky Pilot"

He blesses the boys as they stand in line
The smell of gun grease and the bayonets they shine
He's there to help them all that he can
To make them feel wanted he's a good holy man​

Sky pilot.....sky pilot
How high can you fly
You'll never, never, never reach the sky
He smiles at the young soldiers

Tells them its all right
He knows of their fear in the forthcoming fight
Soon there'll be blood and many will die
Mothers and fathers back home they will cry

Sky pilot.....sky pilot
How high can you fly
You'll never, never, never reach the sky
He mumbles a prayer and it ends with a smile

The order is given
They move down the line
But he's still behind and he'll meditate
But it won't stop the bleeding or ease the hate

As the young men move out into the battle zone
He feels good, with God you're never alone
He feels tired and he lays on his bed
Hopes the men will find courage in the words that he said

Sky pilot... sky Pilot
How high can you fly
You'll never, never, never reach the sky​

And Gracie Slick of Jefferson Airplane wrote and sung "White Rabbit"

One pill makes you larger
And one pill makes you small
And the ones that mother gives you
Don't do anything at all
Go ask Alice, when she's ten feet tall

And if you go chasing rabbits
And you know you're going to fall
Tell 'em a hookah smoking caterpillar
Has given you the call
To call Alice, when she was just small

When the men on the chessboard get up
And tell you where to go
And you've just had some kind of mushroom
And your mind is moving low

Go ask Alice, I think she'll know

When logic and proportion have fallen sloppy dead
And the white knight is talking backwards
And the red queen's off with her head
Remember what the dormouse said
Feed your head,
Feed your head​

Never before or since has so many members of the US Military been so scorned by so many people in their own homeland.

Indeed we are a unique group here, and those of us who went through high school, graduating in 1965 and beyond went through some of the most turbulent changes ever in our country's history.

That is my 2 cents.
 
I was born at the end of 1973, I was trained by a bunch of nam vets. my second first sgt in the army was a nam vet.so I heard the stories and I do think that they were done wrong.
 
I recently took an online history class in college and we had a textbook but also videos that went along with it. In one of the videos someone said that we won the Vietnam war when the Berlin Wall fell. If I remember right it was even a question on one of the test. Anyone ever heard of this?
 
jeff77 said:
I recently took an online history class in college and we had a textbook but also videos that went along with it. In one of the videos someone said that we won the Vietnam war when the Berlin Wall fell. If I remember right it was even a question on one of the test. Anyone ever heard of this?
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nam ended in 73, and the berlin wall fell in 89. I was 16 when that happened.
 
jasoncran said:
nam ended in 73, and the berlin wall fell in 89. I was 16 when that happened.
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I know, that's why I thought it was strange. I think it was a professor that said it. Something about Vietnam being seen as a failure at the time,but when the wall fell and the cold war ended it was proof that Vietnam was a success.
 
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